Buses "Not in Service" With Passengers On Board

chops018

So, I walk from work to the bus stop. Check the app along the way, see that my bus does usually be 5 mins due to arrive. I see the what bus is expected before and after.

I get to the bus stop a minute or two later and see the same thing on the board.

I see the expected buses coming, then bam, the bus I usually get with the passengers I know get that bus on it and the bus has the not in service sign on.

I saw this happen way too regularly and emailed Dublin Bus, got a reply saying it's being looked at but that was 2 months ago.

It happens way to much and I end up losing time and have to shoot across to a LUAS or walk the rest of the way.

This is very frustrating and you think that they would just take this bus off the app and remove it from the board. This way I could keep going and get home faster.

Has anyone noticed this before or has it happened to them? Terrible carry on by Dublin bus.

cdebru

chops018 wrote: »

So, I walk from work to the bus stop. Check the app along the way, see that my bus does usually be 5 mins due to arrive. I see the what bus is expected before and after.

I get to the bus stop a minute or two later and see the same thing on the board.

I see the expected buses coming, then bam, the bus I usually get with the passengers I know get that bus on it and the bus has the not in service sign on.

I saw this happen way too regularly and emailed Dublin Bus, got a reply saying it's being looked at but that was 2 months ago.

It happens way to much and I end up losing time and have to shoot across to a LUAS or walk the rest of the way.

This is very frustrating and you think that they would just take this bus off the app and remove it from the board. This way I could keep going and get home faster.

Has anyone noticed this before or has it happened to them? Terrible carry on by Dublin bus.

First it shouldn't be happening, but here is why it does happen, a bus arrives late the controller has to regulate it to get it back on schedule, so they should send it to a point along its route where it can take up its position start operating and arrive on time at its next terminus, but that means that the people along the start of that route will be skipped, if that happens a couple of times in a row or if there are big gaps between normal services or if the whole point of the route is the first part of it then the controller will ask the driver to operate the first part of the route then put the bus out of service and only drop off the passengers he has picked up, in the hope that it will be quicker get the bus to the next terminus on time but still have served people who have no other service etc.

There is no agreement for this it should not be happening, it is done with the best of intentions but all it does is mask a bad timetable and delay it being fixed, it may also be illegal for a scheduled bus to operate along a route but not collect passengers.

AlekSmart

cdebru wrote: »

First it shouldn't be happening, but here is why it does happen, a bus arrives late the controller has to regulate it to get it back on schedule, so they should send it to a point along its route where it can take up its position start operating and arrive on time at its next terminus, but that means that the people along the start of that route will be skipped, if that happens a couple of times in a row or if there are big gaps between normal services or if the whole point of the route is the first part of it then the controller will ask the driver to operate the first part of the route then put the bus out of service and only drop off the passengers he has picked up, in the hope that it will be quicker get the bus to the next terminus on time but still have served people who have no other service etc.

There is no agreement for this it should not be happening, it is done with the best of intentions but all it does is mask a bad timetable and delay it being fixed, it may also be illegal for a scheduled bus to operate along a route but not collect passengers.

Total agreement here....This carry-on SHOULD NOT BE HAPPENING.

However,cdebru has explained it comprehensively indeed.

The problem with this situation is that it's use has now become regular and across many routes,with significant knock-on effects such as RTPI conflicts,as the original journey is left in-the-system,but an O-O-S bus shows up.

Added to this,is the increased risk exposure as Busdrivers attempt to disembark passengers short of,or after Bus-Stops,which often leads to running,door-banging and associated unpleasantness.

The core problem is one of capacity and operational mayhem associated with virtually non-existent Traffic Management in the City Centre particularly.

Clearways,for example,are a concept widely deployed throughout Dublin,however they depend entirely upon enforcement for their effectiveness,with such enforcement,I would suggest,invisible.

The lack of on-the-ground Traffic Law enforcement in the GDA is contributing to the steady worsening of the City's Traffic Management reality.

The Authorities currently oversee a traditional Traffic Law enforcement,largely unchanged since the 1950's,with an almost 100% requirement for manual operation.

In the interim,digital and automated systems have now been in place for decades which could very effectively manage and enforce the "greater-good" Road Traffic Laws.

Yet,for reasons largely to do with operational juristiction turf-wars,none of the various agencies will cede a millimetre of their turf,even in the Public Interest.

The most glaring example of this currently,is the "Garda Enforcement" of the College Green Bus Gate,surely one of the most glaringly obvious wastes of supposedly scarce Garda Manpower Rescources visible.

A pair of mobile ANPR gantries,along with the current LED warnings and a €100+2 Point per infringement Fixed-Penalty would not only sort the issue out,whilst allowing the fine-revenue to be directed back into the Public Transport pot.

