Songbirds, Magpies, etc.

dodderangler

MOD NOTE

Split off from main thread as the topic has gone so far from the OP as to not be even slightly relevant.

laoch na mona wrote: »

animals are animals they act as nature dictates this does not justify or condemn the act of hunting.

But humans have hunted since dawn of time and as they evolved the raised livestock and have protected them against predators.
Humans hunted to survive. Now we don't need to but we eat what we shoot except foxes and corvids. We shoot foxes for the farmers who have been kind enough to allow us to hunt on their land. In return we offer our services to make their farming easier. Farmers don't have time to shoot rabbits that are destroying ditches, fields and their crops. Same with crows. Nor during lambing season can they be out in fields shooting foxes.Magpies kill a lot of our songbirds and do damage to our decreasing songbird population. That's were we come in. Also we enjoy it.
I don't care if I get up early and walk all day and not get a thing because it's the joys of being out in countryside and some of the things we see are amazing.

OpenYourEyes

dodderangler wrote: »

Magpies kill a lot of our songbirds and do damage to our decreasing songbird population.

They don't have any affect on our songbird populations - it's been looked into. Just one of those things that certain lobby groups in the UK say from time to time and some people have accepted to be true, but I assure you that scientists have looked into it and it's not the case.

Obviously, if you have a fragile population of tens of ground-nesting birds in an area then magpies will negatively affect that population, but our songbird problems are down to the various parts of agricultural intensification in recent decades - nothing else.

It's the same as hunting a specific bird species doesn't necessarily decrease or constrain the population of that species - there are other factors that limit the amount of birds that make it into the breeding population the following year.

yubabill1

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

They don't have any affect on our songbird populations - it's been looked into. Just one of those things that certain lobby groups in the UK say from time to time and some people have accepted to be true, but I assure you that scientists have looked into it and it's not the case.

Obviously, if you have a fragile population of tens of ground-nesting birds in an area then magpies will negatively affect that population, but our songbird problems are down to the various parts of agricultural intensification in recent decades - nothing else.

It's the same as hunting a specific bird species doesn't necessarily decrease or constrain the population of that species - there are other factors that limit the amount of birds that make it into the breeding population the following year.

We have seen a big increase (and I mean several hundred percent over the last 5 or 6 years) in songbird numbers since I started taking exception to the magpies around here.

We don't feed them and we have a regular sparrowhawk working the area, the only interference has been the magpies.

I think magpies have an effect on songbirds around here, whatever the studies say. Nice to see them around. Nice to see the sparrowhawk, too. Couple of pairs of falcons few miles up the road - seriously impressive in a stoop.

Capercaille

yubabill1 wrote: »

We have seen a big increase (and I mean several hundred percent over the last 5 or 6 years) in songbird numbers since I started taking exception to the magpies around here.

We don't feed them and we have a regular sparrowhawk working the area, the only interference has been the magpies.

I think magpies have an effect on songbirds around here, whatever the studies say. Nice to see them around. Nice to see the sparrowhawk, too. Couple of pairs of falcons few miles up the road - seriously impressive in a stoop.

100%+ increase in which species and what area of the Country?

OpenYourEyes

yubabill1 wrote: »

We have seen a big increase (and I mean several hundred percent over the last 5 or 6 years) in songbird numbers since I started taking exception to the magpies around here.

We don't feed them and we have a regular sparrowhawk working the area, the only interference has been the magpies.

I think magpies have an effect on songbirds around here, whatever the studies say. Nice to see them around. Nice to see the sparrowhawk, too. Couple of pairs of falcons few miles up the road - seriously impressive in a stoop.

Some people think they do, for various reasons, but in scientific studies of large areas and with controlled conditions it has been found to not be the case at all. It's possible your local area is different to the bigger picture, but it seems unlikely.

Possible reasons include the observer hearing from someone that magpies do affect their populations and then just thinking of that anytime they see a songbird and associating the two, maybe a person has started controlling magpies and thats affecting their judgement (i.e. they want to believe they're having a big impact), maybe they saw a magpie eating a chick/egg and don't like them for that reason, maybe the observer has simply started paying more attention to their local songbirds in recent years than they did before and think there was an increase, maybe there were wider landscape changes or songbirds have increased due to some other change but the time period overlaps with when magpie control started etc etc. Thats not an accusation against anyone btw - these kinds of things are all subconscious, hence why we need proper studies to avoid any bias, intentional or unintentional.

