Class Structure.

kneemos

Is there a class structure in the church regarding the "lower socioeconomic class" being greater sinners?

jimmymorrison2

Sin doesn't discriminate, it's the great leveller. The readings and gospels regularly warn the rich, and speak of the poor being blessed. The better off you are the more uncomfortable you'll feel.

In my locality, since its become very unfashionable, social death, and counter cultural to be seen anywhere near a mass nowadays, all the poser types, and fashion conscious now steer well clear.

Round here, long gone are the days when P. Flynn FF/FG political types and their cronies and sycophants used glide up the aisle 5 minutes after mass began to the very front and then turn to survey and ensure how many of the congregation had seen them, before giving a slow royal nod of the head before they took their seat. Now many of them wouldn't be seen dead at a mass. Literally.

kneemos

jimmymorrison2 wrote: »

Sin doesn't discriminate, it's the great leveller. The readings and gospels regularly warn the rich, and speak of the poor being blessed. The better off you are the more uncomfortable you'll feel.

In my locality, since its become very unfashionable, social death, and counter cultural to be seen anywhere near a mass nowadays, all the poser types, and fashion conscious now steer well clear.

Round here, long gone are the days when P. Flynn FF/FG political types and their cronies and sycophants used glide up the aisle 5 minutes after mass began to the very front and then turn to survey and ensure how many of the congregation had seen them, before giving a slow royal nod of the head before they took their seat. Now many of them wouldn't be seen dead at a mass. Literally.

All of that is the "upper class".
What I'm asking is the perception of the unemployed,criminals or minimum wage workers.Are they generally regarded as being more sinful than the so called pillers bof society?

jimmymorrison2

kneemos wrote: »

All of that is the "upper class".
What I'm asking is the perception of the unemployed,criminals or minimum wage workers.Are they generally regarded as being more sinful than the so called pillers bof society?

As I stated in the first two lines of my first post, we are constantly reminded they are actually less sinful overall in God's eyes, and the God specifically considers the poor blessed to him. He who is first shall be last, and he who is last shall be first.

Regarding "upper classes" I think you might be confusing English class structure with Irish class structure. In Ireland we have the connected/cronie class, the taxed/working class, and the welfare class. Only the taxed/working classes have to work for a living. But that's for another thread.

These days majority of the congregation where I go would be considered genuinely unemployed or minimum wage workers, and are struggling very hard to make ends meet and pay their bills. I can't speak for wealthy parishes, or if there is many out there.

kneemos

jimmymorrison2 wrote: »

As I stated in the first two lines of my first post, we are constantly reminded they are actually less sinful overall in God's eyes, and the God specifically considers the poor blessed to him. He who is first shall be last, and he who is last shall be first.

Regarding "upper classes" I think you might be confusing English class structure with Irish class structure. In Ireland we have the connected/cronie class, the taxed/working class, and the welfare class. Only the taxed/working classes have to work for a living. But that's for another thread.

These days majority of the congregation where I go would be considered genuinely unemployed or minimum wage workers, and are struggling very hard to make ends meet and pay their bills.

I know God doesn't discriminate and I think we all know the difference I'm talking about between lower and upper class,to say it's purely a British phenomenon is clearly discrimination in itself.

jimmymorrison2

kneemos wrote: »

I know God doesn't discriminate and I think we all know the difference I'm talking about between lower and upper class,to say it's purely a British phenomenon is clearly discrimination in itself.

The poorest people in Ireland have traditionally always been Catholic and the most Catholic. I'd say trying to import the english class system, and divide section and pigeon hole Irish people into 'upper class' as you put it, is where the real discrimination begins. Even the royalty here like Denis O'Brien would not be considered for, or admitted to, the upper classes in england, and Catholics would be categorised as a definite sub class in both england and NI.

kneemos

jimmymorrison2 wrote: »

I'd say trying to import the english class system, and divide section and pigeon hole Irish people into 'upper class' as you put it, is where the real discrimination begins. Even someone like Denis O'Brien or Charlie Haughey would not be considered for, or admitted to, the upper classes in england.

I'm not trying to import a class system,I'm asking a question of the social perceptions that may or may not exist between the well or averagely paid and the unemployed or badly paid.

If you want to derail the thread into a class argument go ahead,but it has nothing to do with the religion forum.

jimmymorrison2

kneemos wrote: »

I'm not trying to import a class system,I'm asking a question of the social perceptions that may or may not exist between the well or averagely paid and the unemployed or badly paid.

That's been well answered several times now, the wealthier you are, the more uncomfortable and more challenged you will feel during the average Sunday reading, gospel, and homily. Looks like that's not the answer you wanted to hear.

kneemos

jimmymorrison2 wrote: »

That's been well answered several times now, the wealthier you are, the more uncomfortable and more challenged you will feel during the average Sunday reading, gospel, and homily. Looks like that's not the answer you wanted to hear.

Doesn't make any sense.
How would wealth make you feel more uncomfortable?

smcgiff

Something rich man something eye of a needle something heaven.

Manach

The OP's point has a measure of truth. Being of a lower socio-economic origins myself (queue youngsters these days rambling tangent) I'd have primary source evidence of how there were cases of the more affluent members of the Church seemingly getting better treatment. As well, knowing History, I've come across instances of specialised privileges for the rich or noble classes (such as they were).

However, there is always a context. For instance the self same Church provided valuable social services to the poor ignored by the state, with minimum resources available. As well, the best of the orders had an egalitarian ethos long before this age. For instance the Jesuit's founder Loyola key hiring practice was not an applicants social origins but their ability to do God's work.

homer911

The Bible doesn't distinguish between sinners - we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God - it really doesn't matter if we are lesser or greater sinners and anyone who tells you otherwise has not studied the Bible

We are all in need of the same grace and forgiveness

DEFTLEFTHAND

They will inherit the earth, Christ came to us as a child born into a poor family.

In this country CC and Church of Ireland undoubtedly had class structures in the past, the human condition, the more wealth and prestige you have the more and influence you command. If you put down the meek and needy when your in such a position you are destined for the gates of Hell no matter how many church pews or wall plaques you sponsor.

Peregrinus

kneemos wrote: »

Doesn't make any sense.
How would wealth make you feel more uncomfortable?

It's not the wealth that might make you feel uncomfortable; it's hearing what the gospel has to say about wealth.