draught problems

padre78

hi, i was hoping that some of you maybe able to help. Our house is a bungalow with a converted attic. while our house s on a very open site there seems to be a big problem with a breeze in the hall and into the sitting room. i have had an engineer look at it and his explanation was the sitting room was too air tight. so i put in a 4" vent but to no avail. the problem is also in the hall area but seems to manifest itself around the fireplace in the SR. I recently had the attic foam sprayed with a vent card so i don't think the wind is getting in from there bt it must be coming somehere. could it be the stairs?

anybody any ideas on what the problem is and any possible remedies. I am thinking of fitting a stove into the open fireplace but i still have a feeling that the breeze in the hall will remain.

any comments are welcome.

Cheers

P

North West

Padre 78
Hi you can buy smoke pellets in packs of 10. They are harmless. Try letting one off in different places around the hall, this will help you identify where the breeze is coming from. It will take a bit of investigating but they work about €6 a pack. You will be able to trace where the breeze is coming for.

Before you let them off close up the open fireplace first, the fireplace could be sucking in air from around the house.
NW

MicktheMan

padre78 wrote: »

hi, i was hoping that some of you maybe able to help. Our house is a bungalow with a converted attic. while our house s on a very open site there seems to be a big problem with a breeze in the hall and into the sitting room. i have had an engineer look at it and his explanation was the sitting room was too air tight. so i put in a 4" vent but to no avail. the problem is also in the hall area but seems to manifest itself around the fireplace in the SR. I recently had the attic foam sprayed with a vent card so i don't think the wind is getting in from there bt it must be coming somehere. could it be the stairs?

anybody any ideas on what the problem is and any possible remedies. I am thinking of fitting a stove into the open fireplace but i still have a feeling that the breeze in the hall will remain.

any comments are welcome.


Cheers

P

Tbh, you would be better off having an air tight test done to determine what is happening wrt air leakage sooner rather than later as you could spend a long time trying to unsuccessfully figure out the air leakage paths.

Man of Aran

North West wrote: »

Padre 78
Hi you can buy smoke pellets in packs of 10. They are harmless. Try letting one off in different places around the hall, this will help you identify where the breeze is coming from. It will take a bit of investigating but they work about €6 a pack.


NW

Thanks NW this is useful for many of us. Where can they be bought? Send me a PM if you prefer not to name here.

North West

Hi man of Aran
Just google smoke pellets, they are readily available
NW

antiskeptic

padre78 wrote: »

hi, i was hoping that some of you maybe able to help. Our house is a bungalow with a converted attic. while our house s on a very open site there seems to be a big problem with a breeze in the hall and into the sitting room. i have had an engineer look at it and his explanation was the sitting room was too air tight. so i put in a 4" vent but to no avail. the problem is also in the hall area but seems to manifest itself around the fireplace in the SR. I recently had the attic foam sprayed with a vent card so i don't think the wind is getting in from there bt it must be coming somehere. could it be the stairs?

anybody any ideas on what the problem is and any possible remedies. I am thinking of fitting a stove into the open fireplace but i still have a feeling that the breeze in the hall will remain.

any comments are welcome.

Cheers

P

I'm wondering whether the very open site means you a very strong draw on the fireplace which, at the best of times are the equivalent of a large hoover on your chimney sucking the warm air out. Perhaps try blocking it up temporarily and see does that change things. A soft child's football, an inch or two larger in diameter than the flue diameter makes an excellent plug (avoid chimney balloons installed in the flue which are fiddly to work and worse, get sucked up your chimney)

If it is the flue, then consider just leaving the ball in there when the flue is not in use. If desired for when the fire is in use, provide a large, closeable vent or two in the outside wall of the house (if two, then one on either side of the chimney breast). This will enable the flue to draw air from outside straight into the fire via the path of least resistance - rather than pulling cold air in elsewhere and dragging it past your ankles on it's way to the fire. Working area of the vent when open to be the same area as the flue diameter.

padre78

Thanks for getting back to me on this. All posts raised a few options.

Thanks NW for the Smoke pellet info, i never knew this existed and i might just purchase a pack or two for the start.

