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House sold with mis-advertised BER

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  • 23-12-2014 6:58pm
    #1
    galleria
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭


    I have just purchased a 3 bedroom semi-detached house. It was advertised on daft & the estate agents website as having a C1 BER rating. I have just found out that it is in fact a G rating! The sale has now closed. I didn't push to get hold of the cert myself because my solicitor said she would receive it at some stage during the process. She asked for it - but it was not sent on. She should have brought this to my attention. She didn't. I believe the legal onus was on the vendor or vendors solicitor to make sure to furnish the BER cert to the me prior to sale? There's a huge difference between a C1 & a G. What should I do? Am I legally bound to the sale if false information was provided?

    Any advice appreciated! Thanks.


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    #2
    MouseTail
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭MouseTail


    Has the purchase completed?
    i would think the onus was on your solicitor not to close the sale until the cert was furnished.

    perhaps look into raising a complaint with the Law Society against your solicitor. You would need very deep pockets to go any other route.


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    #3
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,417 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    I would say nothing except report EA. Adverts always carry the check the info yourself line and your solicitor should have looked for ber no. Whenever I look at house, I ask for ber number so I can look at report online to verify sq ft etc. Not to sound cruel but surely you could spot the difference between a c1 and g?


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    #4
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,324 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    What do you want to hear?
    It's very easy to tell the difference between the two, a g rated house will be old and single glazed where as a c1 will be new enough and should have a minimum of double glaze.
    The BER isn't really worth much anyway.

    Your structural survey should have pointed out that windows need replacing, boiler could do with being updated, hit tank has no insulation. Changing bulbs will help bring it up.

    Houses are sold as seen


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    #5
    Rabbo
    Registered Users Posts: 637 ✭✭✭Rabbo


    Has the sale completed or have you just signed contracts?
    I'd imagine you have a way out if you really want however surely you had an idea what the actual rating would be before purchasing? Did you get an engineers survey completed?


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    #6
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,299 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Immediately secure copies of the advertising material, including saves and screen shots of any online material.
    ted1 wrote: »
    Houses are sold as seen
    In general terms, yes, but this may be a case of a breach or statutory requirements.


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    #7
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,324 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Victor wrote: »
    Immediately secure copies of the advertising material, including saves and screen shots of any online material.

    In general terms, yes, but this may be a case of a breach or statutory requirements.

    Sales material and advertising don't form any part of a contract and having them will be pretty useless.


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    #8
    mr_seer
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭mr_seer


    ted1 wrote: »
    Sales material and advertising don't form any part of a contract and having them will be pretty useless.

    It is illegal to advertise a property for sale without a (correct) BER cert. The agent has committed an offense. The problem in that the PSRA are the worst quango in the state and do not enforce this law. You should definitely report this to them nonetheless. Your solicitor also should have had this in place pre signing, never mind pre closing.

    Good luck to you and I really hope that it works out


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    #9
    JOSman
    Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭JOSman


    Sorry Guys,

    All the EA has to say that it printed the information given to them.

    Ask your solicitor what can be done about this.


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    #10
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,740 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    What do you want to happen? Do you you want to walk away from the sale now, or do you want compensation from someone?

    Alongside the legalities, you need to be considering what you want to be different, and how to achieve that.


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    #11
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,220 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Assuming the solicitor had sight of the agent's particulars but not the cert, I would see the oversight as a negligence issue. It's relevant not only to you but also to any lender.


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    #12
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,324 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    mr_seer wrote: »
    It is illegal to advertise a property for sale without a (correct) BER cert. The agent has committed an offense. The problem in that the PSRA are the worst quango in the state and do not enforce this law.

