Non-paying council tenants

handlemaster

Council tenants who do not pay should be removed from an obligation by the state to house them in the future.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/dublin-city-council-sent-660-notices-to-quit-but-just-one-tenant-evicted-1.2051522

Wabbit Ears

Id imagine that paying rent to the council from dole money doesn't make any sense to these folk ( Doesn't make sense to me) and, since there is little chance of ever actually being evicted, why would they pay?

handlemaster

Because its practically free. Some havent paid for a year or more. It should be enforced . No pay no home. Then you have the bleading Heart half truth stories after.

The_Conductor

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

Id imagine that paying rent to the council from dole money doesn't make any sense to these folk ( Doesn't make sense to me) and, since there is little chance of ever actually being evicted, why would they pay?

They've only really started the eviction processes- following pressure from politicians who view it as grossly unfair on tenant who do actually pay their rent. My understanding is there are between 4000 and 5000 court actions planned for Dublin City Council- alone- in the new year. A dribble of earlier cases have meandered their way through the system and a handful of evictions (literally only 2 or 3) have happened (yet).

It would be prudent for tenants to get to grips with this asap- the spotlight is being focused on them- and legitimate tenants, who pay rent- are going to start baying for blood.........

I also think that an obligation to house tenants who refuse to pay even minimum rent- should be removed from the state- if people are this mollycoddled that they won't pay even minimum amounts- action needs to be taken.

Ray Palmer

The thing is it is very difficult for any tenant to be evicted and it take along time. This action may make the government actually realise the problem. Lots of people actually think that LLs are favoured by the laws but they really aren't. A tenant can simply stop paying rent and it can take over a year to get them out and you will be very unlikely to get any payment.

The problem with non-paying council tenants is what do you do with them? There was one a few years ago who was basically a shut in hoarder who didn't pay any rent. When they went to remove him people went crazy saying he needed help not eviction.

You can be pretty sure that some of these non paying tenants are addicts, mentally ill, career criminals etc... mixed in with plain chancers. Once you kick them out you will have other problems. You don't need to be a bleeding heart liberal to realise that the solution is not just to kick them out on to the street.

Hibernosaur

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The thing is it is very difficult for any tenant to be evicted and it take along time. This action may make the government actually realise the problem. Lots of people actually think that LLs are favoured by the laws but they really aren't. A tenant can simply stop paying rent and it can take over a year to get them out and you will be very unlikely to get any payment.

The problem with non-paying council tenants is what do you do with them? There was one a few years ago who was basically a shut in hoarder who didn't pay any rent. When they went to remove him people went crazy saying he needed help not eviction.

You can be pretty sure that some of these non paying tenants are addicts, mentally ill, career criminals etc... mixed in with plain chancers. Once you kick them out you will have other problems. You don't need to be a bleeding heart liberal to realise that the solution is not just to kick them out on to the street.

If you don't pay your rent and you are able bodied then you should be made to wear a high vis and clean the roads in your estate.

This is win/win/win. More non payers will pay, The estates will be cleaner because of those that don't pay, Some people will get a taste of social responsibility that might teach them the value of work and taking pride in ones surroundings.

Gatling

Sorry with 90,000 + waiting to be housed I'll gladly support the evictions ,
Plenty of families more than willing and able to pay the nominally small rents compared to the open markets ,

the world wonders

Hibernosaur wrote: »

If you don't pay your rent and you are able bodied then you should be made to wear a high vis and clean the roads in your estate.

If they won't pay the rent what makes you think they'll turn up for community service?

The actual solution is for the council to be able to deduct at source from welfare payments and save the hassle of evicting (and rehousing) thousands of people...

Hibernosaur

the world wonders wrote: »

If they won't pay the rent what makes you think they'll turn up for community service?

An eviction notice.

the world wonders

Hibernosaur wrote: »

An eviction notice.

If they paid attention to eviction notices then they'd be paying their rent, wouldn't they?

Hibernosaur

the world wonders wrote: »

If they paid attention to eviction notices then they'd be paying their rent, wouldn't they?

No, with respect, they don't get eviction notices. They get warnings, but the eviction never comes. Usually because they have kids and the council cannot make a child homeless without going through the courts, which is more expensive than letting them live there for free.