Mick, i was thinking of doing an air tightness test alright, i was supposed to get one done a couple of years ago but then the missus went in into labor early and that was the end of that. Any site i looked at about the test says that they will remedy the leakage as well. do you know if this is true or what level of remedying is done?

antiskeptic, i think you might be on to something as well. Our house is not elevated or anything but it is well exposed especially to the south west. The difference between tonight and last night is something else. I must try the trick with the football during a windy day and see how it goes.

Would you think that putting a stove in instead of the open fireplace would help solve this or reduce the problem?

cam1452

Had the same problem. I put in a stove never had a problem since

antiskeptic

padre78 wrote: »

Would you think that putting a stove in instead of the open fireplace would help solve this or reduce the problem?

It would help it on days the stove isn't lighting since the damper can be shut and the flue effectively closed off. On days when you light the stove I'm imagine much less problem since you don't throughput anything like the same amount of air in a stove vs. fire.

The ball option is the cheapo solution.

padre78

Would a fire door solve the solution the same way as a stove? there is no back boiler in the fireplace if this matters.

slimjimmc

padre78 wrote: »

Would a fire door solve the solution the same way as a stove? there is no back boiler in the fireplace if this matters.

I'd consider fitting a stove/insert with it's own external air supply. The room will effectively be sealed from the chimney so no more up-draught and it helps keeps the heat in. You should still install a wall vent for normal room ventilation and CO safety.

893bet

What would be the point of a room sealed stove with external air supply and then a hole in the wall vent?

MicktheMan

padre78 wrote: »

Mick, i was thinking of doing an air tightness test alright, i was supposed to get one done a couple of years ago but then the missus went in into labor early and that was the end of that. Any site i looked at about the test says that they will remedy the leakage as well. do you know if this is true or what level of remedying is done?

Depends really on the actual result / cause and what materials are used to remedy. If the air tight test result is poor then I doubt very much that applying sealants such as silicone, draught strips will be a long term solution as these leakage sites will open up again soon enough.

What guarantee can these companies give and for how long?

padre78

cam1452 wrote: »

Had the same problem. I put in a stove never had a problem since

If you don't mind me asking what kind of a stove did you install?looking for a bit of a steer in the right direction. i think it might be the way to go in the long term.

cam1452

I got the stanly Oisin €399 and €200 for fitting. Its in a 13x14 foot room plenty of heat with it.
Iv got an olmberry aidan in another room for heating the water and 9 rads but only have six turned on.
Light it at around 4 clock and burn sticks only and get two showers the six rads will be hot nd the room the stove is in will be be very hot 22x22 foot
€1090 for this stove

padre78

Just to give an update, i went with the ball to block the flue for now and it is working a treat. tested it yesterday and again this evening and while its breezy enough outside, there is no breeze as before blowing through the living room. Thanks for the suggestion!!!

Even though this is working i cant see it as a long term solution so i'm off to look through the stove threads to educate myself.

antiskeptic

padre78 wrote: »

Just to give an update, i went with the ball to block the flue for now and it is working a treat. tested it yesterday and again this evening and while its breezy enough outside, there is no breeze as before blowing through the living room. Thanks for the suggestion!!!

Even though this is working i cant see it as a long term solution so i'm off to look through the stove threads to educate myself.

Glad to see that solved the immediate problem.

You're off to have a look at a stove? That's because, presumably, you like to light a fire and don't fancy the draught that will ensue once the fire gets going and starts sucking air into the house through every nook and cranny.

As with the ball, the solution is simple: install ventilation near the fireplace so that the fire sucks air from outside rather than through other areas of the house (which tends to produce a cold house and a warm place in front of the fire). Close the vents and insert the ball when not using the fire.

It's a a whole heap cheaper to install a vent that buy and install a stove.

It might be that you light the fire so often that there are fuel savings and convenience savings to be had with a stove in which case, it's a good option (though there is little to beat a good fire)

padre78

antiskeptic wrote: »

Glad to see that solved the immediate problem.

You're off to have a look at a stove? That's because, presumably, you like to light a fire and don't fancy the draught that will ensue once the fire gets going and starts sucking air into the house through every nook and cranny.

As with the ball, the solution is simple: install ventilation near the fireplace so that the fire sucks air from outside rather than through other areas of the house (which tends to produce a cold house and a warm place in front of the fire). Close the vents and insert the ball when not using the fire.

