Self build Mortgage Question

Robert Allen

Hi, I’m just looking for a little help regarding a self build. If anyone could offer any advice or assistance it would be greatly appreciated.

• We have planning permission.
• We commenced in February of last year (Cleared the topsoil, did the driveway etc before the new rules came into effect)
• We have been approved for a mortgage.

The issue we have is that our Architect, though a practicing Architect for many years, is not registered and therefore he is unable to sign off on a mortgage and the mortgage installments. We have paid him to complete the house plans and to apply for the planning permission however he never told us that he would not be able to sign off on the mortgage.

As an alternative he explained that he can go through another Architect down the country and to do this it will cost €2500 plus the payment we would have given our Architect to look after the build.

I was wondering if there is anybody who is more informed than I who could shed some light on this? Would this be normal?

Basically our bank will only accept the signature of a certified assessor. Though we officially started before the new regulations were in pace the bank have said that it was always their policy. At this stage we are thinking that we should just change Architects and employ one who is actually certified. Would this be a good idea or would it be difficult to get an Architect who would be interested in this?

As mentioned, if anyone could help me out in terms of where to go from here it would be very much appreciated.

Strolling Bones

This is where all reading need to pay attention.

You will not be "caught" by any agent of the state be it Local Authority or similar for breaching regulations.
You will be caught by the money lenders. When you go to sell. Or re mortgage . Or build.

OP - my opinion only
- if you are lucky enough to find a certifier who will qoute you a price that you can stomach ( think twenty grand and rising )
- they will not entertain a self build
- they will insist you will have to hire a registered builder
- they will not acceapt that you have truly "started"

At least I do not think so anyway.

DOCARCH

Hi Robert

Sounds like you are in a bit of a pickle!

Robert Allen wrote: »

• We commenced in February of last year (Cleared the topsoil, did the driveway etc before the new rules came into effect).

First off, another architect may disagree that you have actually (validly) commenced the works...sounds to me like you have not validly commenced the works.

You may be better off trashing it out with your current 'architect' (who incidentally cannot call themselves an architect if not registered) and investigating further the route s/he has outlined.

Otherwise, as well as getting a new architect, you will probably also face having to get a Design and Assigned Certifier, submit a new Commencement Notice and carry out the works to 'new regs'.

kildarejohn

DOCARCH wrote: »

...sounds to me like you have not validly commenced the works. ...

you will probably also face having to get a Design and Assigned Certifier, submit a new Commencement Notice and carry out the works to 'new regs'.

Why does Docarch feel the OP has not "validly commenced"?
I understand "commencement" means doing any work covered by Building Regs, and clearing topsoil is clearly covered by Building Regs Part C "Site Preparation"

mickman

this is cowboy antics but it will be cheaper for you to stay with this bloke and go via the architect "down the country"

Strolling Bones

mickman wrote: »

it will be cheaper for you to stay with this bloke and go via the architect "down the country"

no choice if the OP says

our bank will only accept the signature of a certified assessor

DOCARCH

kildarejohn wrote: »

I understand "commencement" means doing any work covered by Building Regs, and clearing topsoil is clearly covered by Building Regs Part C "Site Preparation"

True...but very tenuous to be honest.

db

It sounds to me the the OP's bank is asking for an engineer or architect who is a member of a professional body and has the professional insurance in place to sign off on the valuations for the stage payments. This would have been the normal course of events before the new regulations came in last year. In my case my drawings were done by an Arch Tech and I engaged an engineer to sign off the stage payments and certify the work.

stano

Yes, I think you would be better off staying with the architect you have and going with the architect down the country option". Perhaps approach an architect that you do know or know is reputable and explain the situation, get their take on it and see if they would be in a position to help and how much would they charge.