A Dublin City councillor told me recently that he had two families living side by side that owed about 20 grand each in rent arrears, and that there is nothing the council can do about it without making children homeless, which they will not do.

the world wonders

Hibernosaur wrote: »

A Dublin City councillor told me recently that he had two families living side by side that owed about 20 grand each in rent arrears, and that there is nothing the council can do about it without making children homeless, which they will not do.

So how does your high-vis vest proposal solve this problem? What are you going to do when the da goes down the bookies instead of turning up for his community service?

Gatling

Social housing should be taken off the local authorities who arent capable of enforcement of non payment of rents ,
20+000 in rent arrears i dont think so return the keys please

Hibernosaur

the world wonders wrote: »

So how does your high-vis vest proposal solve this problem? What are you going to do when the da goes down the bookies instead of turning up for his community services?

Well in Hibernotopia he would have his dole cut for a no show. And any children of his would get direct provision so they would not be affected by this.

Kristopherus

Its easy enough to deduct rent from Welfare payments. It was done for the property tax, with no delay or pussyfooting.

The_Conductor

Kristopherus wrote: »

Its easy enough to deduct rent from Welfare payments. It was done for the property tax, with no delay or pussyfooting.

After it was handed over to Revenue.......
The varioius councils and local Authorities do not have the authority to purloin wages and/or social welfare disbursements- that Revenue have.

While we're at it- hand water rate collection, broadcasting charges- and the other annoyances- over to Revenue too. They're about the only authority who have the means to collect.........

As it stands- the whole system is rigged to protect people who don't necessarily deserve protection- meanwhile many of those who do need genuine help- are ending up out on the streets........

Hibernosaur

The_Conductor wrote: »

As it stands- the whole system is rigged to protect people who don't necessarily deserve protection- meanwhile many of those who do need genuine help- are ending up out on the streets........

Agreed,

My neighour is regularly partying all night after bringing a load of scummers back to his house after the pub closes. We have to sleep with earplugs on those nights and a fan on which creates white noise to block out the sound of the bass.

My wife and I are up at 5:30 in the morning and off to work to help pay his dole and rent.

He is on invalidity pension but regularly plays gigs for money and runs up and down stairs without a bother carrying heavy amps. Yes I have complained to the council and reported him to the social. No nothing was done. No I don't feel ashamed.

The law is on his side.

Ray Palmer

Kristopherus wrote: »

Its easy enough to deduct rent from Welfare payments. It was done for the property tax, with no delay or pussyfooting.

It was not east nor cheap and required new law. If they are going to go to that cost and effort they might as well solve the whole area of non payment of rent to include private LL too.

There are other methods coming available to government agencies soon enough that might serve the purpose.

What is kind of funny is that people here often completely disregard the situation when it is private LLs. One of the reasons why rent is high here is you have to cover yourself for non-payment. To be vaguely safe you really need a buffer of a years rent. If you get stung you then also try to regain the loss by maximizing your rent.

evillive

there are changes put into legislation but none introduced yet as far as i know = coming slowly but will make tenant sign up to a direct debit from SW that cant be changed - legislation is not very reader friendly

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2014/en/act/pub/0021/sec0053.html#sec53

quite possibly the housing authority will require new tenants to sign up to deduction of rent at social welfare source - this deduction may only be changed with approval of housing supplier

it may also be put to tenants facing eviction to sign up - cant see any change to good paying tenants - tenancy/rent agreements would also have to be changed to refer to the legislation

benefits to the state - more rental income therefore less support needed from central government
no having to chase up arrears, more streamlined rents collection - less staff needed

tenants may take more ownership of their home then - will also demand more service on line with tenancy

am sure there will still be non-payers who take it down the legal route

handlemaster

This is all the reasons and more why the government policy of housing turned towards private landlords. There s no responsibility taken by local authories the tax payer keeps paying year in year out.

Mrs OBumble

The_Conductor wrote: »

... legitimate tenants, who pay rent- are going to start baying for blood.........

Possibly literally.

There was a case in Galway a few years back (before my time here) where a judge finally issued an eviction order on a council tenant. No prizes for guessing what the tenant did the day the eviction was due to happen.

As a result, it's very very hard to get judges to issue an eviction, especially for tenants for whom private rentals aren't really an option.

