Short Term CCTV One Room

Northern lassie · 12-01-2015 12:15pm #1

Hi All

Couldn't find anything like this on boards already so posting here. Hope someone can advise me.

There's a security problem where I work i.e. money going missing. Have suspicions who's guilty but have absolutely proof ... could be wrong though. Anyway, would be keen to get this sorted and have an idea of putting a camera in the room to see what can be seen. Anticipate leaving it there for about one month. How difficult is this? Have googled companies that hire out CCTV equipment but look very expensive and large scale.

I'm not overly technical but wondering could I do this myself? Or would I need an electrician.

thanks for reading.

KoolKid · 12-01-2015 9:19pm

There are endless options of covert CCTV using battery powered devices with built in SD cards. However you may run into data protection issues if you try to use the evidence in court etc.

Northern lassie · 12-01-2015 9:42pm

Thanks for reply. Didn't even know they were called covert CCTV. Its all a bit mad really that there might be data protection issues for filming somebody who is robbing you!!

KoolKid · 12-01-2015 10:02pm

Northern lassie wrote: »

Its all a bit mad really that there might be data protection issues for filming somebody who is robbing you!!

I agree,there have been some crazy rulings in cases.

JillyQ · 13-01-2015 12:18am

Northern lassie wrote: »

Thanks for reply. Didn't even know they were called covert CCTV. Its all a bit mad really that there might be data protection issues for filming somebody who is robbing you!!

The Data protection laws are quiet serious onit dont know if you have a copy of it but i will try and link it.
http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/CCTV/1242.htm

altor · 13-01-2015 8:09pm

Northern lassie wrote: »

Hi All

Couldn't find anything like this on boards already so posting here. Hope someone can advise me.

There's a security problem where I work i.e. money going missing. Have suspicions who's guilty but have absolutely proof ... could be wrong though. Anyway, would be keen to get this sorted and have an idea of putting a camera in the room to see what can be seen. Anticipate leaving it there for about one month. How difficult is this? Have googled companies that hire out CCTV equipment but look very expensive and large scale.

I'm not overly technical but wondering could I do this myself? Or would I need an electrician.

thanks for reading.

You would need someone who is licensed to do the install.
Covert cameras can be used but you must inform the guards in advance of any install, especially if you plan on using them as evidence. Have you any other cameras in use in work?

KoolKid · 13-01-2015 8:44pm

I heard of having to inform staff etc. Never heard of having to inform the Guards on every covert camera you install.

altor · 13-01-2015 8:54pm

KoolKid wrote: »

I heard of having to inform staff etc. Never heard of having to inform the Guards on every covert camera you install.

Local Sargent has to be informed as they can not be in place indefinitely.

KoolKid · 13-01-2015 9:07pm

Have never come across this or been asked to do this and I do quite a bit of work with the Guards. If you have any link to documentation about this regulation I'd really appreciate it.

altor · 13-01-2015 9:41pm

KoolKid wrote: »

Have never come across this or been asked to do this and I do quite a bit of work with the Guards. If you have any link to documentation about this regulation I'd really appreciate it.

No probs.

KoolKid · 13-01-2015 9:42pm

Link??

altor · 13-01-2015 9:45pm

KoolKid wrote: »

Link??

Will post a link when I have it.

KoolKid · 13-01-2015 9:47pm

Thanks. Ill check back.

altor · 13-01-2015 9:49pm

KoolKid wrote: »

Thanks. Ill check back.

No probs.

JillyQ · 13-01-2015 9:49pm

KoolKid wrote: »

I heard of having to inform staff etc. Never heard of having to inform the Guards on every covert camera you install.

