What is Traveller status in Ireland?

sasta le

How does one get status as a Traveller.?

Mr. Incognito

You are born to Traveller parents

Annasopra

What do you mean op?

Mr. Incognito

Its a recognised ethnic group. If you are not born into it I cant see how you can apply.

Peregrinus

sasta le wrote: »

How does one get status as a Traveller.?

In what context, or for what purpose?

nuac

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Its a recognised ethnic group. If you are not born into it I cant see how you can apply.

when did that happen?

234

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Its a recognised ethnic group. If you are not born into it I cant see how you can apply.

nuac wrote: »

when did that happen?

Here is the definition from the Equal Status Act, 2000:

“Traveller community” means the community of people who are commonly called Travellers and who are identified (both by themselves and others) as people with a shared history, culture and traditions including, historically, a nomadic way of life on the island of Ireland

In the unlikely event that you joined, rather than being born into, the Travelling community, then you could plausibly come within the definition.

Chemical Byrne

This is something I wondered about before. We all know what a traveler is and everything but how do you define it? What is the criteria for being one?

The definition given above is fairly vague and imprecise. Accordingly, if i got the notion, I could just decide that I do identify with traveler culture and nomadic life and then approach the DSP or whoever and apply for whatever traveler specific schemes are going and they would be obliged to give it to me since membership of the community is self decided and not subject to any hard and fast rules.
Can't imagine too many going for it.

234

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

This is something I wondered about before. We all know what a traveler is and everything but how do you define it? What is the criteria for being one?

The definition given above is fairly vague and imprecise. Accordingly, if i got the notion, I could just decide that I do identify with traveler culture and nomadic life and then approach the DSP or whoever and apply for whatever traveler specific schemes are going and they would be obliged to give it to me since membership of the community is self decided and not subject to any hard and fast rules.
Can't imagine too many going for it.

Not quite. Not the conjunctive use of "and" rather than "or." So the opinions of others must support your claim too.

Secondly, in each case, if you claim was not correct on its face you are going to have to produce evidence to support the criteria listed above. So unless you can point to being born into the community you would likely have to produce credible evidence if integration if you are going to satisfy others that the claim is not entirely spurious.

Just because the definition references belief doesn't mean that you don't have to produce evidence to support the sincerity of that belief.

Gran Hermano

A group of students form a college students society to promote and embrace the traveller lifestyle. It may not be related to the traditional Irish traveller lifestyle. It is based on a common set of beliefs shared and recognised by all society members.

What is preventing above students claiming traveller status?

conorh91

With the proviso that I don't actually know anything about the law in this area, except for a quick read of a couple of cases just now, it seems that the Irish and the UK courts have both indicated that you may elect to adhere to an ethnic group, whether by marriage or by simply adapting their ways.

It would make an interesting case were someone to argue they were discriminated against after electing to go about their life as a traveller. How would this be proven in court? We have to use our imagination.

The Government haven't officially recognized the travellers as a distinct ethnic group, but this is of doubtful relevance. The courts appear willing to recognize groups as ethnic groups for the purpose of administering justice, and possibly have already recognized the Travellers as such.

In 2011, an appeal from the Equality Tribunal came before the High Court, in the case of a Tipperary man, who argued that he had been the victim of racial discrimination.

To which race did he belong?—"The farming community (an ethnic group)", he replied.

Needless to say his plainly ridiculous appeal was dismissed, but Hogan J did speculate on how an ethnic group might be defined. I doubt that many judges with a High Court caseload would have written such an extensive judgment, which can be summed up by saying that an ethnic group is a "distinctive and self-conscious community" and that the term "ethnic origins" refers…

"principally to immutable characteristics in respect of which the individual has no control. It must, of course, be recognized that there are undoubtedly instances where an individual belonging to one nationality or ethnic group might elect to adhere to another…."

FitzGerald v Minister for Community, Equality & Gaeltacht Affairs [2011] IEHC 180

sasta le

I've read and heard the phase so wondered how its works or how you get it.It gets the travellers benefits also

Peregrinus

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

This is something I wondered about before. We all know what a traveler is and everything but how do you define it? What is the criteria for being one?