Just wondering re. builders etc as I have permission and hoping to start building in about 6 months time or so. We have to sort mortgage with bank which should be ok. Should we get builders quotes before going to the bank? What are the implications of the new builders regs for us? Can we still go direct labour eg. blocklayer, local plasterer etc. Getting some very unhelpful info from people saying that we will have to go through the builder for everything eg. blocklaying, plumbing, electrics, and that we can't do this separate as per new regs. We will be meeting with the architect in the next week or so but wanted to gather info myself in the meantime. If we get the ball rolling soon what would the timeframe be for getting site signed over in my name, sorting mortgage, getting quotes etc. We are thinking 3-4 months with a view to starting building in the summer. Is that realistic? Any tips/ ideas very welcome please.

BryanF

stano wrote: »

Yes, I think you would be better off staying with the architect you have and going with the architect down the country option". Perhaps approach an architect that you do know or know is reputable and explain the situation, get their take on it and see if they would be in a position to help and how much would they charge.

Just wondering re. builders etc as I have permission and hoping to start building in about 6 months time or so. We have to sort mortgage with bank which should be ok. Should we get builders quotes before going to the bank? What are the implications of the new builders regs for us? Can we still go direct labour eg. blocklayer, local plasterer etc. Getting some very unhelpful info from people saying that we will have to go through the builder for everything eg. blocklaying, plumbing, electrics, and that we can't do this separate as per new regs. We will be meeting with the architect in the next week or so but wanted to gather info myself in the meantime. If we get the ball rolling soon what would the timeframe be for getting site signed over in my name, sorting mortgage, getting quotes etc. We are thinking 3-4 months with a view to starting building in the summer. Is that realistic? Any tips/ ideas very welcome please.

Those 'unhelpful' people are upto date on the new building control act. Your architect would be mad to take on the liability of direct labour. http://www.bregsforum.com

Strolling Bones

stano wrote: »

Getting some very unhelpful info from people saying that we will have to go through the builder for everything eg. blocklaying, plumbing, electrics, and that we can't do this separate as per new regs.

accurate - not un helpful

Strolling Bones

db wrote: »

It sounds to me the the OP's bank is asking for an engineer or architect who is a member of a professional body and has the professional insurance in place to sign off on the valuations for the stage payments.

If this is so then the OP should go with "the down the country" architect provided that this person will sign under the old regs. Otherwise the situation is very difficult.

kildarejohn

Strolling Bones wrote: »

If this is so then the OP should go with "the down the country" architect provided that this person will sign under the old regs. Otherwise the situation is very difficult.

I agree that going with "down the country" guy is the best option, and cost of €2500 seem reasonable.
However I don't see that if this guy does not agree to sign under old regs it will be "very difficult".
There should be no difficulty with complying with Regs, or satisfying Council, the only prob is cost. What can happen is -
(1) Council and Arch agree original notice OK - No problem!
(2) Council and/or Arch won't agree original notice OK; implication is you issue a new commencement notice; again there is no legal problem, its just like starting a new project under new Regs., with consequent higher cost
I presume the Building Society would be happy with either situation, provided the Architect signs off.

Superdaddy

Sounds to me like you just need and engineer or architect to sign off on staged payments. Should be simple enough to source one of those. Your commencement notice is valid unless you are told otherwise.
I knowingly went down the same route as you and have an arch technician who is not able to sign off on stage payments to get me through planning and do drawings as required. Sounds to me like you hired a arch technician unknowingly. But perhaps he was allowed to sign off at the time of planning but the banks have followed suit with the new regs and they don't accept him as a certifier anymore.
I have an Engineer to sign off for the banks, but he'll only sign off if the building meets regs and he will want to be sure of that because its on his insurance.
My commencement was done the same as yours, foundation wasn't completed till November due to a delay with mortgage company, it is considered compliant by planning. But i had my engineer on the commencement notice. You may or may not need to inform planning if you are changing from the certifier you stated on the commencement notice. I would doubt that such a change would mean that you must resubmit your commencement notice.
I'd talk to a few engineers and architects before I'd do anything else if I were you.