So many locations exist throughout the GDA,where ANPR/CCTV technology could operate very successfully indeed,however it seems it will take somebody like Denis O Brien to spot the opportunity and act upon it....In the meantime Bus Passengers and others will simply have to sit and watch numptys sitting on Yellow Boxes and Double Yellows et al cos there's no Gardai available to gently explain the meaning of these items to the driver concerned.....;)

Addressing at least some of these issues would at least allow for a smoother running public transport option,and therefore no need for this "Kinda Not in Service" carry on now becoming so visible.

dubscottie

This BTF film from London in the 70's should explain why buses go out of service to fill gaps elsewhere…

Its old but the same still happens today as has been mentioned already..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyL5Q9v5hfU&spfreload=10

dubscottie

AlekSmart wrote: »

The most glaring example of this currently,is the "Garda Enforcement" of the College Green Bus Gate,surely one of the most glaringly obvious wastes of supposedly scarce Garda Manpower Rescources visible.

A pair of mobile ANPR gantries,along with the current LED warnings and a €100+2 Point per infringement Fixed-Penalty would not only sort the issue out,whilst allowing the fine-revenue to be directed back into the Public Transport pot.

Yes so the ANPR catches the reg plate.. I get a fine and claim I was not driving.. How are they to prove it.. Case thrown out in court..

And before you say take a pic of the driver.. Civil liberties would have a field day..

braddun

call the inspector of the route

AlekSmart

dubscottie wrote: »

Yes so the ANPR catches the reg plate.. I get a fine and claim I was not driving.. How are they to prove it.. Case thrown out in court..

And before you say take a pic of the driver.. Civil liberties would have a field day..

Pretty much the same way NTR manages to struggle along with the West-Link tolls......

However,you do underline my point of why so much is unattainable in modern Ireland,we have little stomach as a culture for enforcement....of anything

cdebru

dubscottie wrote: »

Yes so the ANPR catches the reg plate.. I get a fine and claim I was not driving.. How are they to prove it.. Case thrown out in court..

And before you say take a pic of the driver.. Civil liberties would have a field day..

Hmm you are aware of the toll on the M50 and how it works ? Or the speed detection vans, the issue recently with them was because they are a private company and the chain of evidence not with the actual process and didn't affect the Garda operated vans, so there is no problem with an automated system rather than the waste of garda resources placing Gardai to police the bus gate while open drug dealing is happening just yards away.

L1011

dubscottie wrote: »

Yes so the ANPR catches the reg plate.. I get a fine and claim I was not driving.. How are they to prove it.. Case thrown out in court..

And before you say take a pic of the driver.. Civil liberties would have a field day..

The same way speeding fines and M50 tolls don't get thrown out of court

cython

dubscottie wrote: »

Yes so the ANPR catches the reg plate.. I get a fine and claim I was not driving.. How are they to prove it.. Case thrown out in court..

And before you say take a pic of the driver.. Civil liberties would have a field day..

Out of curiosity, why do you think the bolded? Speed cameras can already provide a picture of the driver in most cases, so why should this be any different? You're already on various CCTV cameras driving through the city centre, and the cameras mounted atop some traffic lights (even if not used for RLJ enforcement) will also probably get both your reg and some detail of the driver's face. Why should this be special?

jayobray

Just getting back on topic, I've noticed a couple of times the 84x going past Greystones DART station as not in service' with passengers on board on its way to Kilcoole/Newcastle, so as to avoid picking up in Greystones. I'll definitely complain the next time.

trellheim

mmm. Is it legal for an OOS bus to have paying passengers aboard ? What do the conditions of carriage say ? Is skip-stopping and deliberate OOS against the license for the route from the NTA

cdebru

trellheim wrote: »

mmm. Is it legal for an OOS bus to have paying passengers aboard ? What do the conditions of carriage say ? Is skip-stopping and deliberate OOS against the license for the route from the NTA

I believe it may well be.

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

mmm. Is it legal for an OOS bus to have paying passengers aboard ? What do the conditions of carriage say ? Is skip-stopping and deliberate OOS against the license for the route from the NTA

cdebru wrote: »

I believe it may well be.

Let's be realistic here - would you prefer that the bus be cancelled altogether?


There has to be some flexibility in operations in order to get buses back on schedule where major disruption takes place.

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

Let's be realistic here - would you prefer that the bus be cancelled altogether?


There has to be some flexibility in operations in order to get buses back on schedule where major disruption takes place.