The definition given above is fairly vague and imprecise. Accordingly, if i got the notion, I could just decide that I do identify with traveler culture and nomadic life and then approach the DSP or whoever and apply for whatever traveler specific schemes are going and they would be obliged to give it to me since membership of the community is self decided and not subject to any hard and fast rules.

No. The definition doesn't define an individual traveller; it defines the traveller community. And the whole point about a community is that it's defined collectively, not individually. I can't unilaterally decide that I am Jewish/Polish/a Traveller/whatever and require the rest of the world to accept my decision. I have to actually, factually, participate in the community, which requires that the community accept me as Jewish/Polish/a Traveller/whatever. You don't decide unilaterally whether you're a member of the Traveller community; the Traveller community does.

Ken.

As far as I can see its something that could only be contested in court. For example you get sacked from a job and bring the work place to court saying they sacked you because you're a traveller. Either they except you're a traveller or laugh themselves stupid at you.

sasta le

So Travellers have to apply for and then prove it

234

sasta le wrote: »

So Travellers have to apply for and then prove it

Can you provide a specific reference to what members of the Travelling community might be applying for that is contingent on their status?

sasta le

Its on college applications housing funding for stables etc
Very much in the news this week

Annasopra

sasta le wrote: »

Its on college applications housing funding for stables etc
Very much in the news this week

an example?

sasta le

They get housing stables education transport to schools provided so theu must have to prove it when applying

sasta le

Traveller Community Access Programme (TCAP)

We have developed a Traveller Community Access Programme (TCAP) which aims to increase the participation and success rates of members of the Traveller community* in third level educational programmes. This programme commenced in 2006.

School leavers must apply via the CAO (application deadline is 1 February 2015). School leavers must also complete the TCAP Application Form. The deadline for submitting this form is Friday, 27 February 2015.
Non-school leavers apply via the TCAP Application Form. The deadline for submitting this form is Friday, 27 February 2015.

*Our understanding of the Traveller community is defined by the Equal Status Acts 2000 - 2011, which defines the community as follows:
People who are commonly called Travellers, who are identified both by Travellers and others as people with a shared history, culture and traditions, identified historically as a nomadic way of life on the Island of Ireland.

Thats for third level so how is it proved?

the world wonders

sasta le wrote: »

Thats for third level so how is it proved?

I guess they'd ask you a bunch of questions about your family background, your relatives and your parents' occupations? And if there was any doubt, they might even ask your friends, relatives, referees or even prominent travellers if they identified you as a member of the travelling community?

Really it's not rocket science -- if your mummy is a doctor and your daddy is a solicitor and you live in a three-bed semi in Foxrock and you want a shortcut into the RCSI because your grind school didn't get the points you needed, then feck off, you're not a traveller.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

sasta le

So i want a horse stable build for me i can apply?

johnnyskeleton

sasta le wrote: »

They get housing stables education transport to schools provided so theu must have to prove it when applying

First of all, kudos for forgetting about this burning issue for 9 months and coming back to it!

Second, you know the way off licences sell alcohol to people who look over 18 and when its a margin call they ask for ID, same kinda thing here.

the world wonders

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

So here's how it would go: "So I see from your application that you're a traveller. Can you tell us a bit about your family background... Really? your parents aren't travellers? But you've decided to join the travelling community yourself? scribbles furiously Why did you decide to do that? more scribbling Can you tell us about traveller culture and how well you have integrated into it? continued scribbling Ah I see well that's very interesting, can you tell us the names of your friends in the traveller community that you hang around with further scribbling and some prominent members of the traveller community who we can contact as referees scribbling intensifies"

College admissions boards aren't robots and they can tell when someone is taking the piss.

tayto lover

234 wrote: »

Here is the definition from the Equal Status Act, 2000:



In the unlikely event that you joined, rather than being born into, the Travelling community, then you could plausibly come within the definition.

No. He's a "country man"".
That's what Travellers call the rest of us.

sasta le

But what makes travellers different from us?A question they ask all the time

Victor

sasta le wrote: »

They get housing stables education transport to schools provided so theu must have to prove it when applying

Lots of people are entitled to housing supports.

Everyone is constitutionally entitled to a primary education and everyone is statutorily entitled to a secondary education. Third level is a bit more complicated.

A large number of under 18s are entitled to school transport - those living in rural areas or attending a school with a particular language or religious ethos.

sasta le wrote: »

So i want a horse stable build for me i can apply?