But anyway! The main thing is that you have plenty of songbirds, and raptors too, to enjoy!

yubabill1

Capercaille wrote: »

100%+ increase in which species and what area of the Country?

Now, let me see, we've seen and heard a lot of extra goldfinches the last couple of years and the wrens have got a boost. I don't know if starlings count as songbirds (they make some racket) but there's a flock of them in the garden now, from one pair 2 or 4 years ago. Wagtails stable, robins stable, blackbirds maybe a slight increase. Haven't seen too many thrushes this year, though.
They're only the ones I've noticed, without particularly looking. We used to have wild pheasants in reasonable numbers up until a few years ago, but they have disappeared and so have the grey squirrels - I know there are pine martens in the area, as I saw one dead on the road a few years ago and I have seen them regularly in a forestry not a million miles away.

I'd rather not say where I am, but I have over 20 year's experience in physical chemistry and have spoken at one or two conferences.

yubabill1

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Possible reasons include the observer hearing from someone that magpies do affect their populations and then just thinking of that anytime they see a songbird and associating the two, maybe a person has started controlling magpies and thats affecting their judgement (i.e. they want to believe they're having a big impact), maybe they saw a magpie eating a chick/egg and don't like them for that reason, maybe the observer has simply started paying more attention to their local songbirds in recent years than they did before and think there was an increase, maybe there were wider landscape changes or songbirds have increased due to some other change but the time period overlaps with when magpie control started etc etc. Thats not an accusation against anyone btw - these kinds of things are all subconscious, hence why we need proper studies to avoid any bias, intentional or unintentional.

I think we had this conversation before.

I am not mistaken in my observations of the birds in my own garden 2 miles from the nearest village.

OpenYourEyes

yubabill1 wrote: »

Now, let me see, we've seen and heard a lot of extra goldfinches the last couple of years and the wrens have got a boost. I don't know if starlings count as songbirds (they make some racket) but there's a flock of them in the garden now, from one pair 2 or 4 years ago. Wagtails stable, robins stable, blackbirds maybe a slight increase. Haven't seen too many thrushes this year, though.
They're only the ones I've noticed, without particularly looking. We used to have wild pheasants in reasonable numbers up until a few years ago, but they have disappeared and so have the grey squirrels - I know there are pine martens in the area, as I saw one dead on the road a few years ago and I have seen them regularly in a forestry not a million miles away.

I'd rather not say where I am, but I have over 20 year's experience in physical chemistry and have spoken at one or two conferences.

Goldfinch numbers are up nationwide, wrens can be quite cyclical based on weather throughout the year and particularly in winter, starlings usually breed in well-covered nests (often in the eaves of houses) and so predation from birds isn't a problem for them.

I'm not saying you havn't seen increases, I'm saying that given the scientific evidence it is unlikely that the changes you have seen are due to Magpie control. They're much more likely to be due to changes in food or habitat at the landscape or regional scale.

There is an innate temptation in all of us to look for evidence that confirms our pre-existing beliefs. Another person suggested Magpies have a negative effect on songbird populations - the research has been done, they don't. That's not to say Magpie control isn't needed at certain times and in certain places, but it's important to stick to the facts as much as is humanly possible, particularly when talking to people like the ICABS nutcases commenting on that Broadsheet article.


Edit: I don't want to have the same conversation if we've had it before, so I'll leave it there - I've said my piece.

yubabill1

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

There is an innate temptation in all of us to look for evidence that confirms our pre-existing beliefs. Another person suggested Magpies have a negative effect on songbird populations - the research has been done, they don't. That's not to say Magpie control isn't needed at certain times and in certain places, but it's important to stick to the facts as much as is humanly


Edit: I don't want to have the same conversation if we've had it before, so I'll leave it there - I've said my piece.

My work relies heavily on dismissing innate prejudice - and it can be blinding at times.

glad to hear about goldfinch numbers - my favourite songbird (suppose most other people's too).

The number of house sparrows in the garden has exploded in the last few years - from literally one or two pairs to a flock of over 20 individuals.

Capercaille

blackpearl wrote: »

game hunting season coming to a close ,LET THE WAR BEGIN MAGPIES AND GREY CROWS,total wipe out in my area cant wait.