No the bus should collect passengers along the entire route or part of route it is servicing, taking a bus out of service whilst still having passengers on is bad practice and increases the risk of passenger accidents and incidents.
This has become daily practice on some routes so the problem is a poor timetable and this practice just masks the problem and delays further the proper addressing of the issue.
Like I said it is done with the best of intentions, and I understand why it is done, but that doesn't make it right or good practice. There are other options, like transfering passengers to other services, curtailing the route so it only operates to a point where passengers can avail of other services. Letiing the bus operate the full route and regulating it at the next terminus,

trellheim

Let's be realistic here - would you prefer that the bus be cancelled altogether?


There has to be some flexibility in operations in order to get buses back on schedule where major disruption takes place.

If you are operating against the license what does it matter, the same argument could be used to change anything at all. I see your point, of course, but any private operator/interested party could take a case for different standards being applied. So if there is flexibility needed it must be within the operating parameters allowed by the contract ..... or how do you think it should work

xper

lxflyer wrote: »

Let's be realistic here - would you prefer that the bus be cancelled altogether?

There has to be some flexibility in operations in order to get buses back on schedule where major disruption takes place.

If you're left standing at the bus stop as it passes Out of Service, the bus has effectively been cancelled. I'd much prefer if it turned up 10 minutes late (and I'd still know it was coming with RTPI) than drive past me. I fully understand why this action is practiced but it appears it is being heavily abused by DB in some cases. I don't think it is appropriate to use it when the route frequency is very low or the following scheduled bus is also heavily delayed.

I moved residence earlier this year and have had the stark experience of shifting from the 46A/145 catchment (where you could effectively step out the door in peak time without even consulting RTPI) to the middle of the 7 route. I could easily deal with the lower frequency here if the route remotely stuck to the timetable but it is clearly not fit for purpose with massive gaps, ghost buses on RTPI and buses running OOS a daily occurrence to the point that I have effectively abandoned it and either cycle or get up earlier and walk a mile to get a 46A that takes a longer route to my workplace but which I at least know will turn up and stop for me.

I can accept this ad hoc route management if it is exceptional and actually restores a disrupted service quickly but when it is a part of daily operations over months to the point that it destroys the timetable and just appears to cause knock-on negative effects, it is unacceptable that DB/NTA/whoever (therein lies the problem) don't amend the route resources and scheduling to actually deliver the advertised service.

(Btw, Happy Christmas! What am I doing here anyway, time for another Irish coffee ... )

AlekSmart

xper wrote: »

I moved residence earlier this year and have had the stark experience of shifting from the 46A/145 catchment (where you could effectively step out the door in peak time without even consulting RTPI) to the middle of the 7 route. I could easily deal with the lower frequency here if the route remotely stuck to the timetable but it is clearly not fit for purpose with massive gaps, ghost buses on RTPI and buses running OOS a daily occurrence to the point that I have effectively abandoned it and either cycle or get up earlier and walk a mile to get a 46A that takes a longer route to my workplace but which I at least know will turn up and stop for me.

I can accept this ad hoc route management if it is exceptional and actually restores a disrupted service quickly but when it is a part of daily operations over months to the point that it destroys the timetable and just appears to cause knock-on negative effects, it is unacceptable that DB/NTA/whoever (therein lies the problem) don't amend the route resources and scheduling to actually deliver the advertised service.

(Btw, Happy Christmas! What am I doing here anyway, time for another Irish coffee ... )

MMMmmmm Xper,I'll have one too,if you are offering.....;)

The secnario you describe for the 7 route,was in no small way responsible for the eventual demise of the 45 to Bray.....even if those involved still refuse to see it....The epitaph on the 45's Gravestone......"Blank it out when ye get to Blackrock"
........:o

KD345

As a passenger, it is one of the most frustrating things to happen. It's a regular occurrence on the 7 and has been for years, although drivers there seem to prefer 'Private Hire' as the display. The difference now is that passengers can not only see it count down on the screens and app, but as the bus passes by, you can see the route and destination displayed internally on the screens.

I understand why these things happen, but the fact that it's been happening on some routes such as the 7 for so long is unforgivable. If I was a driver on the 4, I wouldn't be too happy, as they very often seem to be the ones clearing the road from Merrion/Ballsbridge inbound.

There's a lot of fares to be collected on the short journey between Ballsbridge and Parnell Square, but that doesn't seem to matter. Overcrowded buses, scheduled arrivals not picking up passengers, and gaps of up to 30 minutes on a busy corridor will never attract anybody to use the bus.

NCD

As a Coach driver working in Dublin I Have no hesitation in saying that the Garda presence at collage green has been the most effective traffic management in Dublin for years, I Hope this typeof hands on visible

NCD

As a Coach driver working in Dublin I Have no hesitation in saying that the Garda presence at collage green has been the most effective traffic management in Dublin for years, I Hope this type of hands on visible hands on approach could be expanded, The presence of just this one Garda even brought some control over the Taxi Drivers preventing total mayhem...

