Thermal store query

gomamochi1

Well lads had a plumber out today talking about a thermal store of a cylinder with direct feed from stove, oil boiler and solar futur proofing. Thinking of putting this 6' cylinder in the hot press and the way it sems to work is you have constant hot water . Anyone have this system in place rather than the traditional elements and coil fed cylinder from the boiler stove? Advice welcome as trying to size stove and this sytem don't require such a large kW output stove as the Stratford eb 25. Cheers

Calahonda52

This needs more work as its not clear what you are being sold here.
Can u describe the mission objectives here.
It all seems a bit fuzzy, almost Duncan Stuartesque
What are the HW demands and whats the time demand profile?
Can u post the name of the thermal store (TS) and any ancillary kit such as plate heat exchangers.
The idea seems to be that you are going to use the TS to store, initially, excess heat from the stove , so the more u burn, the more you store
The TS sounds small, the ones in the continent are up to 60, 000 litres so fitting something in the hot press sounds like a fancy name for a HW cylinder.
Also future proofing for solar thermal is not the way to go.
Google "solar thermal is dead" as I cant paste links

cerastes

Calahonda52 wrote: »

This needs more work as its not clear what you are being sold here.
Can u describe the mission objectives here.
It all seems a bit fuzzy, almost Duncan Stuartesque
What are the HW demands and whats the time demand profile?
Can u post the name of the thermal store (TS) and any ancillary kit such as plate heat exchangers.
The idea seems to be that you are going to use the TS to store, initially, excess heat from the stove , so the more u burn, the more you store
The TS sounds small, the ones in the continent are up to 60, 000 litres so fitting something in the hot press sounds like a fancy name for a HW cylinder.
Also future proofing for solar thermal is not the way to go.
Google "solar thermal is dead" as I cant paste links

Im open to opinion, but just based on one link I could find which refers to solar thermal in US locations being bested by PV, doesnt necessarily relate to here where labour is higher and our solar incidence is lower.
We dont suffer the freezing climates regularily mentioned in the article,

That said, I can see the advantage of a system without moving parts, and grid tying here isnt advantageous anyway.
Without reading back on anything I read in the past, I was under the impression solar thermal was better suited to more northerly latitudes, Id still be waiting on some specifications on the PV stuff, whos to say it isnt an article pushed by those selling PV systems?
Besides, some organisation will come along with some advantage for solar thermal or some other system that beast solar PV, then what? be a case of dont do anything ever as someone will come along with something better eventually.

You'd wonder if these systems ever pay off, if I could have afforded it, I definitely would have gone for solar thermal.

Calahonda52

Cerastes, thanks for measured contribution.
The OP needs to clarify what he is about as I suspect the TS is a fancy name..

The issue with Solar Thermal here, IMO, is the design process:
Q:how many nippers need to get washed very day:)
A: 6
Grand, thats 6 kids plus two adults plus the dog = X litres her day so thats a Y'00 litre tank.
At your Lat/long thats Z sq. m of panels and on a good day the heat requirement will be met by noon, meaning the remaining sunlight is not used.

The continental approach, in broad outline is to go for smaller panels that work all day and store the water in larger tanks.
They build houses with basements that can take these well insulated tanks at design stage.
{Here we are doing mainly retro or a bolt-on to meet Part L}
If the water is not hot enough for HW use it is brought up to above 60 deg C using inline gas heaters or elec heating.
The cooler water can be used for underfloor or in wall heating.

The larger systems use a stratified storage tank with water temps at the top of in excess of 100 deg C

look at www dot jenni dot ch
Keep well.

gomamochi1

Calahonda52 wrote: »

This needs more work as its not clear what you are being sold here.
Can u describe the mission objectives here.
It all seems a bit fuzzy, almost Duncan Stuartesque
What are the HW demands and whats the time demand profile?
Two adults 3 kids
Can u post the name of the thermal store (TS) and any ancillary kit such as plate heat exchangers.
300L Aquagold from AJ plumbing in Newry. Manufactured by Telford in the UK.
The idea seems to be that you are going to use the TS to store, initially, excess heat from the stove , so the more u burn, the more you store
The TS sounds small, the ones in the continent are up to 60, 000 litres so fitting something in the hot press sounds like a fancy name for a HW cylinder.
Also future proofing for solar thermal is not the way to go.
Google "solar thermal is dead" as I cant paste links

Thanks for the reply. I am just trying to get my head around this and any suggestions welcome! Looking for the most simple system to tie in a boiler stove, oil boiler and possibly solar panels in the futur when have more dosh.

gomamochi1

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Cerastes, thanks for measured contribution.
The OP needs to clarify what he is about as I suspect the TS is a fancy name..

