Education Advice

ftse100

I have a computer science undergrad degree with first class honours however I want to move into investments (currently in IT in an investment company) should I go do an MSc or do the CFA exams while I continue to work in my current job. The MSc in finance is 14k in TCD and only full time so I'd be under a lot of financial stress. I wonder would doing the CFAs benefit me more? Thanks in advance guys

ixus

It's not worth 14k. Is that for non-EU?

DCU have/had a highly regarded part time MSc.

CFA is a better fit for somone with a finance/accounting background imho. Less to get up to speed with.

The important thing is to know exactly the type of position you're looking for. You may not need to do either. "Investment" is such a broad term.

ftse100

It's 13,400 for EU paying applicants. 2k more for non eu.
The only finance background I have is what I've learned from my current job. If love to get into portfolio construction or fund management. I was going to the the MSc to bridge the gap between my undergrad in computer science and that of finance. But I wonder if I just stayed in my current role and dos the CFA's myself would I be better off then maybe do a part time MSc down the line for additional learning. Or maybe do CFA level one then the full time MSc and hopefully be more financially stable then. It's a tough call for me

ixus wrote: »

It's not worth 14k. Is that for non-EU?

DCU have/had a highly regarded part time MSc.

CFA is a better fit for somone with a finance/accounting background imho. Less to get up to speed with.

The important thing is to know exactly the type of position you're looking for. You may not need to do either. "Investment" is such a broad term.

ixus

http://www.dcu.ie/prospective/deginfo.php?classname=MITB&originating_school=50

Msc in Investment & Treasury sounds like it suits your needs better.

Next class starts in Sep. Why noy get cracking on CFA level 1 now?

I'd rate the DCU much higher than Trinity. And, financially it's a no brainer. I know people who have done the courses in Trinity, DCU, UCD, UL & Maynooth. They're all broadly similar with small specialisatiins like Risk in Maynooth and Energy in UL. Cost and part time at DCU makes it the best choice.

The CFA is a cross between accounting and an MSc in finance. There are no exemptions for CFA though I believe TCD has made it look like this in the past. All the courses are geared to enable you to tackle CFA.

To sum up. Stary CFA now, enroll in MSc in DCU and pursue a change in jobs that you desire now rather than waiting 2-5 years.

ftse100

Thanks for that. Appreciate it. I did my undergrad in DCU therefore I wanted to mix my cv up a little and do my MSc in TCD. What's the cost of the 2 years in DCU. I'd love to get going on the CFA level one now but I wouldn't attempt it until December and that might interfere with the MSc... Possibly not though.

Why would you rate DCU over TCD with regards to their MSc and the one in DCU

Thanks for all your help so far

.......


I'd rate the DCU much higher than Trinity. And, financially it's a no brainer. I know people who have done the courses in Trinity, DCU, UCD, UL & Maynooth. They're all broadly similar with small specialisatiins like Risk in Maynooth and Energy in UL. Cost and part time at DCU makes it the best choice.

The CFA is a cross between accounting and an MSc in finance. There are no exemptions for CFA though I believe TCD has made it look like this in the past. All the courses are geared to enable you to tackle CFA.

To sum up. Stary CFA now, enroll in MSc in DCU and pursue a change in jobs that you desire now rather than waiting 2-5 years.[/quote]

ixus

RE cost of DCU programme. It's a bit lazy of you to ask me the cost. I'd have to do the same research as you. If you can't evaluate the cost benefit of all I've mentioned, maybe the roles you describe aren't for you.

The DCU part time is the original Masters of Finance in the country if memory recalls. They then the the full time one next. The benefit of the part time one is potential contacts you can make. You will meet people in Finance looking to move up the ladder. They may have an in for you. It also demonstrates to an employer your work ethic. The one person I know that did the course some 10 years ago has been head of fixed income sales across 3 different major companies in the last ten years.

I can think of 3 people who did the DCU full time. Two of them are traders in Goldman & SIG. The other runs his own company.

I know and have worked with least 5 people who did the course in Trinity. All extremely bright and in good roles too. Two are still traders and two are still in the finance industry. They all had reservations about their access to the top brass in the course.

As I said, they're all similar. Why pay the extra for the Trinity name? You can still work (which is what you have stated you want to do) and a strong course at the same time.

Case Study for you. Work out the cost of going to Trinity full time. Cost of course + expenses + loss of earnings. Now, work out the cost of DCU part time. Is the difference worth a bit of variety on your CV. Would you make it back if you went to Trinity over DCU?

You could be applying to finance roles half way through your part time course.

CFA. You have 9 clear months to get through that work. As long as exams don't cross over, I don't see the problem if you're driven enough.

Disclosure. I quit my job working in finance to go back and do an MSc in UL full time some 6-8 years ago. It suited me better on my cost benefit. Excellent course. Can't remember the cost. 8/9k back then maybe. If you don't live at home, you may be entitled to some form of grant. Not sure how it works these days. Plenty of research for you to do.

ftse100

It's not me being lazy. I just thought that you may know off hand. Your advice is the best I have gotten so far, I must say you know your stuff. I think I was focusing too much on having a mixed CV and automatically ruled out DCU. I just don't understand why TCD charge so much.

