The lease is up and I want the tenant out

harry999

Hi The tenant in the house I rent is not good(noise etc) & the lease is up on 06/02/2015. I have told them on the phone a number of times(but not in writing) that I will not be renewing the lease and I hope to move into the house myself. Yesterday the tenant told me they will not move out on 06/02/2015. What can I do? Do I need to give them written notice? what are there rights? my rights ? Thank You

harry999

On thing which maybe I could do is increase the rent by 400 per month - this may force them to move out...

antoinolachtnai

You need to give them notice in writing for starters.

When the notice period is up, they may still not move out. You will then have to go to PRTB and go through their eviction process.

How will increasing the rent achieve anything that giving them notice would not equally achieve?

You can only increase rents in line with market rents.

johnnyskeleton

harry999 wrote: »

On thing which maybe I could do is increase the rent by 400 per month - this may force them to move out...

Like rackrenting?

thierry14

harry999 wrote: »

On thing which maybe I could do is increase the rent by 400 per month - this may force them to move out...

With that kind of attitude.

I hope your tenants don't move out, don't pay you rent and take you to the cleaners when you make a wrong move.

All the power is with the tenants, best of luck

drumswan

Another cowboy, yeehaw

Mrs OBumble

harry999 wrote: »

On thing which maybe I could do is increase the rent by 400 per month - this may force them to move out...

Or they may just stop paying altogether, safe in the knowledge it it will be a couple of years before the PRTB process gets them evicted.

Seriously OP, go and find out about your responsibilities. Ask a solicitor, or read here: http://irishlandlord.com/

Grandpa Hassan

drumswan wrote: »

Another cowboy, yeehaw

How is the LL a cowboy? Seems like the tenant is the nightmare. The LL wants to move back (a valid termination reason under part IV) in but the tenant refuses to leave. Unfortunately all the power lies with tenants and there is FA that a LL can do other than go down a lengthy PRTB process, which can't be enforced without another lengthy court process anyway.m

It's the tenant that's the cowboy

gaius c

harry999 wrote: »

Hi The tenant in the house I rent is not good(noise etc) & the lease is up on 06/02/2015. I have told them on the phone a number of times(but not in writing) that I will not be renewing the lease and I hope to move into the house myself. Yesterday the tenant told me they will not move out on 06/02/2015. What can I do? Do I need to give them written notice? what are there rights? my rights ? Thank You

Is this genuine? If you're lying to try and get them out, there could be serious repercussions.

Michael D Not Higgins

1. How long have they been living there?
2. Look up the notice period for the length of time they've been living there.

Length of tenancy - Notice by landlord

Less than 6 months - 4 weeks (28 days)
6 months to 1 year - 5 weeks (35 days)
1 – 2 years - 6 weeks (42 days)
2 – 3 years - 8 weeks (56 days)
3 – 4 years - 12 weeks (84 days)
4 years or more - 16 weeks (112 days)

3. Give them written notice with the reason attached (you want to move in). The notice period starts from receipt of the written notice.
4. If they refuse to leave, open a dispute with the PRTB.

harry999

Thanks for replies - if I have to open a case with PTRB to get them out how long is that likely to take before they are out? I fear that they will stop paying rent during this period and will could be short 6 mths rent.

gctest50

harry999 wrote: »

Thanks for replies - if I have to open a case with PTRB to get them out how long is that likely to take before they are out? I fear that they will stop paying rent during this period and will could be short 6 mths rent.

could be way more than that

- the "idea" might be to drag it out as much as possible, then you sell , then they are still stuck there , then you have to pay to get rid of them

have a look here :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057355896

athtrasna

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

1. How long have they been living there?
2. Look up the notice period for the length of time they've been living there.

Length of tenancy - Notice by landlord

Less than 6 months - 4 weeks (28 days)
6 months to 1 year - 5 weeks (35 days)
1 – 2 years - 6 weeks (42 days)
2 – 3 years - 8 weeks (56 days)
3 – 4 years - 12 weeks (84 days)
4 years or more - 16 weeks (112 days)

3. Give them written notice with the reason attached (you want to move in). The notice period starts from receipt of the written notice.
4. If they refuse to leave, open a dispute with the PRTB.

