Second Car with 4WD / Turbo for Tuning

ironclaw

Been thinking about this for a while and I'm considering getting a car to 'tinker' with on the weekends. I'm talking upping the brakes, suspension and then going possible stage 3 / 4 on a remap and engine mods.

Basic outline is 4WD or Quattro, and certainly a Turbo'd engine for the maximum potential from remapping etc. I'd be looking for base spec above 220BHP. Year, I'd like to be in the early to mid 2000's. Budget, I think should be achievable below €9k.

Candidates so far include the Audi TT MK1 which has a pretty promising APR Tuning kit amongst others. Astra OPC and Seat Cupra also come into the same price bracket but are not 4WD. Megane RenaultSport is also a promising basis. Porsche Boxster comes into the same price range, but its non-turbo and no 4WD, but by review is the best 'drivers car'

Ideas and Suggestions?

Muppet Man

Golf R32? Not sure how customisable it is... But I know one or two lads that imported them from the uk for what they called "reasonable" money.

Happy holidays!
Muppet man

bazz26

Audi S3.

ironclaw

Muppet Man wrote: »

Golf R32

Yeah, certainly hit the radar. But you are looking at anywhere up to €10k for a decent one here and thats before doing anything to it. I also feel the premium you pay for 'Golf' here undoes the project basis. They do have a huge tuning spec though.

bazz26 wrote: »

Audi S3.

Thought had crossed my mind, but again, the cost is prohibitive for a decent model and I prefer the more recent body. Also, Irish units are very poor spec in comparison to the UK.

Other options include a sleeper such as the S4 or R36 Passat, which can be had for half nothing at the moment.

bazz26

What about a Mazda 6 MPS? 4wd, 2.3 litre turbo and 260bhp.

http://cars.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/07-mazda-6-mps-4wd/8119891

bodonnell

What about Impreza WRX, with the 2.5 engine, bhp started around 227

rowanh

What is your budget and is there a reason you are not looking at japanese cars?

Impreza / evo / Celica GT4 / skyline / Nissan Pulsar GTI-R / Diahatsu Mira trxx / subaru legacy

If you could afford one the r32 gtr skyline is an amazing car.

ironclaw

bodonnell wrote: »

What about Impreza WRX, with the 2.5 engine, bhp started around 227

Definitely on the cards. But very hard to find a clean example as they are a car that are either enthusiast owned or absolutely ragged. One or two have caught my eye however.

rowanh wrote: »

What is your budget and is there a reason you are not looking at japanese cars?

Impreza / evo / Celica GT4 / skyline / Nissan Pulsar GTI-R / Diahatsu Mira trxx / subaru legacy

If you could afford one the r32 gtr skyline is an amazing car.

Nothing against them. Great cars in their own right, just personal preference. Also I've found the insurance loading and risk of theft to be far higher on the Jap imports.

bazz26 wrote: »

What about a Mazda 6 MPS? 4wd, 2.3 litre turbo and 260bhp.

http://cars.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/07-mazda-6-mps-4wd/8119891

Never come across this before. Interesting! I know nothing about the engine block however and on the whole, it doesn't strike me as a good starting point from a handling perspective. Open to correction on that?

edburg

You talking 9k for everything or just car budget??

As a Astra OPC owner there getting very cheap over here, 5-6k gets a 06/07 car, 8.5-10k gets a nurburgring (uk cars getting 10-12k sterling still). Getting a proper looked after car is an absolutely a must though due to gearbox issue's some ragged ones get.

I have found the tuners are not very on ball as far as tuning goes. Either not interested or still in very early days of understanding the ecu/engines. Very easy to get to 300-310bhp with out major engine work, over this think about rods and arp bolts. Pistons are forged so unless your going nuts no need to change them.

For me a good box needs proper gear oil minimum, A diff and box breather which allows extra 1/2 litre oil even better.

Springs, rear anti roll bar with said diff above with OE ids+ has served me well handling wise even at Mondello. Coilovers be a waste unless you want it on its belly.

ianobrien

OP, I'd be looking at a jap car (an official Irish one rather than a JDM import) simply as they are generally more reliable and take use/abuse/tuning better.

Another suggestion is a Sapphire Cosworth, in either 2WD or 4WD depending on budget. Tuning the YB Cosworth lump is well known but can be expensive. Look up Burton Power for tuning parts.

