Albert Speer

Sugar Thief

Should he have been hanged, I contend that yes, he should have, he directly contributed to the murder of millions of innocent civilians.

The Moldy Gowl

Wut? Who?

Skylinehead

He certainly knew more than he let on, but probably not the whole story. Although the forced labour was another thing.

qt3.14

Being minister for war production is hardly direct responsibility anymore than the overseer in a panzer factory is responsible for the deaths caused by what he produces.

kneemos

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Wut? Who?

Invented the spear.

Tipsy McSwagger

Isn't there a bench there dedicated to Arthur Fowler?

testicle

He was an architect. How did he directly contribute to murder??

DarkyHughes

qt3.14 wrote: »

Being minister for war production is hardly direct responsibility anymore than the overseer in a panzer factory is responsible for the deaths caused by what he produces.

Or the the Nazi's who ordered the deaths.

Omackeral

Read that as Albert Square expecting an Eastenders article. Then got no article at all.

Banjo String

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Isn't there a bench there dedicated to Arthur Fowler?

To Arthur !!!

If you're valuable enough to your enemies you'll probably escape persecution.

Wernher von Braun went from inventing rockets to flatten london to being the brains behind the NASA appolo missions.

TerrorFirmer

testicle wrote: »

He was an architect. How did he directly contribute to murder??

He was Minister for War Production in Nazi Germany towards the end of the war.

He was a very gifted man and under his leadership German production levels rose dramatically - right up until the end of the war German efficiency increased in tank and weapon production. Had he been minister for production far sooner, it would have made a difference.

However, Germany used slave labour extensively and in dreadful conditions.

He also devised a plot to kill Hitler in 1945.

Phoebas

testicle wrote: »

He was an architect. How did he directly contribute to murder??

He was minister in charge of war production and he used forced labour. Many of his forced labourers were worked to death.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Te good Nazi

shamrock55

Came across as a nice lad i always thought, nice mannerly young man.

flunkyfearsome

The Americans and the Russians got the brightest and intelligent of the Nazi to work for them post WW2, they certainly did not give a fig what they did during WW2,The English also to a certain aspect as well.

Gmol

Wasn't he one of the Speers from ballybunion?

corner of hells

flunkyfearsome wrote: »

The Americans and the Russians got the brightest and intelligent of the Nazi to work for them post WW2, they certainly did not give a fig what they did during WW2,The English also to a certain aspect as well.

Albert mustnt have been that smart , so.He spent twenty years in Spandau.

flunkyfearsome

corner of hells wrote: »

Albert mustnt have been that smart , so.He spent twenty years in Spandau.

Ballet ?

Gmol

corner of hells wrote: »

Albert mustnt have been that smart , so.He spent twenty years in Spandau.

Where he met the Kemp brothers and the rest is history

flunkyfearsome

Gmol wrote: »

Where he met the Kemp brothers and the rest is history

Through the barricade's

JaseBelleVie

Operation: Paperclip used rocket scientists and stuff more than it did architects. Werner von Braun and so on. The space race would not have even existed were it not for the Nazi scientists who worked for both the Americans and the Soviets after the War. You can be damn sure, if Heinrich Himmler had been a rocket scientist as well as the head of the SS, he would have been pardoned and worked for NASA or the Soviet space programme.

kingchess

cisk wrote: »

If you're valuable enough to your enemies you'll probably escape persecution.

Wernher von Braun went from inventing rockets to flatten london to being the brains behind the NASA appolo missions.

True,He aimed for the stars, but sometimes he hit London:D

corner of hells

Gmol wrote: »

Where he met the Kemp brothers and the rest is history

flunkyfearsome wrote: »

Ballet ?

flunkyfearsome wrote: »

Through the barricade's

GOLD.

Wibbs

cisk wrote: »

If you're valuable enough to your enemies you'll probably escape persecution.

Wernher von Braun went from inventing rockets to flatten london to being the brains behind the NASA appolo missions.

Yep and he oversaw slave labour in the camps that made his V2 rockets. Full member of the Nazi party too(he later claimed he had to be to continue his work, but his superior in the programme didn't join). To this day some US documents about him remain secret. A useful Nazi was a "good" nazi it seemed.

Jawgap

He dreamt of building a Germany that would rule Europe that would dictate matters to all countries in Europe, even 'neutral' Ireland. If he'd had his way we might not all be speaking German, but we'd all be answering to Berlin - although we'd still have a token government here with the powers of a county council.......