Control of numbers rather than total wipe out is preferable.

allan450

WIPE THEM

Capercaille

allan450 wrote: »

WIPE THEM

Eradication of generalist scavengers like magpie/grey crows would lead to increases in generalist mammalian predators like foxes. Foxes would have a greater effect on threatened ground nesting species.

dodderangler

allan450 wrote: »

WIPE THEM

Wouldn't be wiping them. Like all species good or bad they have their uses and I wouldn't be wiping them out totally.
Controlling them is more what I'd be doing.
Now should a farmer wish them completely gone I will do my best to do that

allan450

I only said that to get a reaction out of you ha ha.you know a lot about conservation/birds.im sure it has its problems like if anything is wiped.i seen a buzzard in my area yesterday whats the best way to unsure is safety and the likes.should i pm you save derailing this tread

dodderangler

Do you mean you wanna know best ways to keep buzzard safe

allan450

dodderangler wrote: »

Do you mean you wanna know best ways to keep buzzard safe

Is their anything that would keep them in the area.how much are would they cover.would have to educate sheepfarmers that they have nothing to worry about ect ect.eagles flying in sligo would be 10 miles from me he probably escaped from their

yubabill1

Surrounded by buzzards here.
Started comeback in late '90's.

Big boyos - one of the first I saw was being mobbed by rooks and they were tiny in comparison.

dodderangler

allan450 wrote: »

Is their anything that would keep them in the area.how much are would they cover.would have to educate sheepfarmers that they have nothing to worry about ect ect.eagles flying in sligo would be 10 miles from me he probably escaped from their

Surely sheep farmers aren't that stupid to still believe that buzzards will do any harm to their stock.
The amount of news in papers over the years from farmers poisoning buzzards and claiming them to kill lambs and sheep surely by now they know they do no damage at all.

Capercaille

allan450 wrote: »

Is their anything that would keep them in the area.how much are would they cover.would have to educate sheepfarmers that they have nothing to worry about ect ect.eagles flying in sligo would be 10 miles from me he probably escaped from their

You would need to educate gunclub members/individual hunters as well. Plenty of them (not all) resentful to presence of buzzards.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

yubabill1 wrote: »

Now, let me see, we've seen and heard a lot of extra goldfinches the last couple of years and the wrens have got a boost. I don't know if starlings count as songbirds (they make some racket) but there's a flock of them in the garden now, from one pair 2 or 4 years ago. Wagtails stable, robins stable, blackbirds maybe a slight increase. Haven't seen too many thrushes this year, though.
They're only the ones I've noticed, without particularly looking. We used to have wild pheasants in reasonable numbers up until a few years ago, but they have disappeared and so have the grey squirrels - I know there are pine martens in the area, as I saw one dead on the road a few years ago and I have seen them regularly in a forestry not a million miles away.

I'd rather not say where I am, but I have over 20 year's experience in physical chemistry and have spoken at one or two conferences.

I too have had a large increase in goldfinches, wrens , robins and song thrush over the last two years. My figures are fact as I have weekly garden bird counts for the last 25+ years.
The thing is I don't deter Magpies..!
Study after study has shown magpie numbers have no adverse affect on songbird numbers. If you have a science background you can probably get access to several of the studies not generally available on the web.

Vegeta

I can't recall the study but I once read that while it was likely that magpie numbers had no effect on songbird numbers that displacement of other bird species possible. I'll have a google for it but anyone else see anything similar

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Vegeta wrote: »

I can't recall the study but I once read that while it was likely that magpie numbers had no effect on songbird numbers that displacement of other bird species possible. I'll have a google for it but anyone else see anything similar

No study I ever took part in, or read, showed any evidence of displacement.

Desmo

yubabill1 wrote: »

My work relies heavily on dismissing innate prejudice - and it can be blinding at times.

glad to hear about goldfinch numbers - my favourite songbird (suppose most other people's too).

The number of house sparrows in the garden has exploded in the last few years - from literally one or two pairs to a flock of over 20 individuals.

This is picking bits and pieces and using these as evidence and ignoring other evidence. I live in a housing estate that has magpies everywhere and they are not controlled and I have also seen a big increase in starlings, sparrows and goldfinches over the past 11 years (since I moved in). I have also seen green finches plummet (infectious roundworm), stone chats and grey wagtails disappear from nearby areas (bad winters 3 years ago) and other major changes and none are due to magpies. Magpies certainly eat eggs and chicks; so do cats and probably more so. Habitat loss in urban areas is likely the main reason for declines of nesting song birds. The increase in Goldfinches is a winter phenomenon when they are relatively safe from magpies anyway and is due to feeders in gardens.

Des

Desmo

Capercaille wrote: »

You would need to educate gunclub members/individual hunters as well. Plenty of them (not all) resentful to presence of buzzards.

This is sad as buzzards and ravens may help increase numbers of birds to be shot if they displace or predate on magpies and grey crows.