If your budget is for car, tuning and insurance, there is really only one answer, Impreza. The early ones are just over 20 years old so you may get classic insurance.

Edit, what type of driving are you planning? If its mainly blasting around a race track, I'd look at 2WD as 4WD is a disadvantage due to the extra weight. If its for spirited back road driving, you could get a rally car and compete for a year on that sort of budget.

George Dalton

B5 Audi S4 is also within budget and has massive tuning potential. Wouldn't be a great track machine though. More of a straight line car.

Kevin!

edburg wrote: »

You talking 9k for everything or just car budget??

As a Astra OPC owner there getting very cheap over here, 5-6k gets a 06/07 car, 8.5-10k gets a nurburgring (uk cars getting 10-12k sterling still). Getting a proper looked after car is an absolutely a must though due to gearbox issue's some ragged ones get.

I have found the tuners are not very on ball as far as tuning goes. Either not interested or still in very early days of understanding the ecu/engines. Very easy to get to 300-310bhp with out major engine work, over this think about rods and arp bolts. Pistons are forged so unless your going nuts no need to change them.

For me a good box needs proper gear oil minimum, A diff and box breather which allows extra 1/2 litre oil even better.

Springs, rear anti roll bar with said diff above with OE ids+ has served me well handling wise even at Mondello. Coilovers be a waste unless you want it on its belly.

A fellow OPC owner myself, there are a few brilliant tuners in the UK such as Rabbid and Courtenay Sport but in Ireland there isn't many of them.

The Nurburgring edition in Ireland has no performance advantage over the stock OPC, although they do look great! They have a Remus turbo back exhaust system fitted as standard in the UK - so if your looking at it mainly from a performance point of view the standard OPC is probably the best bet

Have a look on vxronline.co.uk, a lot of the members have stage 3,

best of luck!

ironclaw

Thanks for all the input folks. Really starting to look interesting. Astra OPC and S4 are the forerunners at the moment, simply going on low cost for the base car and the potential. I'll keep you posted!

@Kevin!, have you Staged 3 your OPC?

MuppetCheck

If the OPC is in the mix then surely an ST has to be in with a shout.

BMJD

Astra OPC is front wheel drive, is it not?

Personally, I wouldn't be looking for anything other than a Subaru or Evo. An R32 or R33 GTR is going to be outside your budget for anything in decent nick. You really need to do your homework though to sift through the junk that is out there.

You might get this for close to your budget:
http://cars.donedeal.ie/view/8217835

The Evo VI is my personal favourite but it's hard to argue with 500+bhp for €10k. The Mazda 6 MPS is an interesting alternative though.

Technoprisoner

are you looking to tune/map the car yourself or do you plan on getting someone to do it for you?

Veloce

Are you looking for permanent 4wd? If so I'd tend to clear of the Audi "Quattro" cars. Impreza wrx is where I'd start.

ironclaw

Technoprisoner wrote: »

are you looking to tune/map the car yourself or do you plan on getting someone to do it for you?

As techy as I am, I'll be leaving it up to the professionals.

Veloce wrote: »

Are you looking for permanent 4wd? If so I'd tend to clear of the Audi "Quattro" cars. Impreza wrx is where I'd start.

Certainly a good point. The pro's and con's of Haldex, Quattro etc. The Impreza has come up on multiple threads where I've and others have asked this question. The only thing I have against the Impreza is the perception of it and the theft risk. I've had quite a few mates have their taken or attempted e.g. Boy racer / Joyride vibe going on there. But from a technical standpoint, its the leader to be fair.

If the OPC is in the mix then surely an ST has to be in with a shout.

ST was on the books but then I was talking to a mate about them. Apparently they are great fun, super fast but exceptionally thirsty around town. Not that fuel economy is my concern, not one bit, but as a fellow nut he said he wouldn't own one again which put me off considerably.

The Evo VI is my personal favourite but it's hard to argue with 500+bhp for €10k. The Mazda 6 MPS is an interesting alternative though.

Evo is a very impressive car. And between the Impreza and it, I'd choose the Evo. But the same issues would be present and I don't think I could ever leave it parked anywhere and expect to see it again. Also, like you said, they are ragged around the country so you have no idea what you are buying really. A decent model is well outside the budget here I feel.

