agreeing to adverse possession

Joshua5

Hi Folks,

This has been bouncing around a bit and the situation has changed so I'm looking to know if anyone has had experience with this situation before.

A local family had a house, the father died in 1950 and the property was transferred informally throughout various family members, the last person in the house was a niece of the original owner and she passed away in 2007. The deeds are still registered in the house of the main man in 1950's.

The family, and extended family planned to claim adverse possession to 'fix' the issues around the title but one thing has led to another and now they don't want too. They've offered the property to me, it has really no value or very little and they don't want the cost of the legal fees to follow through on adverse possession.

I read that the time can be passed to the next party so if they are willing to pass it to me do I still need to wait 12 years to claim possession or has it already accumulated. Basically they are the distant relatives and although they are not on the deeds of the unregistered property they could potentially stake a claim in the property but they had been advised to go through adverse possession to resolve the title issue.

Therefore if they agree to surrender their adverse possession to me can I still proceed to take the title? Just to emphasis they want me to take the property! They want to spend no time or money sorting the title and they want it to go away in the easiest way possible.

Happdog

The family cannot pass on the baton for adverse possession, indeed there is no evidence as far as I can see for any claim of adverse possession either now or in the past.

The property has passed down within the family and it is merely uncertain who has good title. For adverse possession to occur the true owner has to be dispossessed.

The possession must be adverse to the true owners of the property. It is not clear who are the true owners are.

What has to happen here is that the family sorts out title via a solicitor and they then sell you the property.

If they are the owners you CANNOT adversely possession the property with their permission. Adverse possession is not the issue here and nor is it the solution.

MarkAnthony

There's a bone sticking out of my leg. It's not really hurting and I'm thinking of wandering around on it for a few days - I'm wondering if anyone can advise?

I'm sorry to be flippant but this is exactly how your posts are coming across. You've been told on numerous occasions now to seek legal advice. I'll reiterate that here and try to add something as to why.

Land Law is extremely complex and you have a relatively complex issue. You need professional advice. I have covered off land law t undergrad level and I still wouldn't have a clue how to approach this even given all the facts. I know solicitors and barristers not working in the area that wouldn't be able to advise either.

From what little information you've given here no AP has ever accrued. If the property has been passed 'informally' then permission has been given. If the property is empty move in and gis us a shout in 2027.

The reason why solicitors have probably told you they can't help is you may be coming across as more trouble than you're worth. Research what firms specialise in this area and get in contact with one of them. It sounds now as all that need to happen is figure out who is the owner of the property officially through wills and intestacy. You may then face an AP issue if you want someone out who doesn't have permission to be there, but from what you've said that doesn't seem likely.

IF the situation is one of figuring out ownership then you might be able to progress it, simply start researching the wills etc it's not even that long a period.

plodder

There's an interesting article for the lay-person on adverse possession here:

The legal maze of squatter's rights laid bare

It should give you some idea of what you'd have to do and the risks involved. But, I'd echo the posts above. You would be crazy to contemplate doing anything at all, without getting professional advice.

Pat Mustard

Joshua5 wrote: »

I read that the time can be passed to the next party so if they are willing to pass it to me do I still need to wait 12 years to claim possession or has it already accumulated.

Link:

14. Possession claimed by successive squatters

14.1. Successive Squatters
Successive squatters can between them make up the full statutory period (see Asher v. Whitlock 1865 L.R. 1 Q.B.1), e.g. if A is in possession for three years and transfers to B who enters and continues for nine years B acquires. However, in the absence of a Transfer, B could only rely on his own possession.

Joshua5

MarkAnthony wrote: »

There's a bone sticking out of my leg. It's not really hurting and I'm thinking of wandering around on it for a few days - I'm wondering if anyone can advise?

I'm sorry to be flippant but this is exactly how your posts are coming across. You've been told on numerous occasions now to seek legal advice. I'll reiterate that here and try to add something as to why.

Land Law is extremely complex and you have a relatively complex issue. You need professional advice. I have covered off land law t undergrad level and I still wouldn't have a clue how to approach this even given all the facts. I know solicitors and barristers not working in the area that wouldn't be able to advise either.

From what little information you've given here no AP has ever accrued. If the property has been passed 'informally' then permission has been given. If the property is empty move in and gis us a shout in 2027.

The reason why solicitors have probably told you they can't help is you may be coming across as more trouble than you're worth. Research what firms specialise in this area and get in contact with one of them. It sounds now as all that need to happen is figure out who is the owner of the property officially through wills and intestacy. You may then face an AP issue if you want someone out who doesn't have permission to be there, but from what you've said that doesn't seem likely.