Rock. Hard place.

pablo128

evillive wrote: »

there are changes put into legislation but none introduced yet as far as i know = coming slowly but will make tenant sign up to a direct debit from SW that cant be changed - legislation is not very reader friendly

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2014/en/act/pub/0021/sec0053.html#sec53

quite possibly the housing authority will require new tenants to sign up to deduction of rent at social welfare source - this deduction may only be changed with approval of housing supplier

it may also be put to tenants facing eviction to sign up - cant see any change to good paying tenants - tenancy/rent agreements would also have to be changed to refer to the legislation

benefits to the state - more rental income therefore less support needed from central government
no having to chase up arrears, more streamlined rents collection - less staff needed

tenants may take more ownership of their home then - will also demand more service on line with tenancy

am sure there will still be non-payers who take it down the legal route

Not everyone in social housing is on social welfare.

hqd

Hibernosaur wrote: »

No, with respect, they don't get eviction notices. They get warnings, but the eviction never comes. Usually because they have kids and the council cannot make a child homeless without going through the courts, which is more expensive than letting them live there for free.

A Dublin City councillor told me recently that he had two families living side by side that owed about 20 grand each in rent arrears, and that there is nothing the council can do about it without making children homeless, which they will not do.

That's not actually true, All the tenants who were brought to court did get eviction notices. The problem with evictions comes down to the fact that judges refuse to make families homeless so will keep delaying the actual eviction and then once the tenant makes some sort of arrangement/ payment they will stop the eviction.

In addition Councils are not allowed to enforce that tenants go on Household Budget or Direct Debit which makes it harder to get them to pay.

The_Conductor

Aka- compel all councils and local authorities- to hand debts to Revenue- and empower Revenue to receive all monies due......

These people are abusing the system three ways to kingdom come- they know there are no repercussions from not paying their rent- so why the hell would they pay?

There has to be a stick- or else you may as well just throw in the towel. Its akin to letting the lunatics take over the asylum.......

murphaph

I think this goes beyond simple over holding. There is an underclass in Ireland that is happy to let the rest of society pick up their tab.

This has to be tackled up to and including the removal of children from this underclass if they refuse to play their part. Their kids deserve better than to be raised into this cycle.

handlemaster

murph has a good point if you are raised in this cycle of no responsibility you will be the same. Question is shoukd we all pay for this or come down hard with same rules applied to everyone I.e. you pay or you dont stay. If not who should be allowed free housing with no charges etc and who pays for this. anyone for more tax ?

The_Conductor

handlemaster wrote: »

murph has a good point if you are raised in this cycle of no responsibility you will be the same. Question is shoukd we all pay for this or come down hard with same rules applied to everyone I.e. you pay or you dont stay. If not who should be allowed free housing with no charges etc and who pays for this. anyone for more tax ?

Its not that we will be paying more tax- as we're paying for it already, as-is.
I think most of us can think of a few people who have gotten away with abusing the system- without thinking too hard....... Should someone be allowed make producing children a career option (to the extent that when they are offered training and/or work placements- they become pregnant- yet again- to get out of having to face the real world)?

I think the same rules should apply to everyone- but I do think that there are a few glaring anamolies- such as the quite stupenduous cost of childcare in Ireland (we have now overtaken the States to have the most expensive childcare in the world).

If we are investing money anywhere- put it into childcare- even if current workers don't have children- they will recognise that the children of today- will be the taxpayers of tomorrow- and will be paying their pensions.........?

Meanwhile- introduce tiered compulsion into the system- to get the long term unemployed a limited number of hours of gainful employment every week- perhaps only for a day or two- so no-one can have the excuse that its stopping them from searching for permanent employment.

As for the cadre of long term unemployed- including those who have never worked- figure out why they are in this situation? Is it a welfare trap? If so- structure welfare differently- so there is an active incentive to work- and an obvious disincentive to remaining unemployed. If this means working in McDonalds- its good honest hard work- and actually quite reasonably paid- so I don't see the issue......... If they are good workers- they will rise through the ranks.........

If training opportunities are not suited to prospects out there- then perhaps its time to see where the current and future opportunities are going to be- and tailor training towards shoehorning people into these areas (whether they like it or not).

We don't need more taxes in this country- we are being crucified with taxes- we need our limited resources to be better directed into getting people off social welfare and into gainful employment- and we need to weed leeches out- and ensure that being on benefits is not a long term career option- as some people seem to think it is.