George Dalton

The Audi S4 is a theft risk as well. As I found out to my cost a couple of years back!

Technoprisoner

I've driven evos for the last 8 years.... And only once has someone tried to rob one and fail...they are good strong cars so as long as they haven't seen too much abuse they should be OK.... You should be able to tell from the general condition of the car how it has been treated over the years. and there are still many good evos left in this country

chriity139

Why not an e46 m3 or e39 m5. Monster of cars out of the box without any tuning with tuning id say they would be something special

Neilw

chriity139 wrote: »

Why not an e46 m3 or e39 m5. Monster of cars out of the box without any tuning with tuning id say they would be something special

Running costs outside of purchase price, tax and fuel is very high on cars like the two above. Someone did a breakdown of M5 ownership and they reckoned you need 5k a year to keep one right.

chriity139

Neilw wrote: »

Running costs outside of purchase price, tax and fuel is very high on cars like the two above. Someone did a breakdown of M5 ownership and they reckoned you need 5k a year to keep one right.

I owned a subaru impreza sti for around 7 years. The running costs per year wasn't much less than 5k. Would be the same with evo's, rs4's etc They are not cheap to run but the smiles per mile makes it worth every cent

ironclaw

chriity139 wrote: »

I owned a subaru impreza sti for around 7 years. The running costs per year wasn't much less than 5k. Would be the same with evo's, rs4's etc They are not cheap to run but the smiles per mile makes it worth every cent

Absolutely. For me, I'd rather smile that worry about the cost. Because frankly I wouldn't even be considering this project if I was worried about the running costs. I accept cars cost money, no point in cheap skating.

Doing the math, for the E39 M5 here for the laugh, Parkers state the MPG as 19MPG (12.37 L/100km) Doing a round trip of 70km commute per day, 5 days a week:

70km * 5 = 350km or about 45L of fuel, which is about €61 per week or €3172 per year.

Tax, €1800 per year.

So before you insure, I'm looking at the bones of €5k just to run it. Add in, most likely at this stage an NCT and some mechanical work, you won't have much change out of €6 to 7k.

Taking the Astra VXR, or OPC as its known here, at 30mpg (7.84L/100km), 28L of fuel per week, so €38 per week or €2k roughly per year. Tax, about €700. So your looking at €2.7k to run before insurance, NCT and maintenance.

All told, there actually ain't that much between them when you consider the overall cost of car ownership etc. Taking all them as ideals, the M5 or similar is really only going to cost you a shade more.

Neilw

The €5k I mentioned on the M5 was not including tax or fuel but for maintenance, wear and tear, tyres, niggles that need to be fixed. Some of them are over 15 years old so could need a lot of work.

Veloce

Neilw wrote: »

The €5k I mentioned on the M5 was not including tax or fuel but for maintenance, wear and tear, tyres, niggles that need to be fixed. Some of them are over 15 years old so could need a lot of work.

Exactly- wear and tear items are always expensive with the M machines. Brake pads, discs, clutches, tyres etc

A 335i twin turbo would be a good one in terms of 'mapability' but I think the asking prices on these are still quite strong?

Is theft a very high concern of yours OP? Any type of high performance machine is going to be tempting from the joyriders to the post office getaway professionals... I recall a poster over on BRs who used to own a M5 (think it was a e60) and was followed home by a group of scummers one afternoon. Luckily the M5 driver copped it and circed a roundabout non-stop until they left him alone..

Maybe stick a good alarm system and tracking device to anything you do get and if possible keep it out of sight from the road.

Kevin!

ironclaw wrote: »

Absolutely. For me, I'd rather smile that worry about the cost. Because frankly I wouldn't even be considering this project if I was worried about the running costs. I accept cars cost money, no point in cheap skating.

Doing the math, for the E39 M5 here for the laugh, Parkers state the MPG as 19MPG (12.37 L/100km) Doing a round trip of 70km commute per day, 5 days a week:

70km * 5 = 350km or about 45L of fuel, which is about €61 per week or €3172 per year.

Tax, €1800 per year.

So before you insure, I'm looking at the bones of €5k just to run it. Add in, most likely at this stage an NCT and some mechanical work, you won't have much change out of €6 to 7k.