Strolling Bones

kildarejohn wrote: »

(2) Council and/or Arch won't agree original notice OK; implication is you issue a new commencement notice; again there is no legal problem, its just like starting a new project under new Regs., with consequent higher cost.

much higher cost

kildarejohn

Superdaddy wrote: »

My commencement was done the same as yours, foundation wasn't completed till November due to a delay with mortgage company, it is considered compliant by planning.

Did you actually get specific confirmation from the Council that they were happy with you issuing commencement notice in Feb and not doing foundations till Nov - or is it just that they haven't noticed? (feel free to answer by PM if you don't want to go public on this)

mickman

At least two banks accept sign off by arch tech for stage payments

Superdaddy

kildarejohn wrote: »

Did you actually get specific confirmation from the Council that they were happy with you issuing commencement notice in Feb and not doing foundations till Nov - or is it just that they haven't noticed? (feel free to answer by PM if you don't want to go public on this)

You can check on line to see if your commencement notice is valid.
I was told they did inspected 100% of notices. And 40% failed and were notified of the failure. Not sure how true that is.
My pre foundation works were considerable. 300m of road and dug out 2m from back of bank to get level for the foundation. Laid the stone and compacted it for the passive raft, then ran out of money. Had to wait months for mortgage. Mortgage company is a bloody nightmare to deal with.

kildarejohn

Superdaddy wrote: »

I was told they did inspected 100% of notices. And 40% failed and were notified of the failure. Not sure how true that is.
My pre foundation works were considerable. 300m of road and dug out 2m from back of bank to get level for the foundation. Laid the stone and compacted it for the passive raft, then ran out of money. .

Interesting. Referring back to the OP's query, it seems he just cleared topsoil. You cleared 2m of topsoil/subsoil. But there is nothing whatever in the legislation to say that clearing 2m of subsoil is commencement but clearing 300mm of topsoil is not. So in principle, if you were accepted as OK, the OP should be OK too - that's assuming all Councils are working on the same basis.

Robert Allen

Hi Guys, thanks for getting back to me so quickly.

The commencement notice seems to be ok. We have not completed anything other than the driveway and site clearance. Our "Architect" rang us a few weeks before the new regs were Due to be implemented, up to that point we didn't know anything about them. As a result our savings took a hit which put us back a few months before we could go looking for a mortgage, hence the delay.

Our Architect said he was on a waiting list to get registered and told us that one bank would not accept his signature but the rest would be fine. We were approved with one of these other banks who won't accept the signature, hence the problem.

Mickman, if you could let me know the banks that allow an Arch tech to sign off I'd appreciate it?

Looks like the easiest option is to stay with this guy and to pay the certified assessor (whom ive never meet and probably will never meet) €2500 for a signature. He just seems to have conveniently forgotten to tell us a number of things which are important, and there were a few other issues which have left a bit of a bad taste also. Makes it difficult for me to put our trust in him for the build.

Glad to know I'm not the only one who is confused by this and who also finds it a right pain in the backside!

Either way thanks again lads for the advice, it's greatly appreciated and has offered some clarity on the problem.

mickman

Robert Allen wrote: »

Hi, I’m just looking for a little help regarding a self build. If anyone could offer any advice or assistance it would be greatly appreciated.

• We have planning permission.
• We commenced in February of last year (Cleared the topsoil, did the driveway etc before the new rules came into effect)
• We have been approved for a mortgage.

The issue we have is that our Architect, though a practicing Architect for many years, is not registered and therefore he is unable to sign off on a mortgage and the mortgage installments. We have paid him to complete the house plans and to apply for the planning permission however he never told us that he would not be able to sign off on the mortgage.

As an alternative he explained that he can go through another Architect down the country and to do this it will cost €2500 plus the payment we would have given our Architect to look after the build.

I was wondering if there is anybody who is more informed than I who could shed some light on this? Would this be normal?