The issue with Solar Thermal here, IMO, is the design process:
Q:how many nippers need to get washed very day:)
A: 6
Grand, thats 6 kids plus two adults plus the dog = X litres her day so thats a Y'00 litre tank.
At your Lat/long thats Z sq. m of panels and on a good day the heat requirement will be met by noon, meaning the remaining sunlight is not used.

The continental approach, in broad outline is to go for smaller panels that work all day and store the water in larger tanks.
They build houses with basements that can take these well insulated tanks at design stage.
{Here we are doing mainly retro or a bolt-on to meet Part L}
If the water is not hot enough for HW use it is brought up to above 60 deg C using inline gas heaters or elec heating.
The cooler water can be used for underfloor or in wall heating.

The larger systems use a stratified storage tank with water temps at the top of in excess of 100 deg C

look at www dot jenni dot ch
Keep well.

No under floor heating only dads on walls. Would love to have fitted it but could not afford!

cerastes

I like these kind of threads, not because I have any money there to put into it, but its good to keep open to ideas.

I had previously (not here) brought up NOT grid tying solar PV and running it into resistance heaters as there is a very un-progressive stance from what was the ESB (now the networks?). Ive read our conditions on tying into the grid with hardware are much stricter than anyone elses and the payback for feeding units into the grid is low, compared to even the UK where its incentivised, compared to here where it seems its a policy of actively disincentivising it, unless anything has changed in the last 2 years since I was reading about it.

My idea of using it solely to heat water using resistance type heaters seemed always to be denied as not using it for a quality purpose.
Obviously ideally you could feed into the grid/recharge your electric car and maybe to some lesser extent supply some of your electrical needs but the cost disadvantages of connecting to the grid, the standards requirements of doing that and the ongoing labour costs seemed to negate any benefit, so my idea of using to solely meet some or as much of your hotwater/space heating requirements never seemed to gain any support.

Reading the article got me thinking though, it was talking about air sourced heat pumps, Id always thought of ground sourced as a better option, but surely they seem to have more labour to instal, and more potential for higher maintenance costs. An air sourced unit seems like it could be smaller, located nearer with less pumping requirements (possibly?) in an area that is designed to retain, take advantage solar energy or magnify its benefits uising some kind of heat sink? which may create some advantage? ie on a side of a building that captures sunshine most of the time? and still have the advantage of being up to 3-4 times more efficient per electrical unit used than simply using resistance heating and could possibly be used to heat water or spaces? even if it only met the base load and topping up only with gas to top up what the heat pump cant produce, deal with extremes of temperature or when a rapid change in temperature is required.

Ive kinda been swayed, but what about any deterioration in performance over time with PV? how long do they last? can they be recycled to reuse any precious metals?
I also think whatever use a heat pump is for, it needs to be accurately calculated, although if the electricity has no ongoing fuel cost after installation? it seems like a good idea anyway.

If its possible you could meet your main heating requirements this way for 20-25 years if PV cells can last that long, you'd think there would be incentives to do this as it reduces our need to build new electrical generating capacity in the future, has the potential to reduce our demand during the hours it could operate.
Im still sure it would face opposition from someone in someway not to the advantage of the majority.

gomamochi1

right oh, did some investigating and discovered the difference between ss 300 ltr traditional open vented cylinder and a 300 ltr ss pressurised thermal store- both take 3 heat sources- solar, oil and back boiler stove. But the thermal store is working opposite to trad cylinder ie the mains fed water is run through a coil in the cylinder and the grey water feeds the rads/ under floor heating etc. Seems to be very poplar in N Ireland over the past few years but not so much down south. Thermal store works if you want a complete pressurized system from the mains booster pump and all taps/ showers etc coming off this are pressurised. I am going towards the trad system with open vented cylinder, and a shower pump only on the shower and the rest fed by the tank gravity feed in the attic. Can anyone clarify if I am undersanding this ok as I am still a bit flustered as it appears that you need to keep the thermal store at the correct temp all the time even when out so as to maintain its efficiency as it wont wok as in having to come in a heat up 300 ltrs of water to turn on the rads etc...Futur proofing for solar and installing back boiler stove for now along with oil boiler.
Cheers for the advice