How can we make this easier?

PhoenixParker

The commentary on the mass in the how to annoy your wedding guests thread has brought up a bug bear of mine.

Why is it so damn difficult to get married in this country?

Getting the registrar to do it means you're restricted to Monday to Friday and even getting them to marry you outside the registry office is awkward. For a Friday appointment you need to book months in advance, especially if you want an afternoon appointment.

For a weekend wedding it's the humanists et al. or nothing. Even if there were more than twenty qualified to perform ceremonies in the whole country and you could actually get hold of them, I (and most couples getting married) have no affinity to the humanists/spiritual union etc.

I can see why so many non-believers opt for a catholic wedding. You can get married on a Saturday, there are hundreds of priests who can perform the ceremony and even if the bride and groom aren't believers, they at least have some sort of family/personal link to Catholicism.

Even if they're not going to open up the registration of marriages to Joe Soap off the street, why the heck can't a commissioner of oaths (for instance) certify the legal contract that is marriage?

Aside: I'm a member of toastmasters and I've often wondered why an organisation like toastmasters can't have a program to train marriage celebrants with the ability to legally certify weddings.

lazygal

I don't think its particularly difficult to get married in Ireland, and I say that as someone who got married twice, once legally and the second time by a humanist celebrant.

From being at the stage of a lot of friends getting married, its sheer inertia that steers many people towards a church wedding. They simply don't bother looking at alternatives, they figure it'll keep the parents happy and they don't have to worry at all about the format because its a well trodden path.

I have pointed out to people who claim that they are only having a church wedding to appease parents that there are many alternatives, but they often say that's too much hassle and they aren't too bothered about the whole church thing anyway.

I would love a French style system, where everyone is required to have exactly the same legal civil ceremony and after that you can do what you like.

Milly33

That is a very good idea for a member of the toastmasters to do the wedding.. Sure in reality why can the person working in the civil office do it. I presume it is just a matter of they know how to do the paper work...

And true why cant a commissioner of the oaths do it or even courts..

I understand people who are religious want to go to the church and a lot of people are pushed towards it by their parents. But even on that line why cant the priest come to you and do the blessing in the house or where you would like it. Fine you have to pay extra but then at least you have options.


Id hate to say it, well actually no I don't hate to say it "Its is all about the Money so it is, even with the church, they couldn't give too hoots about who you are and who you are marrying tis all well how can I make money..

pwurple

It's really not difficult at all to get married here. We had an idea of what we wanted (outdoor wedding, yes priest, no church)... looked at the list of solemnisers and just did it. Got married 3.5 months after we got engaged.

People are either too afraid to phone people, or talk to people, or hear weird rumours and don't bother opening their gob and asking for whatever they want. It's really not hard for any grown up to organise getting married. The list of solemnisers is even available online.

If you don't want a priest there are various other religions and non-religions available.

1) Arrange solemniser
2) Arrange an appointment to give notice.
3) Get married.

And to be honest, it's a free market. If you see a gap in the market, want to set yourself up as a solemniser and spend your saturdays doing weddings, I'm sure you can. Charge for a nice service, done.

rainbow kirby

Finding a combination of venue and humanist celebrant on a Saturday is a very delicate balancing act - we ended up only having one available in the entire country on our preferred date, booking 11 months in advance. Some of them have geographic restrictions too (only working in the Dublin region or in Cork/Kerry), which was a pain in the arse when looking for someone for Limerick. We wanted a Saturday because with most of my side living in Dublin and a few of my friends living on the continent it's just fairer overall to have it at the weekend.

Much easier to have a non-religious wedding in the UK, to have the most basic civil ceremony near where I live - max 12 people in a room at Islington town hall, and on a Monday or Tuesday morning - is £50 and requires only 16 days notice. This goes up to a peak of £1,200 for a registrar to come out to your venue on Christmas Day.

Having a church wedding was never an option for us - neither of us is religious and I'm not going to lie on such an important day for the sake of a pretty venue.

pwurple

rainbow kirby wrote: »

we ended up only having one available in the entire country on our preferred date

This is possibly part of the issue. We approached it from the other direction... found out what dates the solumniser was available, then found a venue with a matching date. We found it very straightforward and painless.