Those are part 4 notice periods, the op has a fixed term lease with a finish date. Those notice periods do not apply!

drumswan

athtrasna wrote: »

Those are part 4 notice periods, the op has a fixed term lease with a finish date. Those notice periods do not apply!

The tenant will have part 4 rights when the fixed term ends. Around and around we go.

athtrasna

drumswan wrote: »

The tenant will have part 4 rights when the fixed term ends. Around and around we go.

They have to claim those a month before the lease ends

Grolschevik

athtrasna wrote: »

They have to claim those a month before the lease ends

Maybe they did so in the communication that indicated they weren't going to be out on 6 Feb? The OP didn't clarify the terms of their refusal, did he?

EDIT: shouldn't that be something like four months rather than one month?

hfallada

OP you can only increase the rent inline with market rents. Which is such a BS term, considering you might look at all the houses in a postcode in Dublin. They can be the same sq footage, no of rooms. But are totally different prices.

If you are not renewing their lease and actually moving into the apartment, its reasonable to get them to move out. But if they lodge a complaint with the PRTB and they find out you have put it on daft.ie immediately after they moved out. You will get fined.

My parents are LLs and I can understand your frustration. Rental laws here only protect the tenant. A non-paying tenant is evicted in some US states days after they are in arrears. The local sheriff will help them pack for. However in Ireland, you have to wait for the super slow PRTB to hear the case. The PRTB is needed. But it shouldnt take several months to actually discuss a case.

OP make sure they are registered with the PRTB. File a late PRTB form if you have to.

Michael D Not Higgins

athtrasna wrote: »

Those are part 4 notice periods, the op has a fixed term lease with a finish date. Those notice periods do not apply!

Part 4 rights and notice periods still apply, unless the lease gives more favourable terms. The lease is up at the start of next month and they are not getting another lease so assuming they're there longer than 6 months there will be overlap between when the lease runs out and when the notice period ends where they're in occupation (still legally at this point) under Part 4.

The tenants are already gearing up to be difficult so it's worth following the process to the letter. It covers them for the upcoming PRTB battle.

Michael D Not Higgins

athtrasna wrote: »

They have to claim those a month before the lease ends

They are automatic. If they haven't notified the landlord a month before then they are only liable for loss due to reletting costs (which should be nil since the OP claims they intend to move in). As long as they're there 6 months, they're on Part 4 regardless.

Edit: the RTA 2004 says "loss or damage in consequence of that failure (notify landlord of Part 4)", however doesn't describe the extent. If the OP is prevented moving in, could they apply to the PRTB for the rent they have spent as a loss while attempting to remove the tenants?

harry999

Has anydoby actually gone to PTRB to get a tenant out & how long did this process take ? Was there much involved ? Thanks

The Spider

You're well within your rights to get them out if you want it for yourself:

How easily your landlord can end your tenancy depends on the type of tenancy you have and how long you have been in the accommodation.

Your landlord must always give you notice when asking you to leave - see Notice periods and Notice of termination below.

Tenancies run in 4-year cycles. During the first 6 months of a tenancy, the landlord can ask you to leave without giving a reason but must serve a valid written notice of termination, allowing a minimum 28-day notice period.

For a tenancy that has lasted between 6 months and 4 years – known as a Part 4 tenancy – the landlord can end it only in the following circumstances:

After 3 years and 6 months
If you do not comply with the obligations of the tenancy
If the property is no longer suited to your needs (for example, if it is overcrowded)
If the landlord intends to sell the property within 3 months
or for the following specific purposes:

If the landlord needs the property for him/herself or for an immediate family member
If the landlord intends to refurbish the property substantially
If the landlord plans to change the business use of the property (for example, convert it to office use)

gaius c

The Spider wrote: »

You're well within your rights to get them out if you want it for yourself

IF

I already asked him if this reason was genuine or bogus because from the OP, it appears that the real reason he wants them out is "noise, etc".

