Left v. Right in Civil War Era

kildarejohn

In post #62 of the "2nd worst war" thread Chicago Joe observed "Many of the "advanced nationalists" of the pre-Rising era were left-wingers ...part of this group that survived the Rising, War of Independence and Civil War were largely driven out of the country"

I heard/read somewhere that the left wing/trade union element in 1922 tended to support the pro-Treaty side. Yet in the "popular" view of history the terms "Free Staters" and "Blue Shirts" are used almost interchangeably to refer to the right wing.

Any comments (with sources) on the accuracy of the above two statements?

Jolly Red Giant

kildarejohn wrote: »

In post #62 of the "2nd worst war" thread Chicago Joe observed "Many of the "advanced nationalists" of the pre-Rising era were left-wingers ...part of this group that survived the Rising, War of Independence and Civil War were largely driven out of the country"

I heard/read somewhere that the left wing/trade union element in 1922 tended to support the pro-Treaty side. Yet in the "popular" view of history the terms "Free Staters" and "Blue Shirts" are used almost interchangeably to refer to the right wing.

Any comments (with sources) on the accuracy of the above two statements?

It is totally inaccuate to argue that 'advanced nationalists' were left-wing in the pre-Rising era. There was minimal to no cross-over between the nationalist movement and the workers movement during the period from 1912-1923 (and after) - it wasn't until the emergence of the Republican Congress in the 1930s that there emerged a republican element that shifted significantly to the left.

It is also incorrect to claim that the left were pro-treaty - in political terms the left would have been anti-treaty but primarily adopted the approach of 'a plague on both your houses' - both wings of the nationalist movement were anti-worker during the civil war and both suppressed soviets and strikes during the civil war.

The 'Free Staters' were reactionary ultra conservative nationalists and the Blueshirts were fascists.

Manach

The OP would have to place it in wider context. Ireland in common with many continental countries post-WWI contained many entities that were had a mixture of nationalistic with left or right wing policies joustling for power when the old Imperial houses were dismantled. This did not always end well: for instance the 1919 Red regime in Hungary or the savage civil war in Finland.

However given the strong institutional entities that were present in Ireland, such a level of right vs left did not devolve into civil dispute (more different nationalist strands) and instead the more conservative regime of Cosgreave managed to patch together a remarkably stable state (paraphrasing Reynold's "Long Shadow"). In spite of that, given the economic weakness of the state and the grandiose spending plans, it was unsurprising the left lost members to immigration. Of those, many joined trade union movements in UK/US (Reid "1919")

Jolly Red Giant

Manach wrote: »

The OP would have to place it in wider context. Ireland in common with many continental countries post-WWI contained many entities that were had a mixture of nationalistic with left or right wing policies joustling for power when the old Imperial houses were dismantled. This did not always end well: for instance the 1919 Red regime in Hungary or the savage civil war in Finland.

it is a nonsense to suggest that the class struggle was nationalistic in character - there was almost exclusively a left/right split in the social unrest of the period (and Ireland was not immune from that development)

Manach wrote: »

However given the strong institutional entities that were present in Ireland, such a level of right vs left did not devolve into civil dispute (more different nationalist strands) and instead the more conservative regime of Cosgreave managed to patch together a remarkably stable state (paraphrasing Reynold's "Long Shadow"). In spite of that, given the economic weakness of the state and the grandiose spending plans, it was unsurprising the left lost members to immigration. Of those, many joined trade union movements in UK/US (Reid "1919")

This is also inaccurate - the 1920s (at least up until 1927) was a period of unrelenting class warfare waged by the ruling elites and the reactionary regime of Cosgrave. The highpoint of this struggle was the large scale industrial conflict around the building of the Ardnacrusha power station that last almost ten months - and the subsequent, repeated attacks (physical attacks by fascists) on the workers working on the site whenever they tried to organise, after the defeat of the strike.

Manach

Your entitled to your own ideological retrospective world view, I'll just stick to history as it actually happened.

pedroeibar1

Manach wrote: »

The OP would have to place it in wider context.

Whatever about the OP, he’s quoting another post and I have serious doubts that the real OP could do so.

Manach wrote: »

Your entitled to your own ideological retrospective world view, I'll just stick to history as it actually happened.

+1.

Jolly Red Giant

Manach wrote: »

Your entitled to your own ideological retrospective world view, I'll just stick to history as it actually happened.

Produce evidence to contradict the evidence that exists of the treatment of the workers on strike during the building of the power station, the treatment of the workers on the building site, the manipulation of the strike by the government in the interests of the ruling elites in the country and the long term consequences of the defeat of the strike.

I base everything I post on this forum on evidence, most of which I have researched myself. You can attempt to dismiss it if you want but if you want your comments to have any concrete value then present alternative evidence ( something you have been asked to do in the past and have repeatedly failed to do).

