Legal to Refuse Entry?

Sigerson

Hi all,

I'd like to know is it legal or illegal to refuse entry to certain pub's/club's if you're under 21 for example.
Apologies if this question has been previously asked but I'd really like to find out for definite.
Once you turn 18, surely you should be allowed into a pub, as long as you're not legless.

Thanks a lot for any replies I get.

GarIT

Simple answer is yes. Owner has the right to refuse entry to anyone.

GerardKeating

GarIT wrote: »

Simple answer is yes. Owner has the right to refuse entry to anyone.

Not exactly, they cannot refuse on certain grounds, Race, Gender, Membership of the Travelling Communites etc.

Sigerson

GerardKeating wrote: »

Not exactly, they cannot refuse on certain grounds, Race, Gender, Membership of the Travelling Communites etc.

Would it not be regarded as discrimination if they refused based on age, no?

kippy

Sigerson wrote: »

Would it not be regarded as discrimination if they refused based on age, no?

No.

hullaballoo

What are people's views on the precise legal nature of public access to private property such as this? Ordinarily, I'm not entitled to access property owned by someone else without lawful authority, such as the lease that allows me to enter the house I rent.

My view is that there's an implied licence that allows me to enter a retail premises and that licence can be revoked at any time without notice and without the need to provide areason. The implied licence exists only in relation to members of the public not expressly excluded by the owner, for example, members of the public over the age of 21. Once the owner does not exclude people on the grounds listed above, there are no bars on the owner specifying the limitations of the implied licence.

Is there anything in the liquor licensing legislation, or even at common law, that says that a pub is in some way different? Is there an obligation to admit certain people?

MarkAnthony

IIRC and I'm just about to head out the door so someone else will have to confirm it :pac: there is a specific exemption for the over 21s rule.

GarIT

GerardKeating wrote: »

Not exactly, they cannot refuse on certain grounds, Race, Gender, Membership of the Travelling Communites etc.

As I said they can refuse entry to anyone, there are certain grounds for refusal that they can't use so they just don't.

I know black people that were refused entry to clubs 20 years ago because the bouncer "didn't like his attitude" without even talking to the guy or "didn't like how he was dressed" even though it was the same as everybody else or just "not tonight" and refuse to say anything else.

It is quite **** that places can discriminate based on age in some circumstances, e.g. insurance should be based on experience regardless of age. In a club people are generally more comfortable if they are in a group they can associate with such as their own age range so it is more acceptable in this context.

GerardKeating

GarIT wrote: »

How do you prove that though. I know black people that were refused entry to clubs 20 years ago because the bouncer "didn't like his attitude" without even talking to the guy or "didn't like how he was dressed" even though it was the same as everybody else or just "not tonight" and refuse to say anything else.

Difficult to prove, but if the 20% of the people who turn up are "Black/ Brown/ Whatever" and they represent 100% of the people not let in, it can be a bit obvious.

GarIT wrote: »

It is quite **** that places can discriminate based on age in some circumstances, e.g. insurance should be based on experience regardless of age. In a club people are generally more comfortable if they are in a group they can associate with such as their own age range so it is more acceptable in this context.

Bars etc. need some latitude with the age rule, to protect them selves against the 15 year who looks 22, which is when most cite 25 when the legal limit is 18.

conorh91

hullaballoo wrote: »

Is there anything in the liquor licensing legislation, or even at common law, that says that a pub is in some way different? Is there an obligation to admit certain people?

There was a case a few years ago where an Englishman sought leave to JR the decision of his local pubs to bar him en masse. Leave was refused!

But in the US and UK there is a legitimate debate around quasi-public spaces whether such places have a sufficiently public element to bring them within the purview of public law. Such cases usually involve shopping centres where particular 'types' of youths may be barred.

A bit of a web search indicates that the courts in Canada and Australia have recognised a doctrine of reasonable access

LawlessBoy

They just are not aloud to say that its on them grounds.

Work in a shop in town where security refuse people entry daily. A Simple "sorry not today" followed by a question "why?" by the refused to which the response is usually a finger pointed to the sign on the door saying "Management reserve the right to refuse admission". Nothing else has to be said and you dont have to be given a reason.

Manach

While from an economic sense to turn away customers is a poor decision with its own inbuilt penalties it can be balanced by the owners interest in private property and the inherent attribute of limiting access to such.

Mr. Incognito

hullaballoo wrote: »

What are people's views on the precise legal nature of public access to private property such as this? Ordinarily, I'm not entitled to access property owned by someone else without lawful authority, such as the lease that allows me to enter the house I rent.

My view is that there's an implied licence that allows me to enter a retail premises and that licence can be revoked at any time without notice and without the need to provide areason. The implied licence exists only in relation to members of the public not expressly excluded by the owner, for example, members of the public over the age of 21. Once the owner does not exclude people on the grounds listed above, there are no bars on the owner specifying the limitations of the implied licence.

Is there anything in the liquor licensing legislation, or even at common law, that says that a pub is in some way different? Is there an obligation to admit certain people?

There was a case on this where guards argued a pub had an implied licence for persons to enter where their warrant was invalid on technical grounds.

They lost on that argument and were held to be in the premises without consent and illegally. Public houses can refuse anyone anytime on any grounds.

