Drunken Builder

nikpmup

Apologies if this comes across as seeking legal advice, I'm not, I just want a general shove in the right direction!

A couple of months ago, my mother employed the services of a builder to do some work on the house. The work consisted of knocking through from the kitchen to the sitting room (which required putting in a steel supporting beam) and then revamping the bathroom; pulling out the old bath & suite, moving the position of the toilet and sink and installing a shower. A little bit of background info; the builder was doing some work in the house next door, this is how she came to employ him.

He started and completed the work downstairs with no bother, for which my mother paid him. He came back then to start on the bathroom, this is where the trouble started. He told my mam he would source and buy the shower tray and surround, and told her it was €500, which my mother gave him. He arrived back to the house with a tray and surround and set about pulling out the old bathroom.
A day or two into this work, myself and my mother were sitting downstairs when we saw his van leave at about 5.30pm. Thought nothing of it, but 20 mins later the neighbour knocked on the door, very irate, saying that he had knocked over the gate pillar between the houses, and accusing him of being drunk. The pillar was knocked over, but as I hadn't actually spoken to the builder that day I couldn't comment on whether or not he'd had a drink. I tried ringing him but there was no answer. He arrived back the next morning; we told him he'd knocked over the pillar and he said he hadn't noticed, apologised, and said he'd fix it. He spent the rest of the day working on the bathroom, moving pipes.
The next day, my mother left early. My sister arrived back to the house at lunchtime to find the builder absolutely legless. He couldn't stand or speak. She tried to get his van keys off him, but he wouldn't them go, got in the van and drove off. My sister called the guards to report him.

The following day he arrived back to the house, minus the van and with a big cut on his head. He begged to be given another chance, but my sister's husband told him no way, he couldn't be trusted and that he could collect his tools at a later date. He actually couldn't remember being at the house the previous day. We told him that we'd pay him for the work on the bathroom he'd already done, minus the cost of repairing the pillar and the cost of removing the skip (which he was supposed to have organised as part of the work downstairs)
He cleared off and we arranged another guy to finish the work (difficult to do a few weeks before xmas!)

Here's the clincher. First off, the skip was filled with rubble that wasn't from our house - he'd obviously dumped stuff from another job in it, so we had to pay for that and another mini skip to clear the mess from the work. Secondly, and more importantly, we discovered that the tray and shower he had supplied were at least 5 years old and were not the right size for each other. The shower was from B&Q, we phoned them and they told us that they hadn't made that shower in about 5/6 years, and that the size (850mm) was no longer made. He charged my mother €500 for it, when it was sold it was only €280 (and another €80 for the tray) We had to rip out the tray, refit another one and re-tile around it, as well as fork out for another shower cubicle. We reckon he had that shower in his shed for years and saw an opportunity to get rid of it at a healthy profit.

He phoned my sister's husband the other day enquiring if he could come up and collect his tools. My BIL, understandably told him that he was to first repay my mother the €500 she'd paid him for the shower. He refused point blank, claimed the shower was new, and denied being drunk, even though two of my sisters had seen him and spoken to him drunk and he'd admitted being drunk the day after he'd been in the house under the influence.

I'm absolutely furious, and really don't want him to get away with this shocking behaviour. While in was inconvenient having to try to quickly find another workman to finish the work, the thought that he has tried to fiddle my mother out of a substantial amount of money by trying to pass the shower off as a new one, followed by his adamant denial that he did that or was drunk is enraging. We are determined that he should at the very least pay for the cost of the skips, the repair to the pillar, and refund the cost of the shower (we still have it to return to him) The cost of the second workman (as well as the cost of re-doing the shower try and tiling) we're prepared to absorb. Where do I start with this? Small claims court, or elsewhere? Is it likely that we will recover any money from him? We still have his tools (we're not refusing to hand them back, he hung up the phone after the conversation with my sister's husband and hasn't been in contact since) My mother isn't really in a position to do anything about this as she suffers from extreme anxiety - she's been to the doctors since all this kicked off, is on sleeping tablets and is terrified he's going to knock on the door.