Jesus.

Red Giant ain't so Jolly a'tall

Dr.Nightdub

This may be of interest to anyone interested in the facts of what happened in the 1920s, even before Ardnacrusha - an article written by Cathal Brennan, who presents the History Show on Near FM:
http://www.theirishstory.com/2012/06/08/the-postal-strike-of-1922/#.VJNs2sgQ

"In Crown Alley about 6 o’clock yesterday evening, before the civil police forces—the Civic Guard or the D.M.P.—had notified the pickets they were doing wrong, and even before the pickets knew themselves they were doing wrong, they were fired upon—although the shots were fired over their heads— by members of the Free State Army."

Santa Cruz

Dr.Nightdub wrote: »

This may be of interest to anyone interested in the facts of what happened in the 1920s, even before Ardnacrusha - an article written by Cathal Brennan, who presents the History Show on Near FM:
http://www.theirishstory.com/2012/06/08/the-postal-strike-of-1922/#.VJNs2sgQ

"In Crown Alley about 6 o’clock yesterday evening, before the civil police forces—the Civic Guard or the D.M.P.—had notified the pickets they were doing wrong, and even before the pickets knew themselves they were doing wrong, they were fired upon—although the shots were fired over their heads— by members of the Free State Army."

And there were several instances where IRA sided with gombeen men and farmers against the agricultural labourers when they tried to organise strikes

DarkyHughes

Well the Free State was very right wing & conservative as wè seen how they governed (well managed) after the dust from the war settled. They ordered the Free State Army to destroy the Soviets that had been set up in the course of popular struggle & gave the landlords back their land or the land they claimed to own by the right of conquest.

I wish the left won.

marienbad

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Well the Free State was very right wing & conservative as wè seen how they governed (well managed) after the dust from the war settled. They ordered the Free State Army to destroy the Soviets that had been set up in the course of popular struggle & gave the landlords back their land or the land they claimed to own by the right of conquest.

I wish the left won.

Other than a very small percentage there was very little left - just right and farther right .

Jolly Red Giant

marienbad wrote: »

Other than a very small percentage there was very little left - just right and farther right .

Not accurate - the LP and the trade union movement (actually a single organisation) was a very radical organisation - particularly when compared to the modern political landscape. In particular the ITGWU was a hotbed of left wing radicalism.

Between April- August 1922 more than 3,500 workers employed by the Cleeves Combine occupied more than 120 different workplaces across Munster from Carrick-on-Suir to Limerick. In the course of the Munster Soviets the workers ran entire towns and villages across North Munster in open defiance of both the pro- and anti-Treaty forces. At the same time thousands of farm labourers went on strike for several months in Wateerford, Cork, Carlow, Kilkenny and Kildare. The stikes were eventually suppressed by the Special Infantry Corps - a fascist paramilitary forces established by Kevin O'Higgins to break the strikes.

This radicalisation continued after the end of the civil war beginning with the post office strike and culminating with the nine month long strike in Limerick at the site of the Ardnacrusha power station in 1925-1926. It was the defeat of this strike that ultimately facilitated the completion of the right-wing takeover of the ILPTUC and the demise of the radical left.

An opportunity did emerge in the 1930s for a re-establishment of the radical left with the establishment of the Republican Congress which grew rapidly only to be sabotaged by the Stalinists in the CPGB and the RWG. It has taken another 80 years to approach the same level of left activism in Ireland.

marienbad

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Not accurate - the LP and the trade union movement (actually a single organisation) was a very radical organisation - particularly when compared to the modern political landscape. In particular the ITGWU was a hotbed of left wing radicalism.

Between April- August 1922 more than 3,500 workers employed by the Cleeves Combine occupied more than 120 different workplaces across Munster from Carrick-on-Suir to Limerick. In the course of the Munster Soviets the workers ran entire towns and villages across North Munster in open defiance of both the pro- and anti-Treaty forces. At the same time thousands of farm labourers went on strike for several months in Wateerford, Cork, Carlow, Kilkenny and Kildare. The stikes were eventually suppressed by the Special Infantry Corps - a fascist paramilitary forces established by Kevin O'Higgins to break the strikes.

This radicalisation continued after the end of the civil war beginning with the post office strike and culminating with the nine month long strike in Limerick at the site of the Ardnacrusha power station in 1925-1926. It was the defeat of this strike that ultimately facilitated the completion of the right-wing takeover of the ILPTUC and the demise of the radical left.

An opportunity did emerge in the 1930s for a re-establishment of the radical left with the establishment of the Republican Congress which grew rapidly only to be sabotaged by the Stalinists in the CPGB and the RWG. It has taken another 80 years to approach the same level of left activism in Ireland.