    Good luck to you and I really hope that it works out

    Don't start talking rubbish, the place had a BER cert, that is enough to satisfy the legal requirements. there was a misprint or typo.
    There is nothing for the PRSA to enforce


    OP did you not get a survey done? There's nobeay a G rated could visually be mistaken as a C rating,


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    #13
    Diane Selwyn
    Registered Users Posts: 257 ✭✭Diane Selwyn


    I don't know if a solicitor has any obligation to investigate the existence of and/or verify the details of a BER but if the agent advertised a cert. number anyone should be able to access the advisory report online at any time during or after the sale.


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    #14
    mr_seer
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭mr_seer


    ted1 wrote: »
    Don't start talking rubbish, the place had a BER cert, that is enough to satisfy the legal requirements. there was a misprint or typo.
    There is nothing for the PRSA to enforce


    OP did you not get a survey done? There's nobeay a G rated could visually be mistaken as a C rating,

    Wow you must be a particularly sensitive EA or something. It is an offense to advertise a property for sale without a BER cert or with an incorrect one. See attached

    http://www.seai.ie/Your_Building/BER/EPBD/SI_243_of_2012_EPBD.pdf


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    #15
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,324 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    mr_seer wrote: »
    Wow you must be a particularly sensitive EA or something. It is an offense to advertise a property for sale without a BER cert or with an incorrect one. See attached

    http://www.seai.ie/Your_Building/BER/EPBD/SI_243_of_2012_EPBD.pdf
    No not an EA just get fed up of people giving incorrect and bad advice.
    Now in the piece you linked, what paragraph does it state it's an offence to advertise a property with an incorrect BER cert.


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    #16
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Did you get an engineer's survey done? I know the BER is required, but honestly they are such a pile of codswallop I completely ignore them and read the engineer's report instead. They actually do measurements and take readings.

    When selling my own house, I had two BER assessments done by different people. For one of them I removed all the light bulbs in the house. The results? Two entire letter grades difference between the two BER's on the exact same house. To me, it's a meaningless pencil-pushing exercise.

    Forget about it and move on.


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    #17
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    OP, I don't think the solicitor should have allowed you to complete the purchase without having details of the BER cert. First question to the should be why they didn't follow up. In my experience of buying and selling properties the last few years, it has always been a requirement.

    What do you want out of this? Can you make a house with a G rating a C1 with double glazing and some insulation or is there more to it than that? If you had the correct rating all along would you have bid on the house at all? Or bid a lower price to factor in windows etc?

    Did you have a survey carried out? Did it not highlight anything?


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    #18
    mr_seer
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭mr_seer


    ted1 wrote: »
    No not an EA just get fed up of people giving incorrect and bad advice.
    Now in the piece you linked, what paragraph does it state it's an offence to advertise a property with an incorrect BER cert.

    It is not incorrect. Section 12 (bottom of p15 on) Advertising a BER extensively covers the obligations of a person advertising a property for sale or letting and those of an agent advertising it on their behalf. Section 15 (p18) refers to the offenses as being someone who contravenes these provisions and states that proceedings and prosecutions may be brought against such people


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    #19
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,324 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    mr_seer wrote: »
    It is not incorrect. Section 12 (bottom of p15 on) Advertising a BER extensively covers the obligations of a person advertising a property for sale or letting and those of an agent advertising it on their behalf. Section 15 (p18) refers to the offenses as being someone who contravenes these provisions and states that proceedings and prosecutions may be brought against such people

    The BER was displayed but there was a typo.
    Anyway that's not going to help the OP.
    OP with regards your solicter he may have seen the cert, and tucked the box he had no requirement to pass judgement or comment on the result.

    Once again how old is the house? Did you get an emgineers report? Did you read it? BERs are pretty useless


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    #20
    mr_seer
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭mr_seer


    ted1 wrote: »
    The BER was displayed but there was a typo.
    Anyway that's not going to help the OP.
    OP with regards your solicter he may have seen the cert, and tucked the box he had no requirement to pass judgement or comment on the result.