........thank God they lost the War and that never happened

flunkyfearsome

Wibbs wrote: »

Yep and he oversaw slave labour in the camps that made his V2 rockets. Full member of the Nazi party too(he later claimed he had to be to continue his work, but his superior in the programme didn't join). To this day some US documents about him remain secret. A useful Nazi was a "good" nazi it seemed.

Yep I looked at something on history channel about NASA and Soviet spacerace and it confirmed the use of certain Nazi personnel in the spacerace.

lazybones32

Sugar Thief wrote: »

Should he have been hanged, I contend that yes, he should have, he directly contributed to the murder of millions of innocent civilians.

Should Hitler's Parents have been hanged too...seeing as they directly contributed to death. Hang the scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project too...car manufacturers, rope makers...

Jawgap

Jawgap wrote: »

He dreamt of building a Germany that would rule Europe that would dictate matters to all countries in Europe, even 'neutral' Ireland. If he'd had his way we might not all be speaking German, but we'd all be answering to Berlin - although we'd still have a token government here with the powers of a county council.......


........thank God they lost the War and that never happened

:pac:

Sheldons Brain

JaseHeath wrote: »

, if Heinrich Himmler had been a rocket scientist as well as the head of the SS, he would have been pardoned and worked for NASA or the Soviet space programme.

If Heinrich Himmler had been a rocket scientist, the Germans would have won the war and the Russians would have been working for the German space programme.

Jawgap

lazybones32 wrote: »

Should Hitler's Parents have been hanged too...seeing as they directly contributed to death. Hang the scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project too...car manufacturers, rope makers...

Hitler's Dad died in 1903 and his mother in 1907.

However, his brother moved here and married a Dowling - maybe we should hunt them down.

Speer deserved harsher punishment for his use of conscripted slave labour, and the use of underground factories and starvation rations. His guilt went beyond mere association.

DarkyHughes

Wibbs wrote: »

Yep and he oversaw slave labour in the camps that made his V2 rockets. Full member of the Nazi party too(he later claimed he had to be to continue his work, but his superior in the programme didn't join). To this day some US documents about him remain secret. A useful Nazi was a "good" nazi it seemed.

And it's the same up to this very day. The US were best buddies with Saddam until he stopped being useful to them.

Tail Docker

He was alright. Bit slow to get his round in tho, and anyone getting paired with him in a darts match was fecked. Useless.

Sand

There's been more recent research about Speer that his production miracle wasn't as miraculous as it first seemed. In the middle of a war, Speer was very aware that the soldiers and people needed to believe there was an armaments miracle going on in 1942 that could yet deliver victory. So one occurred, right on schedule. The "armaments miracle" was a deliberate propaganda plan, and later a self serving myth by a man eager to save his own skin and present himself as a genius.

Its assumed Germany didn't go on a total war footing until Speer took over. That's not true: Germany was running a total war economy from the late 1930s onwards. In 1942/1943 Speer was the beneficiary of immense production investments made by his predecessors in 1940-1941 coming on line. He also benefited from vastly more money, labour and raw materials looted from occupied countries that simply weren't available in 1939-1941. Inputs went up, outputs went up. No miracle.

Germany did make some efficiency gains, by locking in production of large numbers of obsolete aircraft like the Bf-109 which was a good fighter in 1939-1940 but a death trap in 1943. Speer similarly introduced new methods of production for the XXI submarines, with parts being made offsite and fitted together at the dock. It was revolutionary, and a disaster. 80 submarines were delivered by the end of 1944. Not a single one was fit for operations due to leaks, hull fractures, steering errors and so on. By the end of the war, only 2 of these miracle weapons went to war, and none of them scored a kill.

Speer himself is often presented as a non-political technician, who was given a job and did it as best he could without asking questions. This doesn't seem true either - he joined the Nazi party in 1931, when it was still out of power. He quickly ingratiated himself with the Nazi inner circle and exploited his links with party figures. He was well aware of slave labour and the conditions that existed in his factories, he just chose to ignore it.

dirtyden

Very good post Sand.

He was quite an interesting character Speer, and not in a good kind of interesting away. From what I have read he always seemed to have bought completely in to the Nazi ideology, but quickly tried to wash his hands of responsibility when Germany fell. This gives the impression that he used national socialism as a tool to improve his own fortunes and was not an idealist.