Using a bogus reason will only get him into trouble with the PRTB.

the_syco

harry999 wrote: »

Hi The tenant in the house I rent is not good(noise etc) & the lease is up on 06/02/2015.

If you have gotten complaints from neighbours, get them to report it to the Gardai, and get legal advice about evicting someone over anti-social behaviour.

TBH, if the tenant wants to play hardball, play hardball.

Beaner1

The tenant holds all the cards here and your bull headed attitude is liable to cost you. Swallow your pride and use a bit of diplomacy and maybe a cash incentive.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Beaner1 wrote: »

The tenant holds all the cards here and your bull headed attitude is liable to cost you. Swallow your pride and use a bit of diplomacy and maybe a cash incentive.

So the tenant refuses to leave and according to you it is the OP who is "bull headed". :rolleyes:

hawkelady

Beaner1 wrote: »

The tenant holds all the cards here and your bull headed attitude is liable to cost you. Swallow your pride and use a bit of diplomacy and maybe a cash incentive.

Ha , are you still in school ??? "Cash incentive ",,, have you been watching re runs of the sopranos over the holidays ?? Get a grip

Grandpa Hassan

hawkelady wrote: »

Ha , are you still in school ??? "Cash incentive ",,, have you been watching re runs of the sopranos over the holidays ?? Get a grip

Beaner is right though. If the OPs approach causes the tenant to dig their heels in, it could be two years before they are gone. Incentivizing them to move might be the best thing to do

Road-Hog

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Beaner is right though. If the OPs approach causes the tenant to dig their heels in, it could be two years before they are gone. Incentivizing them to move might be the best thing to do

Would concur with the above. The last thing you want is a PRTB hearing. Try every sort of incentative that you can stomach. If you want them out kill them with kindness despite how much it might gall you, given them back deposit in full, offer to assist them in finding a new place, offer them help to move their stuf etc etc. A lengthy drawn out PRTB case/hearing could cost you a years rent say €12000 based on a rent of €1000/month, tenant can stay put and pay you fcuk all while you wait for case to be heard then there could be legal fees of say €1500 to €2k...........you will be at a loss of €15k before you know it.....€15k would go a long way to sorting out any damage /mess they have left behind.

I'm basing the above on an experience I had with a house my sister in law had where she had tenants from hell.....all was fine for first 6 months then it deteriorated badly....rent stopped, complaints from neighbours via residents assoc about anti social behaviour etc

Road-Hog

hawkelady wrote: »

Ha , are you still in school ??? "Cash incentive ",,, have you been watching re runs of the sopranos over the holidays ?? Get a grip

Heavy handed approach will usually just led to tenant digging heels in

dissed doc

If the lease is up on an already agreed date, you simply write a letter confirming the end of the tenancy on x date and that within the RTA law the tenancy will not be renewed. The reason is for you to know, they are not your judge on your morality.

If they have claimed Part 4 rights between 3 and 1 months before the end date, then you will then need to give the required PArt 4 notice period, but also, that at that time the tenancy ends (e.g., if it ins 56 days later).

Your personal business as to your reason is not for the tenant to know or care. What matters is, intention to not renew the lease, and that as agreed on the original contract, the tenancy is ended on 6th February. No threats, no nothing, it is not an eviction notice, so there is no PTRB nonsense. . Just simply as is. Registered post.

As it stands, the tenant signed a contract agreeing to an end date of 6th February. You send a letter confirming this end date, and that a further tenancy contract is not available from that date.

They will have had to explicitly claim Part 4 rights, if they want them, and if they have, simply then send the normal notice in accordance with Part 4 notice periods. If they have not exactly within the law and timeframe claimed Part 4 rights, then they will become squatters.

Can squatters complain to PTRB?

UNder no circumstances get into any discussion about your intentions with the property, the tenant is not the law, the judge, your mother, or the PTRB.