AlekSmart

NCD wrote: »

As a Coach driver working in Dublin I Have no hesitation in saying that the Garda presence at collage green has been the most effective traffic management in Dublin for years, I Hope this type of hands on visible hands on approach could be expanded, The presence of just this one Garda even brought some control over the Taxi Drivers preventing total mayhem...

The problem is that the Gardai do not have the resources to guarantee anything like this level of enforcement throughout the year.

The simple,affordable,profitable,and at this stage,technically mundane answer is CCTV,Camera Monitored Operation dispensing automatic €100 fixed-penalties to each offender.

NCD

Alex Yes Cameras certainly do work, and are badly needed here in Dublin particularly focused on Bus Lanes, However the response to Garda presence at Collage Green has had a huge impact on the behaviour of all road users including Cyclists and in particular Taxi Drivers whose behaviour around Collage Green can be staggering, The presence of this one Garda has had a huge positive impact, Perhaps such a presence could be could be duplicated on a rolling Bascis throughout the City,

AlekSmart

NCD wrote: »

Alex Yes Cameras certainly do work, and are badly needed here in Dublin particularly focused on Bus Lanes, However the response to Garda presence at Collage Green has had a huge impact on the behaviour of all road users including Cyclists and in particular Taxi Drivers whose behaviour around Collage Green can be staggering, The presence of this one Garda has had a huge positive impact, Perhaps such a presence could be could be duplicated on a rolling Bascis throughout the City,

Agreed,however this behavioural adjustment only lasts for as long as those Gardai are in position. (One Garda at either side of the B/G).

Additionally,the Physical Garda presence can also be counter-productive,when individual drivers "Try-It-On" with "I'm from the Country" or "I never noticed any signs" or "My wife's having a babby" etc etc etc.

Quite often the Gardai concerned are required to go through the "Community Policing" twaddle by slowly and meticulously explaining to drivers what the Big Yellow LED Signs actually mean,whilst folowing traffic then has to sit and await the completion of this lesson.

It is VERY rare to see a Garda produce a notebook to take details at these locations,so I would suggest that the Physical Garda presence is costing an arm & a leg....Automate the damn thing and ensure that the transgressors ALL Pay for the benefit of ignoring the signs....that's how Denis O'Brien would do it !!!! :eek:

The Taxi issue is IMO,totally seperate and far more wide ranging.

cdebru

AlekSmart wrote: »

Agreed,however this behavioural adjustment only lasts for as long as those Gardai are in position. (One Garda at either side of the B/G).

Additionally,the Physical Garda presence can also be counter-productive,when individual drivers "Try-It-On" with "I'm from the Country" or "I never noticed any signs" or "My wife's having a babby" etc etc etc.

Quite often the Gardai concerned are required to go through the "Community Policing" twaddle by slowly and meticulously explaining to drivers what the Big Yellow LED Signs actually mean,whilst folowing traffic then has to sit and await the completion of this lesson.

It is VERY rare to see a Garda produce a notebook to take details at these locations,so I would suggest that the Physical Garda presence is costing an arm & a leg....Automate the damn thing and ensure that the transgressors ALL Pay for the benefit of ignoring the signs....that's how Denis O'Brien would do it !!!! :eek:

The Taxi issue is IMO,totally seperate and far more wide ranging.

All haha this is Ireland any minor celebrity wouldn't have to pay, neither would the Garda commissioner, sunday newspaper editors, relatives and friends of Gardai etc etc

devnull

KD345 wrote: »

As a passenger, it is one of the most frustrating things to happen. It's a regular occurrence on the 7 and has been for years, although drivers there seem to prefer 'Private Hire' as the display. The difference now is that passengers can not only see it count down on the screens and app, but as the bus passes by, you can see the route and destination displayed internally on the screens.

I understand why these things happen, but the fact that it's been happening on some routes such as the 7 for so long is unforgivable. If I was a driver on the 4, I wouldn't be too happy, as they very often seem to be the ones clearing the road from Merrion/Ballsbridge inbound. .

Also there was frequently 7's bypassing stops if the number of passengers waiting at the stop was more than the space on the bus, even if there were say 20 seats on the bus, you'd see 40 people waiting at the stop so the bus wouldn't stop.

I took the 4/7 for 2-3 years, and it was quite obvious that this was the case, along with your observations and the pressure was always on the 4 to sort this out. Then they cut the frequency of the 4 just after removing the bendy buses, and it was not uncommon to see 4-5 buses go past full on that corridor.

At that point, I along with others switched back to the car.