I can imagine if you pick a date first, then a venue and THEN go looking to find someone that matches the other criteria set in stone, you might end up finding it more difficult.

Milly33

Yeah I suppose it is where you are planning from. If like that you have picked your date then it works out as a problem but if you aren't in a rush or anything then you are ok...

rainbow kirby

We weren't absolutely attached to our date - it's more that we went around to the venues we were interested in and got a list of their available dates between May and October, counted a couple out straight away (one of them only had Fridays available in that period, we would have had to go in April or take something around Halloween if we wanted a Saturday), then picked a venue which had a few good dates available (May/June), and then went looking for a solemniser for one of those dates. We ended up finding a humanist for the UK May bank holiday weekend and a spiritualist for mid-June, and ended up going for May.

mrsbyrne

People seem to approach these things backwards. They pick a date and a venue for their marriage celebrations and the vaguely start looking around for "somebody" to conduct the ceremony. Then, quelle surprise! There is no "somebody" available on that date. Then that somehow becomes "somebodys" fault? I don't understand it myself. Since when we're civil service officials free on a Saturday afternoon at 2pm?

rainbow kirby

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Since when we're civil service officials free on a Saturday afternoon at 2pm?

Not a problem here, it just costs a little more.

PhoenixParker

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Finding a combination of venue and humanist celebrant on a Saturday is a very delicate balancing act -

This is what I'm getting at. Solemnising a wedding in this country isn't a free market. There's a very very restricted list of people who can do it and most of those have big restrictions on when (civil registrars) or who and where (religious registrars) they will marry.

When I rang up in November looking for a Friday date in May in the civil registration office there was a choice of 10.30 on the 8th, 11.30 on the 15th or 12.30 on the 29th. There were no options for a Friday mid-afternoon which is what I wanted. Most countries I've read about you don't struggle to find a suitable time for a wedding ceremony at the registrars office. The OH grew up in Sweden, there you ring up two weeks before hand to make sure the slot you want is free. Granted here it'll always be three months, but why not have a much larger number of people able to register marriages working for the civil service. There's clearly a demand for it, and it doesn't need to be their full time job, and why do they restrict themselves to office hours?

Pretty much the only group of registrars who operate freely (no religious or time requirements) are the humanists +assorted few others, and there are very very few of them. Lining one up for a specific date & location at short notice really should be possible and in many cases it isn't.

Getting your name added to the list of solemnisers is very difficult. You have to be a long term member of a recognised organisation, and only non-commercial organisations can be recognised, which is a difficult and long process in itself. I can't see why they've made it so difficult. In many countries literally anyone can add their name to the list of solemnisers, in others you fill the paperwork out at the civil office but your ceremony is basically self solemnised by your own signature (no need for any officiant to be on an official list). Even if the government don't want to go that far, there doesn't seem to be a reason not to open it up considerably.

If someone wants to get married on a Friday afternoon or horror of horrors a Saturday they really should be able to book it three months in advance without difficulty. I just feel we need a much bigger pool of non-religious solemnisers and there's no good reason there shouldn't be.

PhoenixParker

pwurple wrote: »

And to be honest, it's a free market. If you see a gap in the market, want to set yourself up as a solemniser and spend your saturdays doing weddings, I'm sure you can. Charge for a nice service, done.

That's it.
It's not a free market, you can't just set yourself up as a solemniser.
To legally do weddings there's a whole heap of very restrictive criteria and hoops you've to jump through.

A2LUE42

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Finding a combination of venue and humanist celebrant on a Saturday is a very delicate balancing act - we ended up only having one available in the entire country on our preferred date, booking 11 months in advance. Some of them have geographic restrictions too (only working in the Dublin region or in Cork/Kerry), which was a pain in the arse when looking for someone for Limerick. We wanted a Saturday because with most of my side living in Dublin and a few of my friends living on the continent it's just fairer overall to have it at the weekend.

Much easier to have a non-religious wedding in the UK, to have the most basic civil ceremony near where I live - max 12 people in a room at Islington town hall, and on a Monday or Tuesday morning - is £50 and requires only 16 days notice. This goes up to a peak of £1,200 for a registrar to come out to your venue on Christmas Day.