Anyways, part time sounds like a better option. The Trinity name is hardly that much more beneficial in comparison to that of DCU.

SBWife

Each level of the CFA is designed to be completed in 16 weeks leaving 4-6 weeks for revision. When I sat it the exams were only offered in June and I never got started until January. So there is no reason to wait until next December. There is little prior knowledge assumed, and if you are looking for something that will travel it's the best choice.

Gandalph

Will you be looking at staying at your company and trying the transition? Will they sign you off for CFAs in an IT role?
I wouldn't advise attempting an MSc and CFA at the same time, while its not impossible it would be social suicide, especially for someone with no academic background in the subjects and you have to sit the CFA exams in sequence each year so there would be no real break from it. Although with saying that the MSc in Finance in DCU has been changed this year to be near 100% CA so there would not be as much stress placed on you around exam time if you did attempt both.

SBWife

Gandalph wrote: »

Will you be looking at staying at your company and trying the transition? Will they sign you off for CFAs in an IT role?
I wouldn't advise attempting an MSc and CFA at the same time, while its not impossible it would be social suicide, especially for someone with no academic background in the subjects and you have to sit the CFA exams in sequence each year so there would be no real break from it. Although with saying that the MSc in Finance in DCU has been changed this year to be near 100% CA so there would not be as much stress placed on you around exam time if you did attempt both.

The main issue you might have with the CFA route is that your experience is unlikely to qualify for the 48 months experience you need to actually become a charterholder, so you may end up with the exams and without the experience. But that's essentially where you'd be at the end of an MSc anyway but with a significantly less healthy bank balance.

While it's not recommended to take a year out during the process you do not have to take all 3 of the exams in consecutive sessions, so if you needed a break for personal reasons you could take it.

ftse100

SBWife wrote: »

The main issue you might have with the CFA route is that your experience is unlikely to qualify for the 48 months experience you need to actually become a charterholder, so you may end up with the exams and without the experience. But that's essentially where you'd be at the end of an MSc anyway but with a significantly less healthy bank balance.

While it's not recommended to take a year out during the process you do not have to take all 3 of the exams in consecutive sessions, so if you needed a break for personal reasons you could take it.

Say I didn't go down the MSc Route, Did the 3 CFA exams while in my current IT role and passed them all consecutively. Would they not allow me become a chart holder while currently working as a Business Analyst in an Investments Company? Would I have to go build up experience in the asset management side of the company and then they'd allow me become a chart holder?

SBWife

The requirements are:

At least four years (48 months) of experience in:

Evaluating or applying financial, economic, and/or statistical data as part of the investment decision-making process involving securities or similar investments (e.g., publicly traded and privately placed stocks, bonds, and mortgages and their derivatives; commodity-based derivatives and mutual funds; and other investment assets, such as real estate and commodities, if these are held as part of a diversified, securities-oriented investment portfolio).
Supervising, directly or indirectly, persons who practice these activities.
Teaching such activities.
For each position submitted, at least 50% of your time should be spent directly involved in the investment decision-making process or producing a work product that informs or adds value to that process. Work must be full time and can be earned before, during, or after participation in the CFA Program. Managing your own investments or the investments of your family or your friends (without compensation) does not qualify.

When I was getting my CFA charter I was working as an equity analyst so it was pretty straightforward, but I don't see your current position as fulfilling the requirements. However, my guess is that by the time you passed Level 2 you'd most likely have moved into a more relevant roll.

ftse100

SBWife wrote: »

The requirements are:



When I was getting my CFA charter I was working as an equity analyst so it was pretty straightforward, but I don't see your current position as fulfilling the requirements. However, my guess is that by the time you passed Level 2 you'd most likely have moved into a more relevant roll.

Do you mind me asking what your job as an equity analyst entailed? Like, day to day. Is it an exciting job?

Molly

ftse100 wrote: »

Say I didn't go down the MSc Route, Did the 3 CFA exams while in my current IT role and passed them all consecutively. Would they not allow me become a chart holder while currently working as a Business Analyst in an Investments Company? Would I have to go build up experience in the asset management side of the company and then they'd allow me become a chart holder?

They shouldn't, but it depends how you word your application and you might get partial credit for some of your years experience

Also, if you're not sure what an equity analyst does, I would say you haven't really looked into what the designation is for.

ftse100

Molly wrote: »

They shouldn't, but it depends how you word your application and you might get partial credit for some of your years experience

Also, if you're not sure what an equity analyst does, I would say you haven't really looked into what the designation is for.

Molly, I know what an Equity Analyst Does. I would just like to know what SBWife did on a daily basis and how they found it. That's all!

SBWife

I wouldn't necessarily call it an exciting job but there are significant aspects of it that are high profile and involve interacting with top levels of company management and on the sell side top fund managers here and abroad. It is however gruelling work with very long hours.