Never heard of it either. And as far as i know there is nothing the PSA legislation that would say that it is necessary either. I attached a link from the data protection commissioner about CCTV as well. It doesnt seem to mention it either

KoolKid · 13-01-2015 9:57pm

JillyQ wrote: »

Never heard of it either. And as far as i know there is nothing the PSA legislation that would say that it is necessary either. I attached a link from the data protection commissioner about CCTV as well. It doesnt seem to mention it either

I agree.
But maybe Altor will show us he's right & post up that link he has.
It sure would benefit a lot of people here. Installers & public alike,

Joe Doe · 13-01-2015 10:05pm

Easy option was be to place a mini RDIF/bluetooth transmitter chip, placed within a bunch of 20's held together with an elastic band. Once this transmitter leaves the nearby receiver signal an alarm can be signaled and thereby a quick pocket/bag search should be able to be performed as this chip and the cash would be you property and the alert signal is reasonable cause for suspicion.

These are Similar in principal to the larger Loc8tor chips. 'loc8tor.com' also available on Amazon. Some variants also work on iphones via Apps. Else Android/Nokia versions also.

Like it or not, in the next few years there will be 'Trillions' of RDIF's tracking and monitoring 'everything', brought to you by 'the Internet of things'. Exercise/sleep wristbands are just the warm up.

altor · 13-01-2015 10:06pm

JillyQ wrote: »

Never heard of it either. And as far as i know there is nothing the PSA legislation that would say that it is necessary either. I attached a link from the data protection commissioner about CCTV as well. It doesnt seem to mention it either

I will ring tomorrow to see what they say. I was at a meeting with a data commission interpreter last year and from what he said they need to be informed. Might even be a superintendent who has to be informed.

Northern lassie · 13-01-2015 10:45pm

altor wrote: »

Have you any other cameras in use in work?

No we have no other cameras in operation. This is a very small office with only a handful of people working there.

Can see why it would be necessary to tell staff alright. Might defeat the purpose though!!

Thanks for all the replies.

KoolKid · 13-01-2015 10:48pm

Your welcome.
Not condoning this but I know people have have done it this way....
Install your covert camera 7 then confront the culprit if it shows up something.
Normally them viewing the images is enough for a confession or at least an uncontested dismissal.

nuckeythompson · 13-01-2015 10:59pm

all you need is a sign on the premises saying "these premises are under cctv" or something to that effect. job done. you can't put them in places such as changing rooms and toilets.
your cheapest diy option is a welcome with a long lead, failing that you can place a small camera for 200 Eur in the spy shop on dublin quays

JillyQ · 13-01-2015 11:03pm

nuckeythompson wrote: »

all you need is a sign on the premises saying "these premises are under cctv" or something to that effect. job done. you can't put them in places such as changing rooms and toilets.
your cheapest diy option is a welcome with a long lead, failing that you can place a small camera for 200 Eur in the spy shop on dublin quays

If you are installing CCTV and want it to be used in a court case you must be in compliance with the law yourself. The CCTV needs to be installed and commissioned by a licence installer. You are right in that you need signage as well.

the_syco · 13-01-2015 11:06pm

Northern lassie wrote: »

Can see why it would be necessary to tell staff alright. Might defeat the purpose though!!

Maybe tell staff of covert cameras for security purposes, install obvious not-so-cover camera that can be moved to the left or right by anyone, and other more covert cameras. Capturing person tampering with camera (moving it) and then stealing may add to your case?

As above, you have to need a licensed installer, as there were changes on who could install CCTV recently knocking most of the smaller operators out, as the license fees were too steep for them.

nuckeythompson · 14-01-2015 12:39am

JillyQ wrote:

If you are installing CCTV and want it to be used in a court case you must be in compliance with the law yourself. The CCTV needs to be installed and commissioned by a licence installer. You are right in that you need signage as well.

not necessarily, most forms of video are now admissible in court. such as the camera the garda use on front of shoulder, that model can be bought for I think about 400. it's a case of time stamping the video

JillyQ · 14-01-2015 12:57am

nuckeythompson wrote: »

not necessarily, most forms of video are now admissible in court. such as the camera the garda use on front of shoulder, that model can be bought for I think about 400. it's a case of time stamping the video