MarkAnthony

The great thing about doors is you can lock 'um. If he knocks just ignore him, if he persists call the guards.

Drop the tools into the local garda station and then I'd look at the Small Claims route. In all honesty unless this is a proper company / sole trader you're unlikely to get any judgement enforced. Only you know if this was all through the books or not.

Best of luck.

braddun

what shall we do with a drunken builder,what shall we do with a drunken builder
Early in the morning

Put him in the van till he's sober
Put him in the van till he's sober
Early in the morning


What shall we do with the drunken builder
Early in the morning

Put him in the scuppers with a horse pipe on him
Put him in the scuppers with a horse pipe on him
Early in the morning


What shall we do with the drunken builder Early in the morning

Shave his face with a rusty razor
Shave his face with a rusty razor
Early in the morning

Chorus What shall we do with the drunken builder Early in the morning

That's what we do with the drunken builder
That's what we do with the drunken builder
Early in the morning

TopTec

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Drop the tools into the local garda station and then I'd look at the Small Claims route.

I can imagine the look on the Guards faces when you do this!! My view is that this is essentially a civil claim, although there are fraudulent elements to his behavior. I would remove the tools to a safe place and either write or call him to let him know you have done so.

Then, if you feel strongly about this, pursue the small claims route.

TBH this needs a solicitor, to add weight to letters demanding settlement in the first instance, then you could go down the claims route.

Feel sorry for your Mother having to put up with crap like this. I would hate this to happen to mine.

TT

Dr Turk Turkelton

Just get your sister and get husband to take the tools away until he pays back the money.
He doesn't sound like the sort to go the legal route and even if he does all her husband has to say is he took them out of your mother's way and stored them at his house rather than binning them.
It is not his fault he never had a convenient time to meet the builder to return them.

P. Breathnach

I think your mother should seek advice on whether she can legally hold his tools as security on her claim.

Imagine it going to court, and his arguing that he is unable to earn money to compensate her because she has held on to the tools he needs.

MarkAnthony

Give him his tools back - two wrongs don't make a right. The garda station is the best neutral ground to do this.

ABajaninCork

Did the Gards do him for drink-driving?

Corinthcanal

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Give him his tools back - two wrongs don't make a right. The garda station is the best neutral ground to do this.

There is nothing wrong with retaining property on foot of a lien. It happens all the time. You should send him a bill for compensation for the losses incurred. Tell him you will sell the tools in part satisfaction if he doesn't pay up within a reasonable time. My sister had a similar situation once.it ended when she asked the builder for receipts for the tools.

P. Breathnach

Corinthcanal wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with retaining property on foot of a lien....

If a lien exists. I suggested that OP's mother needs advice because I am not sure if a lien arises in the circumstances described here.

MarkAnthony

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If a lien exists. I suggested that OP's mother needs advice because I am not sure if a lien arises in the circumstances described here.

Even if one does, I am also doubtful, the OP has clearly stated their is someone in the house with a nervous disposition. Best to remove any incentive for the builder to call round.

Pat Mustard

Corinthcanal wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with retaining property on foot of a lien. It happens all the time. You should send him a bill for compensation for the losses incurred. Tell him you will sell the tools in part satisfaction if he doesn't pay up within a reasonable time. My sister had a similar situation once.it ended when she asked the builder for receipts for the tools.

A lien over chattels arises in respect of a debt for services rendered, etc. These people have not carried out services for the builder for which he owes them a debt. Therefore, I do not see how a lien arises over the builder's equipment. Just because a builder caused damage and carried out negligent work does not mean that he owes a debt. Debts are different to causes of action for negligence and breach of contract.