Karl Stein

He loved kittens and puppies so he couldn't have been all that bad.

The Diabolical Monocle

what do you think of the random thing.

i know all about it therefore you should too automatically.

heres absolutely no details.

ClovenHoof

He was an aristocrat. They do not hang their own...

Wurzelbert

Sugar Thief wrote: »

Should he have been hanged, I contend that yes, he should have, he directly contributed to the murder of millions of innocent civilians.

speer was a technocrat and took desperate measures in desperate times...there was no room for consideration and pleasantries in 44/45 and i see no reason why he should have been hanged. the whole nuremberg trials were really just a "victor's justice" farce anyway...

kowloon

Sand wrote: »

There's been more recent research about Speer

Remember the sources? (Out of interest, not disbelief)

biko

Fooking celeb threads...

Tony EH

cisk wrote: »

If you're valuable enough to your enemies you'll probably escape persecution.

Wernher von Braun went from inventing rockets to flatten london to being the brains behind the NASA appolo missions.

Building hi tech weaponry for your country isn't an "offence".

Tony EH

Sand wrote: »

Its assumed Germany didn't go on a total war footing until Speer took over. That's not true: Germany was running a total war economy from the late 1930s onwards. In 1942/1943 Speer was the beneficiary of immense production investments made by his predecessors in 1940-1941 coming on line. He also benefited from vastly more money, labour and raw materials looted from occupied countries that simply weren't available in 1939-1941. Inputs went up, outputs went up. No miracle.

While there was no "miracle", Germany certainly was not on a total war footing before 1943 and her industry was terribly inefficient. Even the British were outproducing them in fighter aircraft in 1940. Hitler stood down whole divisions in that year too. Factories were operating one shift a day and a lot of them were devoted to producing a single product. The fact is that the Reich's war economies were pretty terrible and Speer did a lot to bring them under control. Armaments output increased by a huge margin after Speer was given the job and it was carried out under the combined Allied bomber campaign too. It was certainly nothing to be scoffed at.

Sand wrote: »

Germany did make some efficiency gains, by locking in production of large numbers of obsolete aircraft like the Bf-109 which was a good fighter in 1939-1940 but a death trap in 1943.

This is so wrong, I don't know where to start.

While the BF109 was showing her age in 1943, she was far from obsolete and certainly not a "death trap" under any stretch of the imagination. Even in 1943, the heavier BF109G6 variant could hold her own against any allied fighter and her high altitude performance was often superior, even over the Jagdwaffe's other single engined fighter, the FW190 . The problem for 109 pilots, in the west anyhow, was that she was employed as a bomber killer and often strapped with two 20mm cannon under each wing in the BF109G6-R6 version, which had a very negative effect on her performance. The FW190, too, had been beefed up to deal with the heavy bombers in the FW190A8R2 version, which also had a detrimental effect on her flight capabilities.

However, what often decided the outcome of aerial battles was numbers and pilot skill and the Luftwaffe was always outnumbered and in 1943, her pilot skill was plummeting, due to reduced levels of training enforced by the need to replace pilots lost in 3+ years of campaigning.

Sand wrote: »

Speer similarly introduced new methods of production for the XXI submarines, with parts being made offsite and fitted together at the dock. It was revolutionary, and a disaster. 80 submarines were delivered by the end of 1944. Not a single one was fit for operations due to leaks, hull fractures, steering errors and so on. By the end of the war, only 2 of these miracle weapons went to war, and none of them scored a kill.

The Type XXI was a "disaster", not because of Speer, but because she was introduced too late in the war, she was incredibly ambitious, over engineered (like all German war machines) and production couldn't be devoted to her. Germany was forced to keep using the Type IX and VII, because the Type XXI simply wasn't ready. Also, considering that the country had been having ten shades bombed out of it, it IS a miracle that any Type XXI's were made at all, never mind the few that were actually sea worthy.

However, Speer's diversification of Germany's war industry managed to see her produce more tanks and SPGs in 1944 than any other year of the war and she produced more aircraft in that year too. 12,000+ BF109's alone.