Taking the Astra VXR, or OPC as its known here, at 30mpg (7.84L/100km), 28L of fuel per week, so €38 per week or €2k roughly per year. Tax, about €700. So your looking at €2.7k to run before insurance, NCT and maintenance.

All told, there actually ain't that much between them when you consider the overall cost of car ownership etc. Taking all them as ideals, the M5 or similar is really only going to cost you a shade more.

Haven't done any performance mods yet on the OPC it's running stock. In regards to the MPG, I think 30MPG is a fairly generous estimate, I get around 20-25 city driving with the odd rip but mainly cruising

ironclaw

Cheers folks. The math I did above was more for myself and yes, its ex any work outside pure running costs. So with that, the likes of the M3 / M5 is out as it just blows the budget wide open. Security, is a concern, but all the cars run tight security and trackers. If they want it, its what insurance is for.

123d, 130i, 330d and 535d have come up, and they are reasonable in terms of performance and some do fall in the budget. Remapping etc has seen some pretty good gains. They do fail the 4WD criteria however, but I'm beginning to think thats a little limiting. The likes of the S4 seems to be offering the best of all worlds at the moment.

farna_boy

ironclaw wrote: »

Cheers folks. The math I did above was more for myself and yes, its ex any work outside pure running costs. So with that, the likes of the M3 / M5 is out as it just blows the budget wide open. Security, is a concern, but all the cars run tight security and trackers. If they want it, its what insurance is for.

123d, 130i, 330d and 535d have come up, and they are reasonable in terms of performance and some do fall in the budget. Remapping etc has seen some pretty good gains. They do fail the 4WD criteria however, but I'm beginning to think thats a little limiting. The likes of the S4 seems to be offering the best of all worlds at the moment.

A Legacy B4 could be a good option as it is 4WD and doesn't have the image/insurance problems of other cars. It's also considerably cheaper (well the 2.0l B4 RSK) which would allow more tuning. The problem is for that particular model you might need all that extra budget to get (significantly) more out of the engine.

ironclaw

farna_boy wrote: »

A Legacy B4 could be a good option as it is 4WD and doesn't have the image/insurance problems of other cars. It's also considerably cheaper (well the 2.0l B4 RSK) which would allow more tuning. The problem is for that particular model you might need all that extra budget to get (significantly) more out of the engine.

A friend has had a few B4's and there was a mint one in my locality for a long time. However the mate that had one had nothing but bother with it so I have mixed feelings about getting one. That said, great car. I think however from a bang for buck perspective, its going to need a decent bit of tinkering to get it to the base stage of some of the other models mentioned here.

edburg

ironclaw wrote: »

Absolutely. For me, I'd rather smile that worry about the cost. Because frankly I wouldn't even be considering this project if I was worried about the running costs. I accept cars cost money, no point in cheap skating.

Doing the math, for the E39 M5 here for the laugh, Parkers state the MPG as 19MPG (12.37 L/100km) Doing a round trip of 70km commute per day, 5 days a week:

70km * 5 = 350km or about 45L of fuel, which is about €61 per week or €3172 per year.

Tax, €1800 per year.

So before you insure, I'm looking at the bones of €5k just to run it. Add in, most likely at this stage an NCT and some mechanical work, you won't have much change out of €6 to 7k.

Taking the Astra VXR, or OPC as its known here, at 30mpg (7.84L/100km), 28L of fuel per week, so €38 per week or €2k roughly per year. Tax, about €700. So your looking at €2.7k to run before insurance, NCT and maintenance.

All told, there actually ain't that much between them when you consider the overall cost of car ownership etc. Taking all them as ideals, the M5 or similar is really only going to cost you a shade more.

You converted your 7.84l/100 into USA mpg there where as the euro imperial would be 36mpg for the above.

I am stage 3 with my Nurburgring OPC and with just short blapping around and odd longer distance meet run I see on average 8.2-8.4l/100km which is around 33-34mpg. I have had on long distance motorway cruising on holiday with 98 octane fuel seen figures of 7.4-5l/100 (38mpg). When I was working in cork I would see the average 7.9-8.0l/100 (35mpg) travelling from Fermoy/Charleville, this being the slow cruise of a man not wanting to go to work in morning though lol (6th gear 90km)

With a good map to our incredibly unpotent fuel 30mpg should be seen easy realistic enough with an Astra OPC.