    Once again how old is the house? Did you get an emgineers report? Did you read it? BERs are pretty useless

    The cert has to be displayed in addition to the reference number and the energy indicator. A typo is not a get out clause I am afraid


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    #21
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,324 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    mr_seer wrote: »
    The cert has to be displayed in addition to the reference number and the energy indicator. A typo is not a get out clause I am afraid

    Produced when asked.i fail to see how your helping the OP.


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    #22
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Mr_Seer ted1 can you cut it out please.


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    #23
    galleria
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭galleria


    Thanks for all the input. Definitely some things to look into there.

    We got a survey but its not up to scratch and in retrospect we should have got another one - we were told by the estate agent that, as it was at that point sale agreed, if we wanted to get an offer in on the house we had to get a surveyor in that day so we went with the only person we could find who was available at such short notice. Though we sought him independently it turns out he is the surveyor the estate agent was suggesting. We informed him of the advertised rating but he didn't raise it as an issue or concern in the report. I've since spoken to the people we were bidding against & turns out they have the exact same report word for word. Very annoying!

    I have to admit we were skeptical of the C1 rating but as our solicitor said the ber cert would be sent to her we thought we'd see what would show up. It was only the day it the sale went through we asked her about it - and she then said it was up to us to get it off the estate agent. Yes - should have been more on top of things but it was a busy time and to be honest we trusted the solicitor was taking care it.

    I believe the completion date of the sale has passed & all money has been transferred at this point. I have the keys. I have only signed the contract for sale. Is there something else to be signed to complete the sale?

    This is the best information I have found on where we stand with this > lawsociety.ie/Solicitors/Practising/Practice-Notes/Building-Energy-Rating-BER-Certificates/#.VJnt6cAgE4.

    Still I'm just not sure on where we go from here. The hope is our solicitor will help us to resolve the matter in the New Year (there's nothing other than research can be done over the hols). Ideally what we are looking for is some money to be reimbursed to put towards improving the rating (a few thousand) - to compensate for their breach of the regulations. I believe we could potentially fight to get out of the contract as mandatory relevant information was not supplied - but really this is not the preferred scenario.

    "The clear import of the regulations is to ensure that prospective purchasers have the relevant information concerning the energy usage of a building they are contemplating buying or leasing. That objective cannot be fulfilled if the purchaser is bound to a contract in advance of knowing the information."

    Thanks for all the help. Will post an update in the New Year when when there's some developments.


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    #24
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,324 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    What exactly do you want?
    Sounds to me like you have a case of buyers remorse, and trying to chance your arm.

    At the end of the day the surveyors report should have said windows need replacing etc.

    With regards being rushed to get a surveyors before a bid.

    Genreally people go sale agreed subject to a surveyors report. You excuse seems to hold little water and if you tried to do anything official they'll note that you didn't do your due diligence


    A higher rating can be achieved without spending thousands.
    Sign up to electric ireland and get a free climote or best. That gives you heating controls.

    Replace Bulbs with LED. Stick on a lagging jacket.

    Insulate the attic.

    How old is the house?


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    #25
    Supercell
    Registered Users Posts: 15,335 ✭✭✭✭Supercell


    OP if you have signed the contracts it's pretty much a done deal. The difference between G and C is massive, your surveyors report should really have highlighted the insulation (or lack of) but there isnt anything now that can be done IMHO.

    As others have pointed out you can do a lot to improve this easily enough. Our house was a E which we brought up to a C by insulating the attic, replacing the boiler, putting trvs on the rads (which are a waste of time tbh and not used anymore) and replacing the single glazed windows with double glazing. You can get quite a fair amount of the cost of this back from the SEAI as a grant (you need to apply for the grant BEFORE doing the work - the tradesmen sign the doc the SEAI send you as the work is done). Electric Ireland are doing a promotion at the moment for new customers for a free Nest including installation which I cannot remommend more highly, our gas bill was half compared to what it was last year since we got it installed!
    https://www.loughlinstown.ie

    Have a weather station?, why not join the Ireland Weather Network - http://irelandweather.eu/



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    #26
    MouseTail
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭MouseTail


    ted1 wrote: »
    Sounds to me like you have a case of buyers remorse, and trying to chance your arm.