We are not talking about a system installed here or Garda use. We are talking about systems which must be installed by a licenced installer.

nuckeythompson · 14-01-2015 4:44pm

JillyQ wrote:

We are not talking about a system installed here or Garda use. We are talking about systems which must be installed by a licenced installer.

this devices in most cases are considered mobile devices, the above is not entertained by judges in recent times due to mobile phone footage being used as evidence more and more of late. the above is outdated any is constantly challenged in courts with more success

JillyQ · 14-01-2015 5:54pm

nuckeythompson wrote: »

this devices in most cases are considered mobile devices, the above is not entertained by judges in recent times due to mobile phone footage being used as evidence more and more of late. the above is outdated any is constantly challenged in courts with more success

Can you give us a link to a successful challenge to the legislation?

nuckeythompson · 14-01-2015 7:19pm

this is one link I can find at the moment regarding use of mobile phone footage being used in court

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/mobile-phone-footage-of-sexual-assault-leads-to-sentencing-1.1925365

Ill try to find something else but if you google you will see more and more video evidence is being used in courts at the judges discretion , sign of the times

altor · 14-01-2015 8:46pm

KoolKid wrote: »

Have never come across this or been asked to do this and I do quite a bit of work with the Guards. If you have any link to documentation about this regulation I'd really appreciate it.

Got on to them today and it has all being changed.
Even she was surprised as she was under the same impression that the guards had to be informed from previous guide lines. Its not in there anymore.

altor · 14-01-2015 8:48pm

http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?m=m&fn=/documents/guidance/cctv.htm

Covert surveillance.

The use of recording mechanisms to obtain data without an individual's knowledge is generally unlawful. Covert surveillance is normally only permitted on a case by case basis where the data are kept for the purposes of preventing, detecting or investigating offences, or apprehending or prosecuting offenders. This provision automatically implies that a written specific policy be put in place detailing the purpose, justification, procedure, measures and safeguards that will be implemented with the final objective being, an actual involvement of An Garda Síochána or other prosecution authorities for potential criminal investigation or civil legal proceedings being issued, arising as a consequence of an alleged committal of a criminal offence(s).

Covert surveillance must be focused and of short duration. Only specific (and relevant) individuals/locations should be recorded. If no evidence is obtained within a reasonable period, the surveillance should cease.

If the surveillance is intended to prevent crime, overt cameras may be considered to be a more appropriate measure, and less invasive of individual privacy.

KoolKid · 14-01-2015 8:58pm

altor wrote: »

http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?m=m&fn=/documents/guidance/cctv.htm

Covert surveillance.

The use of recording mechanisms to obtain data without an individual's knowledge is generally unlawful. Covert surveillance is normally only permitted on a case by case basis where the data are kept for the purposes of preventing, detecting or investigating offences, or apprehending or prosecuting offenders. This provision automatically implies that a written specific policy be put in place detailing the purpose, justification, procedure, measures and safeguards that will be implemented with the final objective being, an actual involvement of An Garda Síochána or other prosecution authorities for potential criminal investigation or civil legal proceedings being issued, arising as a consequence of an alleged committal of a criminal offence(s).

Covert surveillance must be focused and of short duration. Only specific (and relevant) individuals/locations should be recorded. If no evidence is obtained within a reasonable period, the surveillance should cease.

If the surveillance is intended to prevent crime, overt cameras may be considered to be a more appropriate measure, and less invasive of individual privacy.

Thanks for the quote.
Most of what its stating there would be covered in the system design proposal. After that lots of it is vague with guideline suggestions like should rather than must.It states the final objective would be involvement of the Guards, but where in that does it state you must inform An Garda Síochána prior to installation as you say here??

altor wrote: »

Covert cameras can be used but you must inform the guards in advance of any install, especially if you plan on using them as evidence.

Short Term CCTV One Room

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