Des

OpenYourEyes

Vegeta wrote: »

I can't recall the study but I once read that while it was likely that magpie numbers had no effect on songbird numbers that displacement of other bird species possible. I'll have a google for it but anyone else see anything similar

I'd certainly be interested in reading it if you can track it down, but I'm struggling to think what Magpies would displace, given that they're such generalists. They don't use nest sites or food supplies that are generally in short supply.

OpenYourEyes

Desmo wrote: »

This is sad as buzzards and ravens may help increase numbers of birds to be shot if they displace or predate on magpies and grey crows.

Des

I've said this story elsewhere on boards before, but I was with some NPWS rangers when they were ringing Buzzard chicks. The guy who climbed the tree took some pictures of the nest, and it was a huge nest completely lined with black feathers, where the Buzzards had been predating Rooks and jackdaws and I think there was one Hooded Crow maybe too. In addition there were the hind legs of one or two rabbits, and numerous rats tails around the nest too.

All species that a farmer or gamekeeper would be glad to be rid of!

OpenYourEyes

Just to add to what Desmo said, and what I previously said - birds like Magpies would have a significant negative effect on a population of birds that 1) is limited in number, 2) is limited in range, and 3) has very easily accessible and find-able nests.


The best example of all of the above I can think of is the conservation project at Boora - you have Grey Partridge and Lapwing that are both very limited in number and range in this country, and that nest on the ground and so their nests are very easy to find. If Magpies and corvids (and rats and foxes) weren't controlled there they reckon the populations would be gone in a short number of years.

That's in contrast to the species mentioned like Starling and Goldfinch, which are both very widespread, and who's nests are much more difficult to both find and access than partridge or lapwing nests. Add to that the mountain of evidence that has shown the negative impacts of landscape-scale changes, most notable agricultural intensification. And the now well-known benefit of increased garden feeding, particularly with nyger seed, on Goldfinch populations. Magpies are not significantly affecting songbird populations, and Magpie control is not releasing them from a pressure that was previously constraining them.

magicbastarder

just a comment on the 'songbird populations increase after magpies are removed'; my reaction would be 'if so, so what?'
songbird numbers would increase if you removed *all* their predators, but that doesn't mean predators are A Bad Thing.

people just don't like magpies, and they use songbird numbers to justify that prejudice.

Capercaille

As Openyoureyes mentioned magpie/grey crow control is essential with threatened ground nesting birds like Grey partridge. Also for Red Grouse, Curlew, Dunlin, Lapwings, Corncrake, Redshank. Good breeding habitat for these species is sadly lacking in Ireland and with poor habitat that leads to increased predation.
There are some groups such as "Songbird Survival" in the UK which blame corvids for the decline in songbirds. They advocate mass culling of corvids/buzzards. The group "Songbird Survival" is financed by leading members of shooting industry in the UK (correct me if I'm incorrect there), whose main reason for culling these birds is to protect game shooting interests such as Pheasant shooting and not songbirds.

Capercaille

http://www.newstalk.ie/player/podcasts/The_Pat_Kenny_Show/The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Highlights/75050/2/Are_the_birds_going_the_way_of_the_dinosaur
Raptors are the cause of small birds decline and the Red Kite is eating all the small birds. Pure rubbish.........

OpenYourEyes

Capercaille wrote: »

http://www.newstalk.ie/player/podcasts/The_Pat_Kenny_Show/The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Highlights/75050/2/Are_the_birds_going_the_way_of_the_dinosaur
Raptors are the cause of small birds decline and the Red Kite is eating all the small birds. Pure rubbish.........

I listened to the whole thing and that guy couldn't go 20seconds without saying something completely wrong and idiotic! Spreading a lot of dangerous mistruths there. How Newstalk got in touch with a biochemist to talk about birds I'll never know! Sounds like he hasn't even read a press-release on some of those papers, nevermind the studies themselves!

Capercaille

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

I listened to the whole thing and that guy couldn't go 20seconds without saying something completely wrong and idiotic! Spreading a lot of dangerous mistruths there. How Newstalk got in touch with a biochemist to talk about birds I'll never know! Sounds like he hasn't even read a press-release on some of those papers, nevermind the studies themselves!

yubabill1 is a biochemist. Maybe he knows the fellow talking to Pat Kenny.

Birdnuts

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

I listened to the whole thing and that guy couldn't go 20seconds without saying something completely wrong and idiotic! Spreading a lot of dangerous mistruths there. How Newstalk got in touch with a biochemist to talk about birds I'll never know! Sounds like he hasn't even read a press-release on some of those papers, nevermind the studies themselves!