As for an obligation to provide housing to people- I don't see anywhere in the UN charter which says it has to be in Dublin, Cork or Galway- or that direct provision of services should not apply. If we are to cut social welfare payments- temper it with distribution of food- which we have plenty of here- plenty of social welfare recipients don't get enough wholesome food- despite their social welfare payments- and would benefit from weekly fruit and veg and dairy produce- all of which we have surplus supplies of here..........

While we're at it- roll out school meals, fruit and milk- to all children- if children weren't hungry- they might do better in school and be better motivated to improve their lot.

There may be a stigma of sorts associated with making living on social welfare a career choice- but it damn well isn't sufficient to make a difference to some people- they need to be compelled to participate in society.

Mrs OBumble

The_Conductor wrote: »

I think the same rules should apply to everyone- but I do think that there are a few glaring anamolies- such as the quite stupenduous cost of childcare in Ireland (we have now overtaken the States to have the most expensive childcare in the world).

...

As for the cadre of long term unemployed- including those who have never worked- figure out why they are in this situation?

...

We don't need more taxes in this country- we are being crucified with taxes- we need our limited resources to be better directed into getting people off social welfare and into gainful employment- and we need to weed leeches out- and ensure that being on benefits is not a long term career option- as some people seem to think it is.

As for an obligation to provide housing to people- I don't see anywhere in the UN charter which says it has to be in Dublin, Cork or Galway- or that direct provision of services should not apply

...

I agree with most of what The Conductor has posted.

Everyone society has a proportion of unemployable people. Part of being a civilised society is that we provide them with a minimal / reasonable (depending on your perspective) standard of living.

One of the challenges when getting any country out of a period of some years recession is that there are extra people who fall into this group, though they were able to function independently pre-recession. Some can be recovered, some can't, and working out who is who is tough. (As I recall, I got a very hostile reaction on this forum for suggesting that someone with a guide-dog should be getting a job to remove RA-dependence - even though visual impairments are some of the easiest to provide assistive technology to work around, especially for someone who's smart though to work with a dog.)

This is worse in Ireland because PAYE workers don't pay any tax a whopping first 15k of their income: I personally know a number of people who consider it a failure to earn more than that amount (over the table), especially since the low income makes them eligible for council housing and a medical card. And the institutionalised form of council housing (clustered houses, with tenancy-for-life) means that there are entire estates where the only ambition that a kid growing up there knows is to get allocated a council house of their own.

Accommodation issues are really only a small part of tacking all these issues. Personally, I see periodic reviews of housing need - including house size with compulsory moves if the bed-space need has reduced as a key part of it.

I'm not that keen on direct provision: it doesn't work well for asylum seekers, don't think it would be that much better for nationals. Rent Allowance as it is now is watered-down direct provision - but rent-caps remove responsibility from the tenant to use their resources according to their needs (eg to choose to pay more rent and save on transport and heating costs).


Taking this back to council tenants who don't pay: just evicting them won't fly. Judges in this country are never going to put anyone out of the streets, and most council tenants who don't pay just won't get in to private rentals.

And there actually are incentives even for Council tenants to pay. If you don't have arrears, you get some optional maintenance done. Regular maintenance gets done faster and with more consideration of what suits you. You are considered for transfers if you want one. You are allowed to do (suitable) alternations if you want to. You don't get regular calls / visits from the housing officer. Etc.

Owryan

surely if people feel non paying council tenants should be evicted then it is only fair that those in council properties who are in well paid employment should also be asked to stand on their own 2 feet? I am personally aware of people earning €1000+ pw who are in council houses and only have to pay a pittance in rent.

The idea of a council house for life should be scrapped imo.

foggy_lad

Owryan wrote: »

surely if people feel non paying council tenants should be evicted then it is only fair that those in council properties who are in well paid employment should also be asked to stand on their own 2 feet? I am personally aware of people earning €1000+ pw who are in council houses and only have to pay a pittance in rent.

The idea of a council house for life should be scrapped imo.

If you earn above the normal social welfare rate you must pay 20% of your earnings over and above the rate in rent. So someone on €1000/week will pay at least €230/week in rent!

Owryan

foggy_lad wrote: »

If you earn above the normal social welfare rate you must pay 20% of your earnings over and above the rate in rent. So someone on €1000/week will pay at least €230/week in rent!

Not when maximum rent is capped and allowances for partner/kids are taken into consideration. The example i gave they pay €102 pw in rent.