Having a church wedding was never an option for us - neither of us is religious and I'm not going to lie on such an important day for the sake of a pretty venue.

Getting Married soon in Limerick with a Humanist Celebrant on a Saturday, no issues getting it organised. She was really easy to deal with and is based in Limerick.

pwurple

Having to "jump through hoops" basically means filling out forms. Much like insuring a car or buying a house, but simpler. The real barriers are that no-one wants to make it worth their while. Especially there is a competing set of people who provide the service for a very low cost.

If someone paid me enough you can be sure I'd register myself. Would want to be a good bit for me to drive to the arse end of nowhere on my Saturday mind you. Anyone want to hire pwurple's new team of super-solumnisers for 3000 euro per saturday wedding? Didn't think so.


And if you know you are going to turn your nose up at 98% of the solumnisers because the times available are not good enough, or they are not the specific creed you want... Then logic dictates that you should book the scarce resource first, and then arrange the rest.

ABajaninCork

Or marry in the UK. You only need 15 days notice, and there's no end of decent venues. Oh - and the marriage will be recognised here too, so no need to register it...

stinkle

I vaguely remember reading comments around the time Humanist ceremonies were legalised that the strict restrictions were in place to prevent Vegas-style quickie marriages... I think Joan Burton was speaking about it. The reason the Humanists were legalised then was they fit several criteria along the lines of not-for-profit, and had been carrying non-legally binding marriages out for at least 5 years. So any new organisation that wants to conduct weddings will have to fit these criteria before getting legal recognition.

It seems a little strict to me - and wildly far removed from turning Ireland into the new Las Vegas! But that's one of the reasons why things are the way they are. And to the best of my recollection, the no HSE weddings on weekends is/was to do with the moratorium on overtime and hiring freezes due to austerity measures.

I do wonder if the Marriage Equality referendum passes what the demand will be like for civil and humanist weddings as theyre so stretched already.

rainbow kirby

Funnily enough, in the UK humanist marriage ceremonies are still not legally binding, a separate civil ceremony is still needed.

ABajaninCork

Neither are Catholic ceremonies - unless the priest is a registrar. Otherwise you have to book one to attend.

ameee

We are having a humanist celebrant marry us in march and I found the whole thing very easy to arrange. We only started organising the wedding in October. There are a few new solemnisers added to the list recently so that should help. I would find the church route more difficult, having to do pre marriage courses and all that.

Typer Monkey

I had a civil ceremony in the hotel where the reception was held. Speaking to the registrar at the registering of intent meeting she said that the popularity of civil ceremonies has exploded at a time when there is a recruitment embargo in the civil and public sectors so they just can't keep up with demand with the existing numbers.

pwurple

ameee wrote: »

I would find the church route more difficult, having to do pre marriage courses and all that.

Pre-marriage course is optional.

lazygal

pwurple wrote: »

Pre-marriage course is optional.

Depends on the priest though. From anecdotal stories some parishes (mine would be one) there's no option but to do it if you want a church wedding. I've known people living together years who have children who were told they had to do one, and a specific one at that.

ShaShaBear

I've been told I have quite a few hoops to jump through because of my birth cert being English (when I rang to book an appointment), and as both our passports have expired, we have to renew those as well.

pwurple

lazygal wrote: »

I've known people living together years who have children who were told they had to do one, and a specific one at that.

I wonder was that more like... It was suggested and they felt they couldn't say no?

Now, I don't think the pre-marriage courses are necessarily a bad thing. I've not done one myself.. But they are supposed to be quite practical and positive experiences. They bring up issues that couples had not discussed their views on.

I'd half-suspect that it may be just as relevant for couples who have children before they get married... I expect them to be true optimists! Never expecting the worst case (like maternal death during childbirth). No will made, etc.

lazygal

pwurple wrote: »

I wonder was that more like... It was suggested and they felt they couldn't say no?

Now, I don't think the pre-marriage courses are necessarily a bad thing. I've not done one myself.. But they are supposed to be quite practical and positive experiences. They bring up issues that couples had not discussed their views on.