Basically our bank will only accept the signature of a certified assessor. Though we officially started before the new regulations were in pace the bank have said that it was always their policy. At this stage we are thinking that we should just change Architects and employ one who is actually certified. Would this be a good idea or would it be difficult to get an Architect who would be interested in this?

As mentioned, if anyone could help me out in terms of where to go from here it would be very much appreciated.

Your bank sounds like BOI

How did you get approval for the mortgage ? Was this just in principle because when you submit an application for a self build then a costings template needs to be filled in and if the person signing this doc isn't sutiable then the bank would have stopped the process at that stage ...

Robert Allen

Mickman,

As regards the mortgage we were approved in principle, we then came back with all the other info which was ready to go and yes, it was the costings form on which they would not accept the signature. Apologies for the confusion.

Originally the costings form and as a result, stage payments/draw down on the mortgage.

Strolling Bones

Put the blame where it lies. Another Hogan mess.

mickman

Strolling Bones wrote: »

Put the blame where it lies. Another Hogan mess.

The blame is with the architect that didn't inform them that he wasn't ab assigned certifier , then again maybe he wasn't awarw they were even applying for a mortgage

BryanF

mickman wrote: »

The blame is with the architect that didn't inform them that he wasn't ab assigned certifier , then again maybe he wasn't awarw they were even applying for a mortgage

But s/he was appointed before all this rubbish was introduced?

mickman

BryanF wrote: »

But s/he was appointed before all this rubbish was introduced?

hmm ok fair point. this is a tricky one then. Go with the lad down the country

Strolling Bones

Robert Allen wrote: »

Our "Architect" rang us....

He just seems to have conveniently forgotten to tell us a number of things which are important, and there were a few other issues which have left a bit of a bad taste also.

Makes it difficult for me to put our trust in him for the build.

Your trust will be tested over and over during the build. It is always stressful. So consider a fresh start rather than somone you fell has let you down.

redross81

Sorry for jumping in on this thread but I have an unrelated query with regard to a self build mortgage that someone here may be able to help me with please. We have full planning permission, signed contracts with the builders, received Approval In Principle from our mortgage provider and supplied all the required documentation to the bank, copies of contracts outlining the house specifications and cost, the builders homebond certificate etc., as well as a detailed costing certificate completed by our engineer. We have supplied our bank details from where the repayments are to be made and also completed the mortgage rate application form.
Now the bank are saying that the quote we received is too cheap and they are unwilling to approve the mortgage. They are basing the square foot cost on Dublin guidelines and we are building in County Cork. It is my understanding that they think that the build will be sub-standard. The builder that we are using has been in business for 65 years and is extremely reputable and he would not jeopardise his reputation by not building to regulation and our engineer would not allow it in the first place.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

BryanF

redross81 wrote: »

Sorry for jumping in on this thread but I have an unrelated query with regard to a self build mortgage that someone here may be able to help me with please. We have full planning permission, signed contracts with the builders, received Approval In Principle from our mortgage provider and supplied all the required documentation to the bank, copies of contracts outlining the house specifications and cost, the builders homebond certificate etc., as well as a detailed costing certificate completed by our engineer. We have supplied our bank details from where the repayments are to be made and also completed the mortgage rate application form.
Now the bank are saying that the quote we received is too cheap and they are unwilling to approve the mortgage. They are basing the square foot cost on Dublin guidelines and we are building in County Cork. It is my understanding that they think that the build will be sub-standard. The builder that we are using has been in business for 65 years and is extremely reputable and he would not jeopardise his reputation by not building to regulation and our engineer would not allow it in the first place.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I'd suggest you bring a local QS to meet the bank official and from there have the Qs give an opinion on the cost. Ask the bank would they except this as a compromise/solution

redross81

Thanks very much BryanF for your response. That was suggested to us yesterday evening so we are meeting with the bank today to suggest this to them in order to see if they will accept it.

sydthebeat

redross81 wrote: »