You'll have to move the helicopter pad first.

Who says there are supports for building stables?

sasta le

But stables are build for them on legal sites by council very often

sasta le

So what defines them as travellers as different from me?

endacl

234 wrote: »

Can you provide a specific reference to what members of the Travelling community might be applying for that is contingent on their status?

Abuse, derision, stereotyping, discrimination, lower life expectancy, higher incidence of depression and suicide?

And silly threads on here?

sasta le

Might be a silly thread to some yes

bigpink

But how is traveller status proved?

sasta le

Exactly how are they deemed for free housibg stables etc

Speedwell

Well, I'm Jewish, and nobody ever asks me to prove it. I can, given an Internet connection and a little time on a genealogy site and a phone call with my first cousin once removed's wife (briefly, I'm a scion of the Gorelik family of Minsk). But I always assumed Traveller status was a little like that, something you would scarcely claim unless you really were one.

As for claiming to be one for the sake of getting benefits, ah yes. I used to know a lot of folks in college who were suddenly "American Indian descent" when it came to affirmative action programs, but who would punch you right in the nose if you tried to insinuate they were disadvantaged due to their "ethnicity". I put "ethnicity" in quotes because the number of people in that area who claim blithely to have "Cherokee tribal ancestry" is far in excess of the probable number of actual people who the Cherokee nation would consider to have verifiable tribal ancestry.

PucaMama

This thread is ridiculous

Peregrinus

Peregrinus wrote: »

No. The definition doesn't define an individual traveller; it defines the traveller community. And the whole point about a community is that it's defined collectively, not individually. I can't unilaterally decide that I am Jewish/Polish/a Traveller/whatever and require the rest of the world to accept my decision. I have to actually, factually, participate in the community, which requires that the community accept me as Jewish/Polish/a Traveller/whatever. You don't decide unilaterally whether you're a member of the Traveller community; the Traveller community does.

Very dubious

Can the community likewise vote a native member out?

pablo128

PucaMama wrote: »

This thread is ridiculous

I don't agree. If they want to be treated fairly, and just like everyone else, then they can't complain if people want to live just like them.

If it's just to claim traveller specific benefits, well why not? Personally I don't care, but there's people out there who see travellers being given sites and driving new vans and cars. Its human nature to try get a slice of the pie too.

Speedwell

Seriously? That's a bit like people who think that other people "live the good life" on welfare benefits. Sure, if you think that being so poor that you need welfare or other benefits for the disadvantaged is the kind of life you want to lead, then I suppose you are welcome to it.

sasta le

My rent is crazy if i got a caravan or campervan can i become a traveller?

pablo128

Speedwell wrote: »

Seriously? That's a bit like people who think that other people "live the good life" on welfare benefits. Sure, if you think that being so poor that you need welfare or other benefits for the disadvantaged is the kind of life you want to lead, then I suppose you are welcome to it.

Didn't you read my post where I said I didn't care personally?

If I was unemployed and on the bones of my arse however, and while walking out of the post office I see travellers also collecting their dole but hopping into a new car or van, I would feel envious and would want a bit of the action. Its human nature.

yqtwqxqm

The standard for everything these days.
As long as you "Identify" as a traveller then you are all set.

PucaMama

pablo128 wrote: »

PucaMama wrote: »

This thread is ridiculous

I don't agree. If they want to be treated fairly, and just like everyone else, then they can't complain if people want to live just like them.

If it's just to claim traveller specific benefits, well why not? Personally I don't care, but there's people out there who see travellers being given sites and driving new vans and cars. Its human nature to try get a slice of the pie too.

This thread screams petty childish attitudes from the start. Grow up.

pablo128

PucaMama wrote: »

This thread screams petty childish attitudes from the start. Grow up.

Fantastic contribution. Thank you.

PucaMama

pablo128 wrote: »

PucaMama wrote: »

This thread screams petty childish attitudes from the start. Grow up.

Fantastic contribution. Thank you.

It's a better one than "I want I want I want" which is all anyone else is saying.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Any lawyers here willing to represent me in getting all the perks of civilised society, without any of the responsibilities? Willing to become any status that gets the job done. Cash advance not an issue, retainer going forward on completion

hullaballoo

Not legal discussion.

Thread closed.