I'd half-suspect that it may be just as relevant for couples who have children before they get married... I expect them to be true optimists! Never expecting the worst case (like maternal death during childbirth). No will made, etc.

Definitely not suggested in this neck of the woods. It is compulsory and people are told this and I would not say it's that unusual. I've friends who married in our college chapel who were told by various priests the course was compulsory as well as friends who married outside the pale who had to do it. None of whom would be shrinking violets about asking if something was compulsory.
I think your experience of a priest who not only performs ceremonies outside a church but doesn't insist on premarriage courses is somewhat unusual. It would be very different from what I've heard from friends.

pwurple

Different parishes I guess. It's fairly normal here.

lazygal

pwurple wrote: »

Different parishes I guess. It's fairly normal here.

You're in Cork? I've relatives there (city and more rural areas) and so far my cousins and other family all went the church route, did the premarriage courses, had the standard mass ceremony etc. Whereabouts is it fairly normal for priests to do outdoor ceremonies for the marriage ceremony?
I'm based in Dublin but we've been to weddings in most counties including Cork. Never knew Catholic priests did outdoor ceremonies. I'm sure they'd be in demand in other parishes if they were willing to travel. Pat Buckley is the only Catholic celebrant I've heard of doing outdoor Catholic ceremonies.

GarIT

Would people be interested in marriages on the weekend that were not legally binding and then going and getting it done legally alone? Also how does the process of a civil marriage go, do you have to have a ceremony or can you just sign a form without any words being said?

lazygal

GarIT wrote: »

Would people be interested in marriages on the weekend that were not legally binding and then going and getting it done legally alone? Also how does the process of a civil marriage go, do you have to have a ceremony or can you just sign a form without any words being said?

We did the standard no frills legal ceremony. The words are quite nice which we were surprised by. There are certain things which are legal requirements to be said. We would highly recommend the legal route followed by a totally personal customised ceremony. It suited us really well and we love having two different marriage ceremonies to look back on. I would love the French system here, where everyone has the same ceremony and after that you're free to do another one if you want. I found the basic civil ceremony quite moving

pwurple

I meant not insisting on pre-marriage courses.

I don't know too many people who want outdoor tbh. Churches are often beautiful buildings, which are very nice for weddings.

No, pat Buckley wasn't mine...

I was assuming that the closer you get to Dublin the more of a deValera ideal-style scary priest you get. Yikes.

If it's not that, it could be that a lot of the priests I know are, or were missionaries. A bit of international experience puts things in perspective.

GarIT

lazygal wrote: »

We did the standard no frills legal ceremony. The words are quite nice which we were surprised by. There are certain things which are legal requirements to be said. We would highly recommend the legal route followed by a totally personal customised ceremony. It suited us really well and we love having two different marriage ceremonies to look back on. I would love the French system here, where everyone has the same ceremony and after that you're free to do another one if you want. I found the basic civil ceremony quite moving

Thanks for the info.

I find that disappointing in a way that not in a way, you shouldn't have to subscribe to someone else's idea of marriage to get married. To some marriage is just a financial agreement, nothing more than a business transaction, the state should offer the choice of just signing a document. A solicitor should be able to arrange it just like buying a house, it is a legal document after all.

It's like swearing on the constitution, it's not going to make me any less likely to lie, it's just words that mean nothing. God, I'm depressing.

Market research into non legally binding weddings is something I may look into though.

lazygal

GarIT wrote: »

Thanks for the info.

I find that disappointing in a way that not in a way, you shouldn't have to subscribe to someone else's idea of marriage to get married. To some marriage is just a financial agreement, nothing more than a business transaction, the state should offer the choice of just signing a document. A solicitor should be able to arrange it just like buying a house, it is a legal document after all.

Market research into non legally binding weddings is something I may look into though.

I would think it's fairly unusual to have marriage as a purely financial arrangement and nothing more. I'm not going to lie, financial and legal arrangements were a major reason we got married instead of living together only and especially because we wanted children to be born into a marriage rather than us being single in the eye of the law. Most people would want at least a semblance of romance on a wedding day.
We did no research into the civil ceremony and only did it as it was a legal requirement as at the time humanist celebrants weren't legal. But it still surprised us and our parents who were the only witnesses as to how meaningful it was.

pwurple

lazygal wrote: »

I would love the French system here, where everyone has the same ceremony and after that you're free to do another one if you want. I found the basic civil ceremony quite moving

Completely agree that would be great.