If it ends up in PTRB, and costs you money, just grow your ballsack and sue them for every lost cent until the day you die. If you are e.g., 40 years old, then you have a good 40 years to get that money back, once PTRB eventually find in your favour.

Aka Ishur

dissed doc wrote: »

If the lease is up on an already agreed date, you simply write a letter confirming the end of the tenancy on x date and that within the RTA law the tenancy will not be renewed. The reason is for you to know, they are not your judge on your morality.

If they have claimed Part 4 rights between 3 and 1 months before the end date, then you will then need to give the required PArt 4 notice period, but also, that at that time the tenancy ends (e.g., if it ins 56 days later).

Your personal business as to your reason is not for the tenant to know or care. What matters is, intention to not renew the lease, and that as agreed on the original contract, the tenancy is ended on 6th February. No threats, no nothing, it is not an eviction notice, so there is no PTRB nonsense. . Just simply as is. Registered post.

As it stands, the tenant signed a contract agreeing to an end date of 6th February. You send a letter confirming this end date, and that a further tenancy contract is not available from that date.

They will have had to explicitly claim Part 4 rights, if they want them, and if they have, simply then send the normal notice in accordance with Part 4 notice periods.

UNder no circumstances get into any discussion about your intentions with the property, the tenant is not the law, the judge, your mother, or the PTRB.

If it ends up in PTRB, and costs you money, just grow your ballsack and sue them for every lost cent until the day you die.

Dissed can you stop giving wrong advice. You do not have to claim Part 4. Every tenant gets Part 4 the moment the are in the place for 6 months. Once that happens the landlord must have a valid reason to terminate the lease. A landlord cannot just say, "nope, no reason but you gotta go"

For a tenancy that has lasted between 6 months and 4 years – known as a Part 4 tenancy – the landlord can end it only in the following circumstances:

After 3 years and 6 months
If you do not comply with the obligations of the tenancy
If the property is no longer suited to your needs (for example, if it is overcrowded)
If the landlord intends to sell the property within 3 months
or for the following specific purposes:

If the landlord needs the property for him/herself or for an immediate family member
If the landlord intends to refurbish the property substantially
If the landlord plans to change the business use of the property (for example, convert it to office use)

A landlord leaves themselves open to severe penalties if any of these reasons are used fraudulently.

seamus

OK, so facts first. The tenant has not notified the landlord in writing of their intention to stay on in the property within the required time. This does not mean they do not have Part 4 rights, however it does mean they are liable for any financial losses the landlord incurs due to the tenant's failure to vacate. So, if, for example, the landlord is paying rent elsewhere for somewhere to live, the tenant may become liable for that cost.

As a landlord you are entitled to terminate the tenancy if you wish to use the property yourself.

Details of exactly what the notice of termination must include and the notice periods required are here:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html

Note especially that the notice period starts the day after you serve notice, i.e. the day you serve notice is not part of the notice period.

A fixed term lease doesn't mean that the tenancy comes to an end at the end of the lease, all it does is prevent either party from backing out during the fixed term period.

Bateman

Aka Ishur wrote: »

If the landlord intends to sell the property within 3 months
or for the following specific purposes:

If the landlord needs the property for him/herself or for an immediate family member
If the landlord intends to refurbish the property substantially
If the landlord plans to change the business use of the property (for example, convert it to office use)[/B]

A landlord leaves themselves open to severe penalties if any of these reasons are used fraudulently.

Ah come on. In theory or practice?

The_Morrigan

Bateman wrote: »

Ah come on. In theory or practice?

Both.

Grolschevik

seamus wrote: »

The tenant has not notified the landlord in writing of their intention to stay on in the property within the required time.

Unless I've missed a clarification, I'm not sure that we can say this is true.

Edit: just checked. There's no detail at all on what grounds, whether it be Part 4 notice periods or not, as to why the tenant might be refusing to vacate by the date in the OP. They could still merely be insisting on valid notice. The timeframe is unclear.