Sorry for jumping in on this thread but I have an unrelated query with regard to a self build mortgage that someone here may be able to help me with please. We have full planning permission, signed contracts with the builders, received Approval In Principle from our mortgage provider and supplied all the required documentation to the bank, copies of contracts outlining the house specifications and cost, the builders homebond certificate etc., as well as a detailed costing certificate completed by our engineer. We have supplied our bank details from where the repayments are to be made and also completed the mortgage rate application form.
Now the bank are saying that the quote we received is too cheap and they are unwilling to approve the mortgage. They are basing the square foot cost on Dublin guidelines and we are building in County Cork. It is my understanding that they think that the build will be sub-standard. The builder that we are using has been in business for 65 years and is extremely reputable and he would not jeopardise his reputation by not building to regulation and our engineer would not allow it in the first place.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

banks are well within their rights to expect certain construction tender levels, and if quotes are coming in under those, alarm bells will ring that maybe not everything is being accounted for.
There was a common practice during the boom of clients going back to mortgage companies looking for extra money to "finish off" the particulars of the permission that wasnt taken into account ie landscaping, site works etc. This doesnt happen any more as credit is expensive.

what you need to do is either get a full detailed breakdown of every material (such as a bill of quantities) and argue that everything is covered (VAT inclusive) by your mortgage amount plus whatever finances you have yourselves (including all provisional fees, connection fess, development charges etc)

even if you do this you may still be at the mercy of the mortgage company insisting you be cleared for their 'per sq ft' levels (i think it may be €85 / sqft currently? for you sq ft size)

the only thing is of course, that you do not need to draw down the full amount if you are actually able to do it for cheaper.

remember the days of just 'signing off the house construction' are over... now every single aspect of planning conditions need to be finished before a cert of completion is signed and you are allowed to move in.

redross81

Thank you sydthebeat. We have been told that average sqft for County Cork approximately €80 / €85 depending on location. Our build is coming in a little under this because my father is a painter / decorator and we will be doing that ourselves, a neighbour is a landscaper and will be doing that for us foc and a few other small things but the builders finish including underfloor heating throughout, all carpentry including a kitchen but besides fitting floors, bath ware, footpaths all around, etc. is included in our cost, VAT inclusive.
Thank you for your suggestion of getting a full detailed breakdown of every material.

Strolling Bones

This goes back to the point I made back at the start of the thread. It is the money lenders who by actions like these are acting as de facto building standards enforcers.

BryanF

redross81 wrote: »

Thank you sydthebeat. We have been told that average sqft for County Cork approximately €80 / €85 depending on location. Our build is coming in a little under this because my father is a painter / decorator and we will be doing that ourselves, a neighbour is a landscaper and will be doing that for us foc and a few other small things but the builders finish including underfloor heating throughout, all carpentry including a kitchen but besides fitting floors, bath ware, footpaths all around, etc. is included in our cost, VAT inclusive.
Thank you for your suggestion of getting a full detailed breakdown of every material.

That's your problem. Who told you that m2 cost?
The last few jobs I've Seen have been in excess of 130€ sqft
You need to price everything for a complete 'resellable' building regulation/planning compliant home - see this from the banks perspective

redross81

BryanF, that m2 value was confirmed to me this morning by a person who I have known for many years and who works in the same bank, albeit a different branch, as the one where we have received our AIP and who also works in the same department, mortgages and lending.

sydthebeat

the minimum i have heard recently is also €85 per sq ft.

bansk wont accept tenders under that price...... unless you can show where the savings are being made.

