Balancing a system?

Big Nelly

Hi

ok, have a small problem. I have installed gas heating about 3 years ago, everything was fine. recently installed new controls and put climote on it so everything is new. When the system was installed it was set up that it woudl also warm the water in the immersion tank.

Now I have a baba in house so we leave the immersion on all the time so we have hot water, so I turned off the tap so the heating system would not heat the water in immersion.

Now 2 of the rooms do not heat up properly, the rad's are luke warm at best and all the rest will be hot. They are open fully as well.

I guess the problem is the system needs to be balanced? if so is it easy to do? how do I do it?

Or how much would a plumber cost?

Calahonda52

re recently installed new controls
can u flesh this out pls.
Was system drained for this?
describe the rad system/layout.

ps use the gas to heat the water for the baba, immersion is 18c/kwh v 5 or 6 for gas, depending on ur plan

RJF

If you have proper controls on the system you should never need to use to immersion to heat the water except when the gas boiler breaks down and then you use the immersion as a back up. You said you turned off the tap? Which tap was this? When the new controls were installed the system should have been explained to you. Suggest you talk to the installer as they are familiar with the set up and should be able to tell you what might help. If installer not available a fuller description here (pictures always a big help) might lead to a solution.

Big Nelly

Calahonda52 wrote: »

re recently installed new controls
can u flesh this out pls.
Was system drained for this?
describe the rad system/layout.

ps use the gas to heat the water for the baba, immersion is 18c/kwh v 5 or 6 for gas, depending on ur plan

re recently installed new controls
can u flesh this out pls. - Put in new thermostat in hall and replaced the original digitial controller to Climote. So it really ios just controller to turn on/off.

Was system drained for this? no

describe the rad system/layout. Boiler is in attic. There was old oil boiler in back shed, water came in from boiler then up inside cavity wall to attic and then flowed down to rads in house. So I pulled out old boiler and just put gas boiler into attic and hooked up to pipes.

There is 5 rads up stairs and 5 down stairs. Rads where replaced in 2008 when I refitted the house, I didnt get to do boiler till 2011-12....it was open system with oil and now closed system,,.,,

Big Nelly

RJF wrote: »

If you have proper controls on the system you should never need to use to immersion to heat the water except when the gas boiler breaks down and then you use the immersion as a back up. You said you turned off the tap? Which tap was this? When the new controls were installed the system should have been explained to you. Suggest you talk to the installer as they are familiar with the set up and should be able to tell you what might help. If installer not available a fuller description here (pictures always a big help) might lead to a solution.

In the hot press there is a tap, I just closed this. Installer had said in 2008 this allow the heating to warm the hot water

RJF

Was it the wheel valve or the lever valve you closed? The wheel valve is the balancing valve (looks like) but a further back view would be helpful. I think it looks like the lever valve is closed so you have turned off some part of the system but hard to tell from the closeness of the view which part. From your further description it sounds like you do not have proper controls with full boiler interlock. Are there any zone valves, motorised or not, on the system?

Big Nelly

RJF wrote: »

Was it the wheel valve or the lever valve you closed? The wheel valve is the balancing valve (looks like) but a further back view would be helpful. I think it looks like the lever valve is closed so you have turned off some part of the system but hard to tell from the closeness of the view which part. From your further description it sounds like you do not have proper controls with full boiler interlock. Are there any zone valves, motorised or not, on the system?

The red wheel valve I closed, didn't touch the yellow lever values.....

No zone or motorised, house was built in 60, I left the piping in place and just replaced the rads, cylinder, boiler, timer etc

Big Nelly

From a bit further out

RJF

Can you post a pic showing what is going into the pipe at top of the cylinder and describe them.

RJF

The red gate valve is the balancing valve and restricts the flow through the coil. This needs to be open for you to have hot water. Normally closing this will give increased flow through the rest of the system. I presume you turned it clockwise to close it. Now as to the immersion - it is crazy to leave this on all the time even if you never used the heating. You will get larger amounts of hot water from the heating system generally and it will cost far less. You have an insulated cylinder so it should store the heat well. If you need hot water when the heat is not on set the immersion timer for these times according to your needs or turn it on manually. Have you found that you do not have enough hot water when you use just the heating? When all your rads are on, are they fully hot , top and bottom, so you can only keep your hand on it for a short time?

Big Nelly

RJF wrote: »

The red gate valve is the balancing valve and restricts the flow through the coil. This needs to be open for you to have hot water. Normally closing this will give increased flow through the rest of the system. I presume you turned it clockwise to close it. Now as to the immersion - it is crazy to leave this on all the time even if you never used the heating. You will get larger amounts of hot water from the heating system generally and it will cost far less. You have an insulated cylinder so it should store the heat well. If you need hot water when the heat is not on set the immersion timer for these times according to your needs or turn it on manually. Have you found that you do not have enough hot water when you use just the heating? When all your rads are on, are they fully hot , top and bottom, so you can only keep your hand on it for a short time?

yes clockwise and closed it.

We started the immersion on all the time in summer and never stopped. We dont use the heating at all in summer so just needed hot water.

I have tried without the immersion turned on to be honest, the little one has a bath each night so it was for this we kept the water immersion on, I haven't had time to install a timer and we kept forgetting if we turned on/off so we just left on.

When all the rads are on the ones that are heating are hot top-bottom. I bled them all recently to make sure this wasn't an issue. You wouldn't be able to keep your hand long on the rads when heating is going.....