ElizKenny

A friend of mine was in the same situation.
The way he handled it when the tenant decided that they didnt want to leave was to look at the rents around the place and give the tenant notice that the rent was going up to €50 above what other similar property was going for in the area. The tenant had been there 2 years without an increase in the rent.
The tenant argued and threatened the PRTB but moved out about 2 months later, to a cheaper place.

The tenant found a cheaper place. My friend got to move into his apartment himself.

harry999

The lease is up on Feb 6th, I have told the tenants many times when speaking to them & also gave it to them in writting that lease will not be renewed. As the lease is not really being terminated/as ends on the 6th.. Do I need to give the tenants a formal letter (if you would you have an example of such a letter) that leae not renewed. Am I legally entitled to get tenant out on Feb 6th or what notice should I give/when should I expect them out ? The tenant have stopped paying rent since 24th of Dec 2014. Please outline what steps I need to take. Thanks

harry999

The tenants have been in the house since Feb 7th 2014.

drumswan

harry999 wrote: »

The lease is up on Feb 6th, I have told the tenants many times when speaking to them & also gave it to them in writting that lease will not be renewed. As the lease is not really being terminated/as ends on the 6th.. Do I need to give the tenants a formal letter (if you would you have an example of such a letter) that leae not renewed. Am I legally entitled to get tenant out on Feb 6th or what notice should I give/when should I expect them out ? The tenant have stopped paying rent since 24th of Dec 2014. Please outline what steps I need to take. Thanks

Do they pay rent weekly?

harry999

Yes they pay rent weekly

drumswan

harry999 wrote: »

Yes they pay rent weekly

Then follow the process for eviction for non payment of rent.

You'll need to go and research what is required for running your business and not rely on people on an internet forum to do it for you.

runawaybishop

drumswan wrote: »

Then follow the process for eviction for non payment of rent.

You'll need to go and research what is required for running your business and not rely on people on an internet forum to do it for you.

These forums would be fierce quiet if everyone did that :pac:

delthedriver

OP have you looked at the following sites ?

www.citizensinformation.ie

www.prtb.ie

www.irishlandlord.com

It is also worth consulting your solicitor.

Be very careful , I know of a case where landlord was stitched up by a tenant, PRTB appeal hearing. The award was c €10k !

Utmost caution, PRTB can favour the tenant ???!!!

delthedriver

runawaybishop wrote: »

These forums would be fierce quiet if everyone did that :pac:

Agree, the reason for such a thread is to exchange ideas !

Arbiter of Good Taste

drumswan wrote: »

Then follow the process for eviction for non payment of rent.

You'll need to go and research what is required for running your business and not rely on people on an internet forum to do it for you.

Why do you bother posting then if it causes you such bother?

GerardKeating

athtrasna wrote: »

Those are part 4 notice periods, the op has a fixed term lease with a finish date. Those notice periods do not apply!

Part IV notice periods tend to be longer, even if the tenant is not entitled to Part IV, giving the "extra" notice is "safer".

Taylor365

delthedriver wrote: »

OP have you looked at the following sites ?

www.citizensinformation.ie

www.prtb.ie

www.irishlandlord.com

It is also worth consulting your solicitor.

Be very careful , I know of a case where landlord was stitched up by a tenant, PRTB appeal hearing. The award was c €10k !

Utmost caution, PRTB can favour the tenant ???!!!

So the PRTB find in favour of tenants that don't pay rent?

Wouldn't surprise me tbh...

Aka Ishur

GerardKeating wrote: »

Part IV notice periods tend to be longer, even if the tenant is not entitled to Part IV, giving the "extra" notice is "safer".

Seriously? The amount of uninformed nonsense here is frightening.

The tenant is ALWAYS entitled to PART IV notice periods unless they, the tenant has decided to sign another lease!

It is only the tenant who decides whether they wish to stay on after the end of the lease and whether that be on a fixed term or PART IV basis. Any decent landlord will ascertain the tenant's intentions at least a month before the end of the lease.

If landlord wants the tenant out at the end of the lease, it can only be due to the reasons specified in my previous post in this thread and of course Part 4 notice periods apply.