can a teacher refuse to have a child in their classroom?

GERMAN ROCKS

I am just wondering can a teacher refuse to allow a student into their classroom? If a student is very disruptive in a classroom and the teacher refuses to teach them what is the stance taken. Now said child is not a health and safety hazard but is just a constant messer and disrupting the classes progress by commenting out of turn and distracting others and requiring the teacher to have to stop teaching to reprimand the student.

secondary school situation

NewCorkLad

I would take it that it is the teachers duty to provide teaching and learning to everyone in the class and if 1 student is preventing this, I would say he should be kicked out until the Principal and Parents deal with the situation.

rainbowtrout

GERMAN ROCKS wrote: »

I am just wondering can a teacher refuse to allow a student into their classroom? If a student is very disruptive in a classroom and the teacher refuses to teach them what is the stance taken. Now said child is not a health and safety hazard but is just a constant messer and disrupting the classes progress by commenting out of turn and distracting others and requiring the teacher to have to stop teaching to reprimand the student.

secondary school situation

i think first you would have to go through the disciplinary channels in the school. What has been done so far? Has their year head been notified, what documentation do you have as evidence? Have the student's parents been contacted?

I know it's frustrating, but if disciplinary policies aren't followed, you won't have a case.

gaiscioch

GERMAN ROCKS wrote: »

I am just wondering can a teacher refuse to allow a student into their classroom? If a student is very disruptive in a classroom and the teacher refuses to teach them what is the stance taken. Now said child is not a health and safety hazard but is just a constant messer and disrupting the classes progress by commenting out of turn and distracting others and requiring the teacher to have to stop teaching to reprimand the student.

secondary school situation

Here's my take on this. As a teacher I have a few brownie points with the principal. If a kid is a confirmed little gurrier who is consistently up to absolutely no good in my class I can decide to use up one of those precious points to respectfully ask the principal that he not be allowed in based on numerous instances of undermining other students' education, broken promises with regard to changing his behaviour and the ineffectiveness of previous meetings with the parents (i.e. every other solution would have to have been tried). It would also depend on the principal having a place for the little gallut (learning support, where they can bitch about you 'til the cows come home, is generally where they go in my school).

If the principal has it together they'll help you out - but use your "brownie points" wisely.

evolving_doors

GERMAN ROCKS wrote: »

I am just wondering can a teacher refuse to allow a student into their classroom? If a student is very disruptive in a classroom and the teacher refuses to teach them what is the stance taken. Now said child is not a health and safety hazard but is just a constant messer and disrupting the classes progress by commenting out of turn and distracting others and requiring the teacher to have to stop teaching to reprimand the student.

secondary school situation

the low level disruptors are the worst. Yould wish they just burned down the school and make it an easy process to suspend.

My take is that if they are Not misbehaving in other teachers classes then yer on yer own as regards the principal.... also be clear about and document any punishments given as the student will inevitably claim you are the only one who has it in for them. Write in all notes of misbehaviour into their journal also.

Information is key, so find all the other teachers of the student and see what theyre like in that class, find the subject they are best at and talk to that teacher. Some school's are really proactive in helping a colleague out so you probably will know what the lay of the land is in seeking help. Yould be surprised at who wil be the most helpful, but definitely dont go it alone.


Find out about home situation.
Find out what the student likes (hobbies etc)...
Salut them in the corridor with a big smile. Being gruff only makes then think theyve gotten to you and will justify their cause even further.

It depends on the year group to as the impending JC/LC EXAM can cause a few to throw in the towel and act out.

Ive only ever had 2 of these types before, really sucked the life out of me, and the rest of the class were sick of it too so I know where your'e at.

gaeilgebeo

I really think it depends on the school.
Who will supervise them?
What if every teacher in the school wanted to remove a student?

If we were allowed remove students as described by the OP (paperwork and all), there would be very few students left in the classrooms and I don't know where all those disruptive ones would go or who would be in charge of supervision.

You do have my sympathy, I know how hard it can be.
If you are allowed remove them, you are lucky!

gaiscioch

I've heard - although the person telling me could be just trying to get the rise out of me - that some schools have a thing called a "care room" where you just send disruptive students to and they are supervised. That sounds too good to be true.

r93kaey5p2izun

It will depend on the school I think. Tolerance levels will vary. What you describe in the OP would be considered perfectly normal, everyday behaviour in my school. Assault is the only thing deemed grounds for permanent removal from a class in my school and even then you would be expected to start over with a clean slate in a new year. Sometimes other teachers may agree to take a student (where subjects taught at the same time to whole year groups) and help each other out - again this would have to be ok within a particular school.

Try discussing it with DP or principal or whoever to look for a solution but I don't think there's any solid grounds on which teachers can refuse a student generally.

spurious

gaiscioch wrote: »

I've heard - although the person telling me could be just trying to get the rise out of me - that some schools have a thing called a "care room" where you just send disruptive students to and they are supervised. That sounds too good to be true.