IF the situation is one of figuring out ownership then you might be able to progress it, simply start researching the wills etc it's not even that long a period.

Hey there, I've spoken to numerous solicitors. They all scratch their heads and have no idea how to proceed. There doesn't seem to be one who specialises in the area. I want the house, I just don't know how to get it even though they want me to have it. The most I get from a solicitor is occupy the house and see how it goes or get the family to sort the title (They really don't want the hassle).

There is more reason to me wanting the house than just financial gain or anything of the sorts. If I occupy the house it needs immediate attention so who's to say one of the potential owners who doesn't want it now dies and their extended family comes for their share. It's a complete mess and I don't know where to begin because the 'specialists' also have no idea.

Be as flippant as you like, I've spoken to so many firms now. The money is not an object if they can give me a some solution Im more than happy to pay once I'm protected. I'd rather just buy it to be honest but you can't buy it until the deeds are sorted and supposedly the best way to sort the deeds is adverse possession in this case as quoted by the firms.

As for coming across as more trouble than I'm worth, I don't get that comment. Seeking information on a legal issue from legal firms is hardly classed as coming across as trouble. The family want to offload, it's a simple as that and I have reasons to want to acquire it.

It was the families solicitor that advised them of adverse possession and that they are entitled to claim it at this stage. I'm pretty sure the time can be passed from one claimant to the other to make the statutory 12 years.

MarkAnthony

The Mustard has cleared that up for you. It was niggling at the back of my head that you could but the issue is that I don't think AP has ever accrued given that it looks like permission has been granted each time.

I'm sorry but there will be firms (probably based in Dublin) that will be able to help. Don't put forward your theories, just let them know the facts and let them go from there. You will almost certainly be employing a specialist barrister also so expect a reasonable fee.

I understand where you're coming from. My frustration is that this isn't really going to help. That said it's a very interesting problem so I'll shut up and let you keep us updated.

Have at the lawlibrary website for people that specialise in land law. Suggest to a local solicitor that you want them to engage that person or person they know who is good in the area. That might help convince them you're serious.

Best of luck!

Joshua5

MarkAnthony wrote: »

The Mustard has cleared that up for you. It was niggling at the back of my head that you could but the issue is that I don't think AP has ever accrued given that it looks like permission has been granted each time.

I'm sorry but there will be firms (probably based in Dublin) that will be able to help. Don't put forward your theories, just let them know the facts and let them go from there. You will almost certainly be employing a specialist barrister also so expect a reasonable fee.

I understand where you're coming from. My frustration is that this isn't really going to help. That said it's a very interesting problem so I'll shut up and let you keep us updated.

Have at the lawlibrary website for people that specialise in land law. Suggest to a local solicitor that you want them to engage that person or person they know who is good in the area. That might help convince them you're serious.

Best of luck!

Good advice, I'm just wondering though. Let's say the family solicitor is correct and their is an adverse possession claim on their behalf. Let's just assume that for a moment and it has passed through these people.

Assuming this, the lady that died gave all to her sibling (Would this include her rights to AP) and her sibling is now offering possession to me (She would technically be the latest person to AP) so in a general way since the 12 years have passed by 50 or so years and I come in at the end with their permission to take AP over I could technically apply, easily show successive AP rights.

Plus it's not going to be contested because they are probably the people to be notified as the potential owners, everyone's a winner!

In saying that, how can someone who potentially is the owner claim AP if they could trace back the unregistered land themselves...

Joshua5

The Mustard wrote: »

Link:

I wonder, if someone has the property for 50 years can they pass AP to another person then or does it work on the flip side that you must have been in possession during the 12 years and not after it?

MarkAnthony

I think this is the route of your issue. I'm not convinced there is AP in the first place. If there is as per The Mustards post a solicitor will advise on how to transfer it to you. That said it seems they are unwilling to engage otherwise why wouldn't they just claim AP and pass clean title to you?

How you official transfer AP or if AP transfers on death like other inheritance rights is a very interesting question I can't begin to answer.

Joshua5

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I think this is the route of your issue. I'm not convinced there is AP in the first place. If there is as per The Mustards post a solicitor will advise on how to transfer it to you. That said it seems they are unwilling to engage otherwise why wouldn't they just claim AP and pass clean title to you?

So basically in short they had engaged a solicitor, he advised them of AP is their only option for a clean title. I don't know how true this is, then the house burned downed by vandals and Dublin City council stepped in to put it on the dangerous building register and are looking to impose fines.