He certainly had an impact of his country's production and to dismiss it ends up looking a bit silly.

dubscottie

Tony EH wrote: »

While there was no "miracle", Germany certainly was not on a total war footing before 1943 and her industry was terribly inefficient. Even the British were outproducing them in fighter aircraft in 1940. Hitler stood down whole divisions in that year too. Factories were operating one shift a day and a lot of them were devoted to producing a single product. The fact is that the Reich's war economies were pretty terrible and Speer did a lot to bring them under control. Armaments output increased by a huge margin after Speer was given the job and it was carried out under the combined Allied bomber campaign too. It was certainly nothing to be scoffed at.



This is so wrong, I don't know where to start.

While the BF109 was showing her age in 1943, she was far from obsolete and certainly not a "death trap" under any stretch of the imagination. Even in 1943, the heavier BF109G6 variant could hold her own against any allied fighter and her high altitude performance was often superior, even over the Jagdwaffe's other single engined fighter, the FW190 . The problem for 109 pilots, in the west anyhow, was that she was employed as a bomber killer and often strapped with two 20mm cannon under each wing in the BF109G6-R6 version, which had a very negative effect on her performance. The FW190, too, had been beefed up to deal with the heavy bombers in the FW190A8R2 version, which also had a detrimental effect on her flight capabilities.

However, what often decided the outcome of aerial battles was numbers and pilot skill and the Luftwaffe was always outnumbered and in 1943, her pilot skill was plummeting, due to reduced levels of training enforced by the need to replace pilots lost in 3+ years of campaigning.



The Type XXI was a "disaster", not because of Speer, but because she was introduced too late in the war, she was incredibly ambitious, over engineered (like all German war machines) and production couldn't be devoted to her. Germany was forced to keep using the Type IX and VII, because the Type XXI simply wasn't ready. Also, considering that the country had been having ten shades bombed out of it, it IS a miracle that any Type XXI's were made at all, never mind the few that were actually sea worthy.

However, Speer's diversification of Germany's war industry managed to see her produce more tanks and SPGs in 1944 than any other year of the war and she produced more aircraft in that year too. 12,000+ BF109's alone.

He certainly had an impact of his country's production and to dismiss it ends up looking a bit silly.

Don't forget the 1500+ ME 262's that were the world first jets regardless of what Britain or the US say.. (I know very little of them made it into the air)

The wing design was so good the US and USSR copied it and the fighters were almost the same in the Korean war..

Jawgap

dubscottie wrote: »

Don't forget the 1500+ ME 262's that were the world first jets regardless of what Britain or the US say.. (I know very little of them made it into the air)

The wing design was so good the US and USSR copied it and the fighters were almost the same in the Korean war..

You can have all the jets you want, but if you don't have the pilots and fuel to get them into the air, and run the training and conversion programmes they're just lawn ornaments.

The Allies had operational jet fighters and the reason weren't introduced into frontline service was because of the disruption operating two radically different technologies (jet and piston propulsion) would have caused in the logistic, maintenance and repair chains.

Finally, as good and all as the Me-262 design (and some of the others) was, the second Yeager flicked his trim switch in the X-1 to create the all-flying tail and make stable trans-sonic flight possible, the design became obsolete.

braddun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtHEuU50S8M

Jawgap

Tony EH wrote: »

While there was no "miracle", Germany certainly was not on a total war footing before 1943 and her industry was terribly inefficient. Even the British were outproducing them in fighter aircraft in 1940. Hitler stood down whole divisions in that year too. Factories were operating one shift a day and a lot of them were devoted to producing a single product. The fact is that the Reich's war economies were pretty terrible and Speer did a lot to bring them under control. Armaments output increased by a huge margin after Speer was given the job and it was carried out under the combined Allied bomber campaign too. It was certainly nothing to be scoffed at.



..........

We agree on something..........to a point

German labour force mobilisation certainly wouldn't indicate total war footing before 1943, and even then it's perhaps arguable it wasn't as 'total' as it could've been given the limited use made of female labour compared to the UK.

Speer did a lot to rationalise production, but they were constantly robbing Peter to pay Paul - skilled agricultural and mining labour was swept for service in the Wehrmacht, to be replaced by conscripted labour (who were less efficient); steel allocations were swapped around to meet constant emergency demands; luxury consumer goods continued to be produced long after the war started; a lot of equipment was over-engineered etc.

The supply chain was also unnecessarily complicated with components made on geographically disparate sites - something he rationalised to a degree but it never approached UK or US efficiency.

Speer was also pretty good at 'marketing' - giving tanks 'cool' names like 'Panther' instead of the 'Mark V' or Sd.Kfz. 171.