It's a a whole heap cheaper to install a vent that buy and install a stove.

It might be that you light the fire so often that there are fuel savings and convenience savings to be had with a stove in which case, it's a good option (though there is little to beat a good fire)

The last thing I want to do is get rid of the open fire. There's nothing as nice as an open fire and a stove can never compete, but the draught is just too much and gets annoying when its blowing especially when kids are playing on the floor.

I already have a vent in this room. I put it in a few months ago in an effort to solve the problem. Its a four inch vent about 1.5m form the chimney breast. It lessened the draught slightly, but so slightly it was barely recognisable. To me the ball solution was the best advice I've got in a while but it is short term. I hate to get rid of the open fire but it seems the best option.

893bet

Stove is 3 times as efficient as an open fire. No brainer.

antiskeptic

893bet wrote: »

Stove is 3 times as efficient as an open fire. No brainer.

I'd agree with that if the fire is set as most set fires: blazing away and dumping it's energy up the chimney (dragging volumes of air in to supply it all the while). A well set fire would aim to get the coals glowing red, be capped with slack so as to get the heat radiating into the room, and not have flame shooting up the chimney.

Then there's the effect of a fire - which is arguably 3 times better than a stove.

If stove your prime heating then economics would be a major factor. If not, then perhaps economy irrelevant.

antiskeptic

padre78 wrote: »

The last thing I want to do is get rid of the open fire. There's nothing as nice as an open fire and a stove can never compete, but the draught is just too much and gets annoying when its blowing especially when kids are playing on the floor.

I already have a vent in this room. I put it in a few months ago in an effort to solve the problem. Its a four inch vent about 1.5m form the chimney breast. It lessened the draught slightly, but so slightly it was barely recognisable. To me the ball solution was the best advice I've got in a while but it is short term. I hate to get rid of the open fire but it seems the best option.

The ball is a long term solution unless you're lighting the fire very regularly, in which case it's too inconvenient to be putting it in and hauling it out.

You'd need more ventilation than you've got. The flue has a cross sectional area of approx 50 square inches. You'd need something similar to balance the draw demanded by the fire. If you've got suspended wooden flooring you can install vents in the floor either side of the breast or in a long strip right in front of the fire. The path of least resistance will ensure the draught required pulled from right next to the fire.

Try the following for lighting a low pull / efficient fire

- 3 or 4 firelighters placed middle and to the front of the grate and lit
- after lighters have taken, bucket of coal laid on top thickening the layer as you move from front to back
- 2 good shovels of slack laid across the rear half of the coal and around the sides towards the front. Pat well down. You've effectively got just a small section of exposed coal to in the middle front
- leave well alone - other than adding some slack perhaps once more to maintain the closed cap (don't pat hard late on as the coals will collapse, breaking the cap)

The fire will light to the front and will progressively light the coals to rear and side off as the fire progresses. These latter won't be able to flame much since the route above is capped off - but will instead glow red, emitting their heat out the front (as the front burns away to expose them) instead of turning to flame and shooting up the chimney. For much of the life off the fire, you'll be able to hold your hand over the cap and feel no heat rising, whereas you'd burn it if holding it to the front of the fire.

In the latter stages things open up and you start getting heat up the chimney but for the most part, you've maxed efficiency and keep draughts down

A decent bucket of coal (I'm assuming smokey type but it works for smokeless) will last 5-6 hours

-

On another note: you need to sort your draught problems anyway. It should be that the house/room is so draught proofed that the fire refuses to light - rather than pulling draughts in from everywhere. You're losing heat even even without a fireplace - the fireplace is simply accentuating it. You can do a lot with some well fitted draughtproofing (I find Exitex's rubber strip-set-in-aluminium-profile good for wooden doors). You might consider fitting it to the door to the room with the fireplace so as to force the draught to be pulled through the vent (allthough if vent too small, the fire, will likely just refuse to light properly, if at all)

Pj60

How did the draught proofing go.i also have the same problem. Attic is foam sealed. 200mm of roll out knauf insulation across the attic. All vents in windows closed. Chimney blocked up but still a really cold breeze blowing in the sitting room door.considering putting in a new palladio door and non boiler stove in sitting room.all advice appreciated