    I don't think that's fair, the OPs solicitor was negligent here, and if they were that sloppy I would wonder what else wasn't checked, property tax, NPPR etc.


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    #27
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,324 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    MouseTail wrote: »
    I don't think that's fair, the OPs solicitor was negligent here, and if they were that sloppy I would wonder what else wasn't checked, property tax, NPPR etc.

    Mouse tail the house has a BER, How were the negligent?
    If they saw it what difference would it make? It's just a box ticked it's not for them to comment on.
    OP did you say to the solicitor "this house is a C rated house, I will not buy it if it is lower"
    Did you tell the solicitor what rating it has?


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    #28
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,854 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Always get a new BER rating done as part of the survey. In the larger scheme of things its not expensive to bring a G house up to a D or C, so you might get a few quid off the sale price if you can verify that the advertised BER is exaggerated.

    At the end of the day its the responsibility of the buyer to be absolutely satisfied that all the paperwork is in place before signing. And Id be watching my own solicitor above all others....


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    #29
    dixiefly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,947 ✭✭✭dixiefly


    galleria wrote: »
    Thanks for all the input. Definitely some things to look into there.

    We got a survey but its not up to scratch and in retrospect we should have got another one - we were told by the estate agent that, as it was at that point sale agreed, if we wanted to get an offer in on the house we had to get a surveyor in that day so we went with the only person we could find who was available at such short notice. Though we sought him independently it turns out he is the surveyor the estate agent was suggesting. We informed him of the advertised rating but he didn't raise it as an issue or concern in the report. I've since spoken to the people we were bidding against & turns out they have the exact same report word for word. Very annoying!

    I have to admit we were skeptical of the C1 rating but as our solicitor said the ber cert would be sent to her we thought we'd see what would show up. It was only the day it the sale went through we asked her about it - and she then said it was up to us to get it off the estate agent. Yes - should have been more on top of things but it was a busy time and to be honest we trusted the solicitor was taking care it.

    Why was it up to ye? Was it not her job to get all the paperwork??


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    #30
    blackcat7
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭blackcat7


    OP on the sales info did they give the reference number for the Ber? If so they really were unlikely to have been trying to conceal anything as you can just go online and access the complete report. In fact I think you may be able to access the reports with just the address of the house but I'm not sure about that.

    When I bought my house a year ago the Ber listed on the brochure was B but the house was actually F. I never even gave it a second thought it was so obviously not a B, the boiler was an antique & it was freezing. It was v clear it needed a major up grade.

    I think you could probably report the EA if you wanted to but as for having any grounds for compensation I would forget about it. It's not the responsibility of your solicitor or the EA to tell you about the condition of the house you need to make those enquiries yourself. And as others have said all the upgrades needed should have been flagged by the survey report anyway Ber wouldn't really have given anything additional.

    Good luck with it anyway


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    #31
    MouseTail
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭MouseTail


    ted1 wrote: »
    Mouse tail the house has a BER, How were the negligent?
    If they saw it what difference would it make? It's just a box ticked it's not for them to comment on.
    OP did you say to the solicitor "this house is a C rated house, I will not buy it if it is lower"
    Did you tell the solicitor what rating it has?

    The solicitor closed the Sale without evidence of a BER. The OP states the solicitor asked for it, it wasn't forthcoming from the vendor, but they closed anyway. Whilst it is not up to the solicitor to comment on the rating, it is their job to get either the physical cert or the reference number, to furnish it to their client, and keep it on file, together with evidence of taxes paid etc.
    That box wasn't ticked, a very very basic box. I do agree it makes little difference to the OP, the house clearly needs work to bring it up to scratch, this was evident at viewing. I would be concerned at the standard of conveyancing work though. Sloppy and shoddy.


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