We tried that in one school I taught in. Chaos.

One 'down with the kids' teacher gave them a choice to stay in his class or go to the room. Needless to say 20 odd of them charged down the stairs.

I would argue that where a student has a proven history of violence against teachers or students, I am only acting in loco parentis for the other students if I refuse to take said thug into my room. Before I retired, I had such an individual. I told the DP I was quite prepared to go all the way (ETB, DES etc.) if forced to take him back into my class after he knocked out a colleague. He never showed up in my room again - I don't know and I don't care what happened him. I know knowing I was going at the end of the year strengthened my hand, but some days you just have to draw a line at how much abuse you will take.

man_no_plan

spurious wrote: »

We tried that in one school I taught in. Chaos.

One 'down with the kids' teacher gave them a choice to stay in his class or go to the room. Needless to say 20 odd of them charged down the stairs.

I would argue that where a student has a proven history of violence against teachers or students, I am only acting in loco parentis for the other students if I refuse to take said thug into my room. Before I retired, I had such an individual. I told the DP I was quite prepared to go all the way (ETB, DES etc.) if forced to take him back into my class after he knocked out a colleague. He never showed up in my room again - I don't know and I don't care what happened him. I know knowing I was going at the end of the year strengthened my hand, but some days you just have to draw a line at how much abuse you will take.

Thankfully we have never had a situation like that in our school. If it did happen it would be straight to the BOM never mind getting into a class.

As for disruption to classes, there's no easy answer, you cant just dump a kid out and hope he makes his way to the office, chances are a messer like that will go awol.

Classroom management will cone into it, have you applied punishments, have you contacted parents etc, follow procedures and of they don't achieve results then its time for the next level.

The dp or p coning in and going ape**** at your class will work for about 10mins.

If its a case of a serious disruption that's ongoing in a lot of classes defo one for senior management.

doc_17

Go through the discipline procedure. When it's exhausted then take your stand. Get the other kids on your side too if you can.

I've refused entry to a kid before. I'm sure I should have or if it would have stood up to scrutiny but I know it worked. A week later he came and apologised and that was that.

It might backfire on you though if you don't have the backup.

gubbie

I had one co worker refuse. He was a big big guy and he had his class ran like no others but this kid accused him of bullying her because she was the only one he was making repeat her test (she was the only one who failed and he had a policy of you do it until you pass).

The mother took her side so he said he refuses to teach a child who made false accusations against him.

I can't imagine you could refuse to teach someone for being disruptive. I think there's a lot that would need to be tried before you could kick him out

aunt aggie

When I read the OP, I immediately thought GermanRocks meant removing a student on a temporary basis but many poster here seem to think they meant permanently. Maybe some clarification would help.

Also saying someone is a constant messer can mean two different things in two different classes. Would you feel comfortable elaborating OP?

GERMAN ROCKS

aunt aggie wrote: »

When I read the OP, I immediately thought GermanRocks meant removing a student on a temporary basis but many poster here seem to think they meant permanently. Maybe some clarification would help.

Also saying someone is a constant messer can mean two different things in two different classes. Would you feel comfortable elaborating OP?

yes, you took it up right. I didn't say anything in the tread because it was interesting in itself. Said child is actually a nice child under it all but just very talkative/ unfocused. Has serious ability if they were to knuckle down. probably a nice person to get on with outside the classroom but just cant sit still/ be quiet in class.

I should have clarified. what I meant is it possible to refuse him entry maybe for a class or two to scare him a bit and make him realise that the teacher isn't going to put up with the messing and that the child needs to cop on or find someone out of school who is going to teach them the subject.

happywithlife

I wouldn't think you would get management to agree to remove a student for being talkative - no matter how disruptive they are. If said kid is basically a good one, would a god firm word outside of class time not be more appropriate. It sounds to me as if they don't realise how disruptive their behaviour is.
I'd have thought your only grounds for removing a student would be health & safety and serious disruption of the class to the point of prohibiting the learning of others in the classroom.

I've used a simple technique in the past with one chatty students"who couldn't help it" and I think genuinely didn't realise just how much they were talking in class.
A seat near the front where they could my desk. I had a sheet of paper on it with a pen next to it. If I had to correct her for talking I wrote down her name - I operated a "3 strikes and you're out" Rule. With the backing of management that I could sent her to them if needs be. It helped her realise the extent of her talking and she quickly moderated it.
One of the easier problems solved ��

Pinkycharm

gaiscioch wrote: »

I've heard - although the person telling me could be just trying to get the rise out of me - that some schools have a thing called a "care room" where you just send disruptive students to and they are supervised. That sounds too good to be true.

We have one. The vice principal does it you just give them the work. It's a room to the side of his office. Only fits about 8 students with desks, chairs and a whiteboard.

gaiscioch

Pinkycharm wrote: »

We have one. The vice principal does it you just give them the work. It's a room to the side of his office. Only fits about 8 students with desks, chairs and a whiteboard.