Between the solicitor fees and the potential of fines from DCC they want to wash their hands of the matter. I suggested I continue the case with the original solicitor but he's not willing to reopen the case because of unsettled bills so it's starting from fresh again.

It's a total mess really, even with all parties willing it appears it might just be impossible!

schemingbohemia

Joshua5 wrote: »

Hi Folks,

This has been bouncing around a bit and the situation has changed so I'm looking to know if anyone has had experience with this situation before.

A local family had a house, the father died in 1950 and the property was transferred informally throughout various family members, the last person in the house was a niece of the original owner and she passed away in 2007. The deeds are still registered in the house of the main man in 1950's.

The family, and extended family planned to claim adverse possession to 'fix' the issues around the title but one thing has led to another and now they don't want too. They've offered the property to me, it has really no value or very little and they don't want the cost of the legal fees to follow through on adverse possession.

I read that the time can be passed to the next party so if they are willing to pass it to me do I still need to wait 12 years to claim possession or has it already accumulated. Basically they are the distant relatives and although they are not on the deeds of the unregistered property they could potentially stake a claim in the property but they had been advised to go through adverse possession to resolve the title issue.

Therefore if they agree to surrender their adverse possession to me can I still proceed to take the title? Just to emphasis they want me to take the property! They want to spend no time or money sorting the title and they want it to go away in the easiest way possible.

What's changed since your last thread on this?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=93399642

MarkAnthony

Joshua5 wrote: »

So basically in short they had engaged a solicitor, he advised them of AP is their only option for a clean title. I don't know how true this is, then the house burned downed by vandals and Dublin City council stepped in to put it on the dangerous building register and are looking to impose fines.

Between the solicitor fees and the potential of fines from DCC they want to wash their hands of the matter. I suggested I continue the case with the original solicitor but he's not willing to reopen the case because of unsettled bills so it's starting from fresh again.

It's a total mess really, even with all parties willing it appears it might just be impossible!

Their might be an unsettled bill but that suggests work done, why not settle the bill and be further along?

Joshua5

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Their might be an unsettled bill but that suggests work done, why not settle the bill and be further along?

They said they don't want to pay anything or get involved further. I have spoken to their solicitor, he said it was nearly wrapped up until the fire and they stopped contact and he never got paid.

I've asked the question to him if I can settle the bill and engage him but he's not really that interested. He words where I hope I never hear of XXX ever again!

Joshua5

schemingbohemia wrote: »

What's changed since your last thread on this?

Plenty

Pat Mustard

Joshua5 wrote: »

I wonder, if someone has the property for 50 years can they pass AP to another person then or does it work on the flip side that you must have been in possession during the 12 years and not after it?

Here is a link to a report on Asher v Whitlock, in which it was found to be possible to pass on squatters' rights.

I am surprised that you have been to see many solicitors and none of them knew how to handle this type of work. It might be boring and time-consuming work but if you are prepared to pay for it, there should be many solicitors who are capable of the work.

Joshua5

The Mustard wrote: »

Here is a link to a report on Asher v Whitlock, in which it was found to be possible to pass on squatters' rights.

I am surprised that you have been to see many solicitors and none of them knew how to handle this type of work. It might be boring and time-consuming work but if you are prepared to pay for it, there should be many solicitors who are capable of the work.

I know, I kid you not. The best one I had was only this morning and he said, I could look into it, its complicated and it won't be cheap. I said no problem and his response was I'm actually not sure I'd be interested in this because it would be a very boring case with far too much admin.

I've also asked if AP is not an option, if they won't sort the title to sell could they as the next of kin agree to a lifetime lease that all parties can sign. They couldn't even answer that.

Pat Mustard

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0027/sec0014.html#sec14

14.— The grant of a lease for—
(a) a life or lives,
(b) a life or lives combined with a concurrent or reversionary term of any period,
(c) any term coming to an end on the death of a person or persons,
and any contract for such a grant made after the commencement of this Part is void both at law and in equity.

Nobody can advise you without taking all of the details of the property and carrying out various Land Registry searches etc. You will have to consider why none of the many solicitors that you have met will accept your particular case, because this type of work is done all of the time.

Joshua5

The Mustard wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0027/sec0014.html#sec14


Nobody can advise you without taking all of the details of the property and carrying out various Land Registry searches etc. You will have to consider why none of the many solicitors that you have met will accept your particular case, because this type of work is done all of the time.

thanks, it rules that out anyway :-(

Mr. Incognito

The last thread was a train wreck.

This thread is a train wreck,

Go pay someone for proper structured advice you can rely on