The French have another state that someone once tried to explain to me in a pub... So I'm very hazy. Some sort of semi-married system where there are rights, but it is simpler to get out if than divorce. That would suit loads of couples here too.

tinkerbell

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I've been told I have quite a few hoops to jump through because of my birth cert being English (when I rang to book an appointment), and as both our passports have expired, we have to renew those as well.

There's no hoop to jump through, you just need to get an apostille stamp for your birth cert. Renewing your passport would be a fairly standard request because your main form of identification is out of date..

lazygal

pwurple wrote: »

Completely agree that would be great.

The French have another state that someone once tried to explain to me in a pub... So I'm very hazy. Some sort of semi-married system where there are rights, but it is simpler to get out if than divorce. That would suit loads of couples here too.

Yes I've cousins in similar arrangements. It's like a civil partnership and you've some property and inheritance rights as well as protection for children, but not as much as married couples.

GarIT

lazygal wrote: »

I would think it's fairly unusual to have marriage as a purely financial arrangement and nothing more. I'm not going to lie, financial and legal arrangements were a major reason we got married instead of living together only and especially because we wanted children to be born into a marriage rather than us being single in the eye of the law. Most people would want at least a semblance of romance on a wedding day.
We did no research into the civil ceremony and only did it as it was a legal requirement as at the time humanist celebrants weren't legal. But it still surprised us and our parents who were the only witnesses as to how meaningful it was.

The way I see it is that I'm committed to my GF there is nothing I could say that would make me more committed. I'm probably an outlier though.

I hope I don't offend anyone but a Humanist wedding is religious IMO. I'd be as reluctant to go for that as a catholic one.

lazygal

GarIT wrote: »

The way I see it is that I'm committed to my GF there is nothing I could say that would make me more committed. I'm probably an outlier though.

Tbh once we moved in we were good as married in my eyes. Unfortunately though in Ireland we would be vulnerable in terms of next of kin, end of life, inheritance and offspring decisions. Getting married was a no brainer given all the legal protection you get from what's a very easy and cheap process. No one even needs to know. We decided on our witnesses on the day we married.


Humanist weddings aren't religious. We aren't religious and there was no religion in our ceremony. Anyway all you need is the basic state required ceremony and anyone in a stable committed relationship should really consider the legal repercussions of not being married from a practical rather than ideological perspective.

GarIT

lazygal wrote: »

Tbh once we moved in we were good as married in my eyes. Unfortunately though in Ireland we would be vulnerable in terms of next of kin, end of life, inheritance and offspring decisions. Getting married was a no brainer given all the legal protection you get from what's a very easy and cheap process. No one even needs to know. We decided on our witnesses on the day we married.

That's similar to how I feel about it. I'm in a slightly different situation, we moved in together after a couple of months for college but at this stage there isn't much more commitment, marriage doesn't offer anything extra to me other than the legal and financial benefits.

Herself is mostly the same but she wants the big party There could be problems down the line though as there is no way I'd get married in a church or by a humanist, the plan is a hotel but getting someone to do it will be the problem.

The joys of "a catholic country"

lazygal

You can have a party but that doesn't mean you need a certain celebrant. Some people do the legal thing and have friends marry them in a more personal ceremony. No need to do the traditional things unless you want to.

GarIT

lazygal wrote: »

You can have a party but that doesn't mean you need a certain celebrant. Some people do the legal thing and have friends marry them in a more personal ceremony. No need to do the traditional things unless you want to.

That's actually a great idea, I was thinking about just a regular person anyway. A parent, or more than one could be a good idea.

ShaShaBear

tinkerbell wrote: »

There's no hoop to jump through, you just need to get an apostille stamp for your birth cert. Renewing your passport would be a fairly standard request because your main form of identification is out of date..

And I tried to get an Apostille stamp, and the registration office in London is under the impression my short-form birth cert has one, and that it is suitable for the purpose, while CRO here say it is not an apostille stamp, nor is it an acceptable birth cert