Just listened to that piece and clearly Pat wasn't the only Plank in the studio. I sent in my own thoughts on the matter to Newstalk who like to claim they are a public service radio station. Clearly failed to meet basic standards on this topic. The text of my email was as follows which i sent to complaints@newstalk.ie


HI there - I'm writing this email to express my disgust at the level of debate on the PK show on the 14/01/2015 concerning Wild birds in Ireland. Firstly I've no idea why a person like Luke O Neill was presented as an "expert" in the field despite having no qualifications or experience in the field of ornithology. The amount of misinformation and general ignorance he proceeded to spew on the subject of bird declines and raptors was frankly astonishing. His attempts to demonise protected species like Red Kites that have only just been brought back from extinction was highly reckless given the ongoing problem of illegal killing of protected raptors in this country.


Much research has been done on the declines of birds in this country and the main causes are habitat loss, illegal killing and the introduction of non-native species.In the future I would hope the PK show's uses credible people from the likes of Birdwatch Ireland, Golden Eagle Trust etc. to cover such issues. Newstalk likes to present itself as a public service broadcaster and I hope better standards are adhered to in the future

regards,

OpenYourEyes

I emailed them too. I think it's a good chance to highlight that we enjoy when nature topics get coverage in the media, but that this particular incident was particularly problematic, and that we hope all future pieces are done using qualified people properly involved in the topic at hand.

Birdnuts

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

I emailed them too. I think it's a good chance to highlight that we enjoy when nature topics get coverage in the media, but that this particular incident was particularly problematic, and that we hope all future pieces are done using qualified people properly involved in the topic at hand.

Probably the biggest irony in all this is that most of what we would describe as song or garden birds are actually doing quiet well(Blackcaps, Goldfinches etc.). The handfull that aren't, are declining along with the type of farmland habitats they depend on or in the case of Greenfinches, disease.

magicbastarder

i've seen on facebook that the golden eagle trust have requested a right of reply from newstalk on this issue; however, i suspect the response will be 'we've talked enough about raptors, we don't want to revisit the issue', even if they will probably phrase it differently themselves.

vistafinder

Fair play lads for sending in them emails.

OpenYourEyes

magicbastarder wrote: »

i've seen on facebook that the golden eagle trust have requested a right of reply from newstalk on this issue; however, i suspect the response will be 'we've talked enough about raptors, we don't want to revisit the issue', even if they will probably phrase it differently themselves.

They mention "Broadcasting Authority of Ireland's Right of Reply Scheme in full as required by Section 49 of the Broadcasting Act 2009." on their 'contact us/complaints' page, so between the mini-uproar on social media and the fact that the Golden Eagle Trust, Birdwatch Ireland and possibly other organisations have gotten in touch with them asking for time to set the record straight, I'm sure they'll have somebody on.

The offending professor apologised on twitter and said he'll encourage the Pat Kenny Show to discuss the topic again with raptor experts.

Desmo

I know Luke and he walked into it. It is not his field and he has apologised for getting it wrong; the PK show also are a bit to blame with their researchers. They sound like they will allow a reply. The show was indeed awful.

OpenYourEyes

Myself and others have gotten very defensive and somewhat argumentative replies from a Newstalk producer - to the best of my knowledge he's not a wildlife expert either!

Glad Prof O'Neill apologised. All the Pat Kenny show has to do is give someone from BWI or GET a ten minute interview and it'll all be forgotten about!

Desmo

They seem to have gotten hold of that controversial paper about drops in house sparrow numbers possibly being linked to sparrow hawks. A little knowledge turned out to be dangerous. It really needs a raptor expert to argue with them, live on air.

Capercaille

Desmo wrote: »

I know Luke and he walked into it. It is not his field and he has apologised for getting it wrong; the PK show also are a bit to blame with their researchers. They sound like they will allow a reply. The show was indeed awful.

At least he apologized for the pure vitriolic rubbish he spouted, he needs to do more than apologize on Twitter though. You would think that being a University Professor he would had had a bit of cop on, that you would need to have your information correct before doing an interview like that.

OpenYourEyes

The 'Rpator Persecution Scotland' Blog has covered the story, which is well worth reading if only for Dr. Allan Mee's (Golden Eagle Trust & Irish Raptor Study Group) rebuttal letter:

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2015/01/15/horrible-raptors-are-becoming-more-aggressive-says-idiot/