Kristopherus

The Mustard wrote: »

A lien over chattels arises in respect of a debt for services rendered, etc. These people have not carried out services for the builder for which he owes them a debt. Therefore, I do not see how a lien arises over the builder's equipment. Just because a builder caused damage and carried out negligent work does not mean that he owes a debt. Debts are different to causes of action for negligence and breach of contract.

What sort of statement is that?

The OP has listed all the misdeeds of this "builder". Of course he owes them a debt. He has caused damage to property, supplied unfit equipment, unauthorised use of a skip, necessitating the hire of an additional skip. The OP's relatives are well entitled to hold on to his tools until he pays what he owes.

GreeBo

Kristopherus wrote: »

What sort of statement is that?

A legal one.

nikpmup

Thanks for the replies folks. MarkAnthony, as I stated in my OP, we're not withholding the tools, it just happens that he hasn't been back to get them. If it were up to me I'd stick them on Adverts to try to claw back some of what he cost my mother. We told him to collect the tools at a later date because he had no van with him when he returned to the house the day after turning up pi$$ed. He wasn't arrested - when my sister called the guards she didn't have his reg number, and she didn't know where he was going, all the guards could do was keep an eye out for his van.

I think I'll get a solicitor to have a look at it. The problem is the shower and the skip issue - it's his word against ours that the shower is the wrong one, and that he agreed to get the skip taken away

sw33t_r3v3ng3

I wouldnt suggest going to the guards about this... I have little faith in them in circumstances like these. The builder would more than likely get his tools back then and you'd have no leverage. Not a good position to be in

Pat Mustard

Kristopherus wrote: »

What sort of statement is that?

The OP has listed all the misdeeds of this "builder". Of course he owes them a debt. He has caused damage to property, supplied unfit equipment, unauthorised use of a skip, necessitating the hire of an additional skip. The OP's relatives are well entitled to hold on to his tools until he pays what he owes.

A debt is a sum of money owed.

Damage to property and negligent work may give rise to a cause of action, which can lead to a court making an order for damages. However, of itself, a cause of action for breach of contract/negligence is not a debt and it is not money owed.

Debts may give rise to liens over goods/chattels held, in certain circumstances. Causes of action in breach of contract and/or negligence do not give rise to liens under common law.

MarkAnthony

nikpmup wrote: »

Thanks for the replies folks. MarkAnthony, as I stated in my OP, we're not withholding the tools, it just happens that he hasn't been back to get them. If it were up to me I'd stick them on Adverts to try to claw back some of what he cost my mother. We told him to collect the tools at a later date because he had no van with him when he returned to the house the day after turning up pi$$ed. He wasn't arrested - when my sister called the guards she didn't have his reg number, and she didn't know where he was going, all the guards could do was keep an eye out for his van.

I think I'll get a solicitor to have a look at it. The problem is the shower and the skip issue - it's his word against ours that the shower is the wrong one, and that he agreed to get the skip taken away

I wasn't suggesting you were, simply responding to other posters.

Don't stick them on adverts you'll make the situation more complicated and you've someone with issues to deal with. The last thing that person is going to need is someone banging on the door.

nikpmup

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I wasn't suggesting you were, simply responding to other posters.

Don't stick them on adverts you'll make the situation more complicated and you've someone with issues to deal with. The last thing that person is going to need is someone banging on the door.

I've no intention of selling them, don't worry! I'd love to though....actually, if we're talking about what I'd REALLY love to do with them I'd probably get banned! Discovered today that he most probably relieved my mother of a large bottle of vodka the day he knocked over the pillar :-/

Wheelnut

The shower unit seems straightforward if I understand correctly. The OP has the unsuitable shower and can hand it back for the return of the €500.

The cost of the skip is more open to fudging so it might be as well to let that go.

Knocking the pillar is probably a matter for the vehicle insurance.

Do we know how much the job finally cost and how much it was supposed to cost? This is the most relevant figure in relation to any alleged loss. The value of the tools is probably relatively small so giving them back is not a major issue.