Interesting. Presumably the deterrent to being sent there is that after a certain number of times you get after school detention, suspension or some such thing?

GalwayGirl26

I really don't think being talk active/unfocused is any where near the grounds for refusing to allow them into class.
Attacking another student is where my school draws the line on having them removed from one class to another....

Saipanne

GERMAN ROCKS wrote: »

yes, you took it up right. I didn't say anything in the tread because it was interesting in itself. Said child is actually a nice child under it all but just very talkative/ unfocused. Has serious ability if they were to knuckle down. probably a nice person to get on with outside the classroom but just cant sit still/ be quiet in class.

I should have clarified. what I meant is it possible to refuse him entry maybe for a class or two to scare him a bit and make him realise that the teacher isn't going to put up with the messing and that the child needs to cop on or find someone out of school who is going to teach them the subject.

Could the child have a psychiatric issue?

man_no_plan

Saipanne wrote: »

Could the child have a psychiatric issue?

If he keeps talking the teacher will

byhookorbycrook

Being talkative isn't grounds for a child not being allowed in class. You need to go to the school discipline policy and see what sanctions you can use.

seavill

What have you tried with this kid, I certainly haven't heard of a case in any of the schools I have worked in (6 or 7) where someone could be removed for just being talkative and nothing else. I have had someone removed previously on H&S grounds (woodwork room) for a short period.
Have you gone through all the discipline procedures in the school? Have you escalated it to class tutor, year head? Have you spoken with the principal or DP and asked them to have a word with the student? Have you spoken to other teachers of this student to see what works and what doesn't work with them? Which classes do they behave in and why?

If I were the principal they would be all the questions I would be asking you. Not referring to you specifically OP as I don't know whether you have or you haven't done this or not, but I feel a lot of the time Irish teachers have a fear of asking for help or ideas. If someone behaves next door but not in mine the first thing I'd do is ask the teacher next door what he does that I don't do. If I have someone that behaves for me but doesn't for others I have no problem helping out those other teachers. It might be giving them ideas but it also might be where I will have a word myself with the student to try to influence their behavior in the other class. It's amazing how well this works.

Saipanne

man_no_plan wrote: »

If he keeps talking the teacher will

Lovely. What a lovely comment.

man_no_plan

Saipanne wrote: »

Lovely. What a lovely comment.

Relax why don't you.

You're the one suggesting the kid has mental health issues, diagnosed purely as a result of incessant talking, really! Come on...

spurious

If a child has psychiatric issues, teachers are not the people to be treating it.

Saipanne

spurious wrote: »

If a child has psychiatric issues, teachers are not the people to be treating it.

Really?

hdowney

Yea really. they are not qualified to do so.

evolving_doors

Wellllll just maybe check in with learning support in case the kid might have been on the radar at some stage. Although if theyre not acting out in other classes then chances are its just you OP. Often students who have good ability ( and are told such) start to get the heeby jeebies as the exams loom. Not trying for fear of failure is a logical option in their minds.

Pinkycharm

gaiscioch wrote: »

Interesting. Presumably the deterrent to being sent there is that after a certain number of times you get after school detention, suspension or some such thing?

First is 100'lines
Detention x3 after two times and three times
No extra curricular for 1 month or no year activity/trip and one day of saturday study after 4
Suspension after 4. If no saturday study done above its automatic suspension for three days.
5 is automatic 3 day suspension
After 5 goes student is taken on their own for extra

aunt aggie

Pinkycharm wrote: »

First is 100'lines
Detention x3 after two times and three times
No extra curricular for 1 month or no year activity/trip and one day of saturday study after 4
Suspension after 4. If no saturday study done above its automatic suspension for three days.
5 is automatic 3 day suspension
After 5 goes student is taken on their own for extra

I love how clear and consistent your schools behaviour policy sounds.

Pwpane

GERMAN ROCKS wrote: »

I am just wondering can a teacher refuse to allow a student into their classroom? If a student is very disruptive in a classroom and the teacher refuses to teach them what is the stance taken. Now said child is not a health and safety hazard but is just a constant messer and disrupting the classes progress by commenting out of turn and distracting others and requiring the teacher to have to stop teaching to reprimand the student.

secondary school situation

Something I have found invaluable on the rare occasion is the help of a colleague who will take a messer into their class for me, pre-arranged, as either a punishment when the behaviour is particularly over the top or just as a respite for myself and for my class when the behaviour is persistent. I have also taken students into my class to help colleagues.

It works best if the colleague is teaching the same subject at the same level, and is close by. No loss of teaching time for the student but a disconcerting change of scene. Otherwise work can be set, if only to study/read the text book. You need to iron out the details with the other teacher, and be careful about leaving your own class unattended if you need to walk the student to the other classroom. Be sure to meet the student afterwards too.

It was/is not widely used in the school and is not encouraged but I always found it very effective. In the policy, it came under 'temporary separation from peers'. I think perhaps that its rarity made it especially effective.