BryanF

redross81 wrote: »

BryanF, that m2 value was confirmed to me this morning by a person who I have known for many years and who works in the same bank, albeit a different branch, as the one where we have received our AIP and who also works in the same department, mortgages and lending.

the people holding the purse strings decide what a house is worth without understanding the cost of building. That persons costings sound like self-build rates. As of March last year You can no longer self-build

sydthebeat

BryanF wrote: »

the people holding the purse strings decide what a house is worth without understanding the cost of building. That persons costings sound like self-build rates. As of March last year You can no longer self-build

to be fair, he has said that he is using an established experienced builder... and he has outlined the parts of the build which wouldnt be under this contract.

technically its not a "self build" as they are using a contractor.

redross81

It is my understanding that we will have to prove to the bank that the costings are accurate and where we are making the savings, most likely at an additional cost of hiring a QS. However, my fear is is that the bank will not be satisfied with this and we will have wasted money that can be better spent elsewhere.
BryanF, as stdthebeat says above, we are using the 1 contractor for the build, we are not going direct labour which is no longer allowed.

sydthebeat

redross81 wrote: »

It is my understanding that we will have to prove to the bank that the costings are accurate and where we are making the savings, most likely at an additional cost of hiring a QS. However, my fear is is that the bank will not be satisfied with this and we will have wasted money that can be better spent elsewhere.
BryanF, as stdthebeat says above, we are using the 1 contractor for the build, we are not going direct labour which is no longer allowed.

you wont be wasting time on a QS, the money you spend will be earning multiple times over.

he can assess the builders quote, find discrepencies and omissions, and haggle for extras.

redross81

sydthebeat wrote: »

you wont be wasting time on a QS, the money you spend will be earning multiple times over.

he can assess the builders quote, find discrepencies and omissions, and haggle for extras.

Thanks sydthebeat, I didn't look at it that way. All I can see at the moment is the negative unfortunately...

mickman

sydthebeat wrote: »

the minimum i have heard recently is also €85 per sq ft.

bansk wont accept tenders under that price...... unless you can show where the savings are being made.

this is key

keep the original tender but include a document with the application showing the reduction in cost due to the items you mentioned .

Strolling Bones

Banks will watching to see that people dont "half build". In other words you and I might be happy to contract the builder to build the "raw" house only lets say. And move into it "raw".

Then leave decorations and finishes , driveway , landscaping on the long finger / as you can afford it later.

Banks want a quick sale if they re posses. They want a sale ready item and want to see you build that.

redross81

Strolling Bones wrote: »

Banks will watching to see that people dont "half build". In other words you and I might be happy to contract the builder to build the "raw" house only lets say. And move into it "raw".

Then leave decorations and finishes , driveway , landscaping on the long finger / as you can afford it later.

Banks want a quick sale if they re posses. They want a sale ready item and want to see you build that.

We have budgeted for the majority of the house to be finalised, including painting and landscaping but these are not included in the contractor's costs as we are in a position to do these ourselves. There will be 1 / 2 rooms not furnished but with regard to finishes, it will be more than livable.

Strolling Bones

This is the level of detail the banks are seeking now. What will be foremost in their minds will be - if you fail to pay the mortgage and they re possess what will they have to sell then?

galwaytt

redross81 wrote: »

BryanF, that m2 value was confirmed to me this morning by a person who I have known for many years and who works in the same bank, albeit a different branch, as the one where we have received our AIP and who also works in the same department, mortgages and lending.

I find that low figure very hard to believe under current regs.

I also don't believe that banks have the slightest idea of anything to do with building, rates included.

I've dealt with AIB and BoI and found both completely ignorant of building in this day and age.

Msrob

We have done the same regarding commencement notice and cleared the site. We did however have to get a letter from the county council stating that we were under old regs as we found some engineers wudn touch anything regarding the new regs. We are at the moment in the process of applying for self build mortgage and have done a detailed pricing for bank and have got the engineer to sign off will be interesting to see what the banks say because we have come in on price about €50k under over all recommended price of the €85 per sq ft. The other half can do icf walls, roof, stairs, all carpentry work indoors and family plumber fingers crossed the banks don't laugh us outta there, mortgage broker seems confident tho...

adam88

This fiqure of €85-100 sq/ft. What does it include or to make it a bit easier what does it not include?

Is engineers/architects costs includes?? Does it include basic landscaping etc??

Msrob

Builders finish no engineer/landscape extra