RJF

If you turn on the immersion manually you should have enough hot water to bath the little one within 15 min, 1/2 hr max. Not good to leave the immersion on all the time as it will drastically shorten its life and then you have the cost of replacement. You should open the balancing valve to the position it was before. If you don't know this just open 1 1/2 turns and see how this works. Use the immersion only when needed and install a time clock - it will pay for itself in savings.

RJF

For the summer you may/should be able to turn off the heating using the zone valves (yellow - wrong colour, normally for gas). Need pic of top connection to clarify.

RJF

By the way have you checked the water pressure at the gas boiler in the attic? Should be a gauge on it. Low pressure will effect your system.

Big Nelly

RJF wrote: »

By the way have you checked the water pressure at the gas boiler in the attic? Should be a gauge on it. Low pressure will effect your system.

Yeah there is pressure value on the boiler to keep the pressure correct. That is not an issue.

Big Nelly

For the moment I reopened the tap to let water flow into immersion, need to keep those rads going...

need to invest in timer for immersion but the install is the biggest pain :-)

In regards to the original question about how to balance the system, is there an easy way to do?

If not will a plumber cost much?

RJF

A timer for the immersion should take less than an hour and not cost a whole lot-no water involved, only electrical. I presume there is already an immersion switch with sink/bath on it. To balance the system in your case, close the valve and then open it one full turn. See how the system works at this setting. If not good, open another 1/4 turn and check again. Repeat until you feel you are getting good heat to all systems. This is not exactly balancing but should suffice in your case. If still problematic get a good plumber in. Should be no more than a call out, maybe a little more depending on how detailed a balancing is necessary in the case of your particular system.

Big Nelly

RJF wrote: »

A timer for the immersion should take less than an hour and not cost a whole lot-no water involved, only electrical. I presume there is already an immersion switch with sink/bath on it. To balance the system in your case, close the valve and then open it one full turn. See how the system works at this setting. If not good, open another 1/4 turn and check again. Repeat until you feel you are getting good heat to all systems. This is not exactly balancing but should suffice in your case. If still problematic get a good plumber in. Should be no more than a call out, maybe a little more depending on how detailed a balancing is necessary in the case of your particular system.

But if I leave it closed can I then balance the system? so if I leave it that the heating does not heat the ht water...thanks for all the help

Very much appreciated

RJF

No, leaving it closed will mean that the hot water part of the system IS NOT BALANCED. Setting this valve open to a particular point is what balances this part of the system. That is why it is called the balancing valve. It restricts the rate of flow through the coil in order to optimize heat retention in the cylinder and ensure a balanced flow between this part of the system and the radiator zones. The radiator parts of the system also need to be balanced which involves adjusting the lock shield valves and measuring the flow and return temps of the rads. An "intuitive" approach can also be used but this is less effective. Look for other posts on the forum on Rad balancing. It is a false economy and makes no sense to be trying to turn off the hot water heating when you are using the space heating anyway. You should have loads of hot water just from running the heating and only use the immersion (electrical) as back up.

Big Nelly

thanks everyone for help, so I turned the red handle one full rotation and flicked off immersion. So I had enough hot water. Still 1 rad, in kitchen lukewarm when rest are hot to touch. Turned it another half rotation and still lukewarm. Any idea's? it is pain because kitchen is too cold to sit in now....

RJF

First try bleeding the rad, (and the others) there may be air in it. Report back here if this does not help for further instruction.

pache

You could try turning off the rads that are heating and leave the ones that are not heating on,with the heating on to see will that sort you out.

Big Nelly

Ok so last night done the following

Bled all the rad's. Really there was only 1 with air in it and this was not the issue

Checked radiator and not any hotter. I left for hour and still nothing

So I turned off all the radiators and just left on the problem one. It is just one radiator I have issue with now

After about an hour it was warm so I turned back on the other radiators.....tried this morning. Still the same, radiator is lukewarm and rest are hot...

This is driving me nuts:-)

RJF

With all the rads on, try opening the lockshield valve on problem rad 1/4 turn and see if it improves. If not repeat 1/4 turn at a time. Any improvement should happen within a couple of minutes of each turn. The lockshield valve is the one on the opposite side to the one you used to turn the rad on and off. You will need to remove the protective cap and turn with a small spanner.

Big Nelly

RJF wrote: »

With all the rads on, try opening the lockshield valve on problem rad 1/4 turn and see if it improves. If not repeat 1/4 turn at a time. Any improvement should happen within a couple of minutes of each turn. The lockshield valve is the one on the opposite side to the one you used to turn the rad on and off. You will need to remove the protective cap and turn with a small spanner.

Thanks again for help, tried this on Friday, kept turning. No matter how open it is the heat in radiator is still the same

Luke warm at best. At one stage when I started it got warm at top but lukewarm at bottom.....not like that anymore

Dtp1979

Big Nelly wrote: »

Thanks again for help, tried this on Friday, kept turning. No matter how open it is the heat in radiator is still the same

Luke warm at best. At one stage when I started it got warm at top but lukewarm at bottom.....not like that anymore

On the problem rad, open both sides fully.
On the rest of the rads, ignore lock shield or wheel valve, open the hotter pipe fully. Close the cooler pipe and open 1/4 turn. This is the return side of the rad. Do this for all rads excet the problem rad. Please report back.