Read my post again - there was indeed a radical left in Ireland ,but of very small proportions . And every subsequent general election verified that - would that it were otherwise - but the real miracle in the early years of our country is that we didn't become a right wing catholic dictatorship. ( though some would maintain we did in all but name)

Jolly Red Giant

marienbad wrote: »

Read my post again - there was indeed a radical left in Ireland ,but of very small proportions . And every subsequent general election verified that - would that it were otherwise - but the real miracle in the early years of our country is that we didn't become a right wing catholic dictatorship. ( though some would maintain we did in all but name)

And I suggest you read mine again.

The radical left was substantial and posed a direct threat to the nationalist movement and even the capitalit system. During the period 1917-1922 the potential existed for socialist revolution on this island.

In the 1922 election the LP ran 18 candidates and got 17 elected (the defeated candidate lost by a handful of votes) - most of whom were strike leaders. In a number of areas the LP took more than 40% of the vote and could have won a large number of extra seats if they ran more candidates.

This movement suffered a major defeat with the suppression of the Munster Soviets and the use of state-sanctioned fascist paramilitaries against the farm labourers strikes. Despite these defeats the movement recovered to fight massive cuts in jobs and wages in the new Free State until the defeat of the Ardnacrusha strike.

The LP was neutralised by the right-wing leadership in 1930 when it was split from ICTU.

The Republican Congress emerged from a left-wing split from the IRA and drew in large numbers of left activists fighting austerity and the Blueshirts - the RC was wrecked by the Stalinists who were going through their popular front phase at the time and didn't want the RC to develop as an independent lady party but join with what they termed as 'progressives'.

marienbad

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

And I suggest you read mine again.

The radical left was substantial and posed a direct threat to the nationalist movement and even the capitalit system. During the period 1917-1922 the potential existed for socialist revolution on this island.

In the 1922 election the LP ran 18 candidates and got 17 elected (the defeated candidate lost by a handful of votes) - most of whom were strike leaders. In a number of areas the LP took more than 40% of the vote and could have won a large number of extra seats if they ran more candidates.

This movement suffered a major defeat with the suppression of the Munster Soviets and the use of state-sanctioned fascist paramilitaries against the farm labourers strikes. Despite these defeats the movement recovered to fight massive cuts in jobs and wages in the new Free State until the defeat of the Ardnacrusha strike.

The LP was neutralised by the right-wing leadership in 1930 when it was split from ICTU.

The Republican Congress emerged from a left-wing split from the IRA and drew in large numbers of left activists fighting austerity and the Blueshirts - the RC was wrecked by the Stalinists who were going through their popular front phase at the time and didn't want the RC to develop as an independent lady party but join with what they termed as 'progressives'.

The religious grip was so strong in this country that the left was never going to progress buts lets just agree to disagree then.

Jolly Red Giant

marienbad wrote: »

The religious grip was so strong in this country that the left was never going to progress buts lets just agree to disagree then.

Evidence?

DarkyHughes

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Not accurate - the LP and the trade union movement (actually a single organisation) was a very radical organisation - particularly when compared to the modern political landscape. In particular the ITGWU was a hotbed of left wing radicalism.

Between April- August 1922 more than 3,500 workers employed by the Cleeves Combine occupied more than 120 different workplaces across Munster from Carrick-on-Suir to Limerick. In the course of the Munster Soviets the workers ran entire towns and villages across North Munster in open defiance of both the pro- and anti-Treaty forces. At the same time thousands of farm labourers went on strike for several months in Wateerford, Cork, Carlow, Kilkenny and Kildare. The stikes were eventually suppressed by the Special Infantry Corps - a fascist paramilitary forces established by Kevin O'Higgins to break the strikes.

This radicalisation continued after the end of the civil war beginning with the post office strike and culminating with the nine month long strike in Limerick at the site of the Ardnacrusha power station in 1925-1926. It was the defeat of this strike that ultimately facilitated the completion of the right-wing takeover of the ILPTUC and the demise of the radical left.

An opportunity did emerge in the 1930s for a re-establishment of the radical left with the establishment of the Republican Congress which grew rapidly only to be sabotaged by the Stalinists in the CPGB and the RWG. It has taken another 80 years to approach the same level of left activism in Ireland.

Wow, I knew some people took over their places work & set up some Soviets but not on that scale. That's great post. There was also a Limerick Soviet at the start Tan war that lasted about week as well wasn't their.

The radical left not appear again until the Republican movement became increasinly Marxist-Leninist in out look in the late 50 early 60 or was their something else in between. I know about 150 Republican socialists joined Republican side in the Spanish Civil War but were they just individual Republicans who decided to go or were they part of an organization? I know alot more joined the Franco's fascist side like the Blueshirts & the Irish government was actually pretty sympathetic the Franco the beast's cause.

marienbad

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Evidence?

The absence of the left for nigh on 100 years is not evidence enough for you ?

Even the Limerick Soviet deferred to the Church