On the sell side:

A typical day starts at 7am when you need to be in on time for the RNS feed which is when any company news that might be expected to impact share prices is released by the stock exchange, between 7am and 7.45am you interpret any news on companies and prepare to brief the institutional sales team, updating estimates and models if necessary to get a first look at any financial implications. The daily meeting runs from 7.45am to a little after 8am, then hop back to your desk and write up summaries of your news and opinion for the daily newsletter which gets sent to clients by 9am. At this point try and get a break for coffee and some breakfast. The remainder of the day is normally spent on longer term projects, working on long form research notes, calling clients, calling companies to discuss any news releases, organising visits to companies for yourself and clients, answering questions from the sales desk. Until late afternoon the day is normally quite disturbed so it can be difficult to make progress on things that take high amounts of concentration, rebuilding financial models and developing investment theses for reports etc. are often better left until the markets close and activity slows down. Normally you'd work on these between 4pm and 6.30 or 7.00. Finally check once again for news on any of the companies you cover (and their competitors) and try and get a head start on the morning. Hopefully get out the door by 7.30pm.

Busyness1

Do both, I'm currently doing my M.Sc in Computational Finance, truth is there's less CFA charters than PHD in finance globally. You'd have your work cut out trying to get through the three levels on your own!

doc11

Busyness1 wrote: »

Do both, I'm currently doing my M.Sc in Computational Finance, truth is there's less CFA charters than PHD in finance globally. You'd have your work cut out trying to get through the three levels on your own!

Don't most CFA's get tuition too and 90% use revision books rather then the actual CFA handbooks sent out. You'd never get through all three of them without some academic background in the theory or CFA tuition

SBWife

I didn't use a tuition provider - I knew I wouldn't be able to make most of the classes. I primarily used the CFA texts supplementing with professional study notes.

Molly

Used the CFA text for every level, after reading those completely, then read Schweser notes. Didn't go to any classes except at level 3 where I signed up for an online recap class, which was horrendous so i stopped after about 3 hours of it.

doc11

SBWife wrote: »

I didn't use a tuition provider - I knew I wouldn't be able to make most of the classes. I primarily used the CFA texts supplementing with professional study notes.

Do you mean Schweser notes? because the cfa texts appear very bloated in comparison. The vast majority mainly use Schweser notes as there primary/only reference.

Did you have an finance/economics based third level education? Because I can imagine without any finance background they'd be very tough

SouthBank

doc11 wrote: »

Don't most CFA's get tuition too and 90% use revision books rather then the actual CFA handbooks sent out. You'd never get through all three of them without some academic background in the theory or CFA tuition

I sort of agree with this. Although I don't believe it's absolutely necessary to have an academic background in a related field, it definitely helps to have a basic understanding of accounting and economics before you start.

Most concepts in the CFA program aren't actually that difficult to grasp (in my opinion). I think it's the sheer volume of material you need to know (inside-out) for the exam that makes it difficult.

Also, the revision books are overrated. I have seen questions come up in the exam that weren't even mentioned in the revision books. I only used revision books for level 1 and a bit of level 2. Didn't use them at all for level 3.

ftse100

ixus wrote: »

http://www.dcu.ie/prospective/deginfo.php?classname=MITB&originating_school=50

Msc in Investment & Treasury sounds like it suits your needs better.

Next class starts in Sep. Why noy get cracking on CFA level 1 now?

I'd rate the DCU much higher than Trinity. And, financially it's a no brainer. I know people who have done the courses in Trinity, DCU, UCD, UL & Maynooth. They're all broadly similar with small specialisatiins like Risk in Maynooth and Energy in UL. Cost and part time at DCU makes it the best choice.

The CFA is a cross between accounting and an MSc in finance. There are no exemptions for CFA though I believe TCD has made it look like this in the past. All the courses are geared to enable you to tackle CFA.

To sum up. Stary CFA now, enroll in MSc in DCU and pursue a change in jobs that you desire now rather than waiting 2-5 years.

I've made my decision and i'm heading for DCU part time
As you said, it really is a no-brainer. DCU MSc is a lot more focused on my career stream also.

pog it

I'd be apprehensive about studying in DCU. Would be worth your while looking at options across Europe.

ftse100

pog it wrote: »

I'd be apprehensive about studying in DCU. Would be worth your while looking at options across Europe.

Why do you say that?

Busyness1

doc11 wrote: »

Don't most CFA's get tuition too and 90% use revision books rather then the actual CFA handbooks sent out. You'd never get through all three of them without some academic background in the theory or CFA tuition

I don't know anyone who got tuition for the charter... the course is so big particularly at level 1 you'd be paying a fortune on tuition. Afaik the majority use the literature provided from the institute and may use the schweser notes as a revision tool.

doc11

Busyness1 wrote: »

I don't know anyone who got tuition for the charter... the course is so big particularly at level 1 you'd be paying a fortune on tuition. Afaik the majority use the literature provided from the institute and may use the schweser notes as a revision tool.

I saw an online poll were only 10% use the CFA texts alone and 90% use the schweser notes either by themselves or with the CFA handbooks. The CFA schweser revision notes are in a different league to the CFA texts, to imply that the majority just pay the CFA fees and only use the given material is misleading.