If it is shown they discriminated on one of the nine grounds they can be fined. They can discriminate and simply say they reserve the right to refuse as the reason and they are bulletproof

Grab All Association

I was refused entry to a pub one night. What happened next was so funny. I said nothing to the bouncers I just walked a bit up the street made a phone call and the owners daughter (who was my girlfriend at the time) came down and verbally attacked them and threatened to fire them. the smug look they gave everybody at the door turned into a painful smile for the rest of the night. I hate nightclubs was the only time I was ever in one.

Santa Cruz

Chris___ wrote: »

I was refused entry to a pub one night. What happened next was so funny. I said nothing to the bouncers I just walked a bit up the street made a phone call and the owners daughter (who was my girlfriend at the time) came down and verbally attacked them and threatened to fire them. the smug look they gave everybody at the door turned into a painful smile for the rest of the night. I hate nightclubs was the only time I was ever in one.

Why did she have to verbally atttack them? They stopped you for a reason. All she had to say to them was that you were her boyfriend and I'm sure there wouldn't be a problem.

Grab All Association

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Why did she have to verbally atttack them? They stopped you for a reason. All she had to say to them was that you were her boyfriend and I'm sure there wouldn't be a problem.

I don't want to disclose what the reason was its physical thing and it was pretty much hell growing up in this country during the 80s/90s but it was why I was discriminated against and why she lost it at them.

Bongalongherb

I've been there. I don't want to sound like a broken record but the amount of times I soberly tried to enter many different pubs and clubs I was told not tonight - not tonight - and not tonight. Funnily enough I was always allowed access to copper face jacks no problem at all.

My dress code was above reproach and I was well groomed, but for some reason I got a serious amount of refusals of entry to many many pubs and clubs. The bouncers just kept saying not tonight. After the continuation of this I decided to give-up going to pubs and clubs and saved myself a fortune.

Zambia

I once was refused entry to a club, I responded the club had been running radio ads all week and here I was?

He let me in then ... I speak as an ex door man that some door men get the weirdest ideas in their heads.

The right to refuse admission is essential to running any venue. However as a business you should be well aware of what is happening at your door!

Bongalongherb

Zambia wrote: »

I once was refused entry to a club, I responded the club had been running radio ads all week and here I was?

He let me in then ... I speak as an ex door man that some door men get the weirdest ideas in their heads.

The right to refuse admission is essential to running any venue. However as a business you should be well aware of what is happening at your door!

But why do you folks not allow a person in of which is perfectly sober and casual and neat with a chilled smile on their face that only want to have a beer and some good music ? and why do most bouncers not at least tell you why you are being refused ? it's befuddling.

Paz-CCFC

hullaballoo wrote: »

What are people's views on the precise legal nature of public access to private property such as this? Ordinarily, I'm not entitled to access property owned by someone else without lawful authority, such as the lease that allows me to enter the house I rent.

My view is that there's an implied licence that allows me to enter a retail premises and that licence can be revoked at any time without notice and without the need to provide areason.

Unless a product is bought on the premises, to which a contractual licence attaches. If you just sit down with a drink and you're immediately forced to leave, I'd argue that that's a breach of an implied term of the contract.

The implied licence exists only in relation to members of the public not expressly excluded by the owner, for example, members of the public over the age of 21. Once the owner does not exclude people on the grounds listed above, there are no bars on the owner specifying the limitations of the implied licence.

Is there anything in the liquor licensing legislation, or even at common law, that says that a pub is in some way different? Is there an obligation to admit certain people?

Section 15(3) of the Equal Status Act (as inserted by the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2003) allows for the refusal of service of alcohol to any person over 18 provided three criteria are followed. The pub adopts a minimum age policy; it's displayed clearly inside or on the outside of the premises; it's done in good faith. I'd wonder how many such pubs actually display a notice clearly or just operate on a reputation of being above a certain age. They really should be required to have a notice clearly on the outside; allowing it to be placed on the inside doesn't really give people notice of the pub's policies. Then again, legislation is shockingly lacking in relation to consumer information at bars - eg, the absolute flimsy pricing regulations (Retail Price (Beverages in Licensed Premises) Display Order 1999).

Section 15(3) specifies the refusal of intoxicating liquor. I wonder what the case would be if there was a cover charge for a night club, the service for that being access to the club/listening to the music, not necessarily provision of alcohol. Could someone under the age of the policy (but above 18) claim that he wanted to enter without the intent of purchasing alcohol and claim that refusal to provide the service breached the 2000 Act?

Victor

Bongalongherb wrote: »

and why do most bouncers not at least tell you why you are being refused ?

So as to not start a fight / rules lawyering.

Losty Dublin

Bongalongherb wrote: »

But why do you folks not allow a person in of which is perfectly sober and casual and neat with a chilled smile on their face that only want to have a beer and some good music ?

Having spent 20 years working in bars and clubs and hotels, I cam assure you that the sobriety, neatness and general all round top guy-ness of those who are refused service is up there with the amount of innocent men in prison

The lads on the doors know their job just a little better than we think and are well able to spot potential hassle; don't forget that they see tens of thousands of punters pass them by every year. They have a lot to contend with, and for relatively meagre pay as a rule.

Yes they do make mistakes and they may come over as shirty or ignorant at times but it's better that the mistakes are made on the outside of the bar rather than the inside.

Bongalongherb wrote: »

and why do most bouncers not at least tell you why you are being refused ? it's befuddling.

Ever heard of the saying, "Never argue with an idiot?"

Pat Mustard

Bongalongherb wrote: »

why do most bouncers not at least tell you why you are being refused ? it's befuddling.

Because if they give a reason, they may be giving evidence which may be used against their employer in a complaint about discrimination.

braddun

dress posher