Leaking roof - Management company not fixing properly

blondeonblonde

Hi,

I hope I am in the right forum here, have been having issues with the management company who are failing to properly fix the leak in our roof.

A bit of background. We bought our apartment last year and shortly after moving in noticed that there was a leak coming from the ceiling a room just off the bedroom. The plasterwork had shown signs of damage when we had initially viewed the place prior to purchase but the property survey showed up no moisture and we assumed that the roof leak had been fixed. The apartment is in a block of 9 other units and is essentially like a terraced back to back house with all 9 units having a shared roof. The roof is a flat roof and there are clear signs of water pooling above the area where the leak is. There is a black felt covering on the flat roof and there are also signs of repair where it has been patched previously.

When we noticed the leak, we contacted the management company immediately and they advised that they would send out a roofing contractor to investigate the problem and patch the section where the water was leaking. The contractors came out and carried out some kind of repair work and departed again.

Again we assumed the leak had been fixed and there was no sign of further leaking for a month or two. When the leak resurfaced in the same place a couple of months later we called the management company again who in turn sent out contractors to fix the leak. They applied what seemed to me to be no more than a sticking plaster to the roof and naturally the leak recommenced again a short while later.

When the leak recommenced, a new contractor arrived and he, unlike the others, seemed to have a clue what he was doing. When he looked at the leak he thought immediately that the roof showed signs of bowing and that it would need to be built up in order to allow the pooled water to drain properly. However, when he came to actually fix the roof a week later, he again only applied some patchwork to the area where the water was pooling and gave me the impression that the management company were unwilling to pay for the roof to be built up as I assume this would be the more expensive fix so the roof was simply patched again. Incidentally, he also mentioned to me that he was actually unwilling to actually walk on the roof around where the leak was as he was worried that the roof structure may have been weakened by the water damage/ingress.

This last repair was carried out in June of this year and we have had no further issues with leaking until tonight when I noticed again that the plasterwork was coloured and damp. At this stage we are at our wits end as regards what we should do. We pay a substantial management fee and feel like we have just been getting the run around from the Management company who clearly feel that it is cheaper to apply constant patches to the roof rather than properly fix it.

I would really appreciate advice from anyone who has had any similar issues. I am at the stage where I don't know what we can do about it.

Thanks

Deenie123

Get a structural engineer out, have them write a letter to the management company outlining what needs to be done.

the_syco

blondeonblonde wrote: »

A bit of background. We bought our apartment last year and shortly after moving in noticed that there was a leak coming from the ceiling a room just off the bedroom.

If you had an engineer look at the place before you bought it, did their report say anything about the roof, and the repairs on it?

P. Breathnach

You are in tricky territory here.

It is probable that you don't have a right to access the roof, nor does any engineer/surveyor/contractor you employ.

You should bear in mind that you are part of the management company. If you ask for a copy of the latest annual accounts, you might see why the directors are trying to do a cheap (and ineffective) job. Chances are that they don't have the money to do a proper repair. There should be a sinking fund in place to pay for major repairs of this type, but that has been a legal requirement for only a couple of years, so it is quite possible that only a very small fund exists. The position might be worsened by some unit owners (I hope not you) not paying their annual charges.

I suggest that you find out who the directors are, and have a discussion with them about how this problem be addressed.

MarkAnthony

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You are in tricky territory here.

It is probable that you don't have a right to access the roof, nor does any engineer/surveyor/contractor you employ.

You should bear in mind that you are part of the management company. If you ask for a copy of the latest annual accounts, you might see why the directors are trying to do a cheap (and ineffective) job. Chances are that they don't have the money to do a proper repair. There should be a sinking fund in place to pay for major repairs of this type, but that has been a legal requirement for only a couple of years, so it is quite possible that only a very small fund exists. The position might be worsened by some unit owners (I hope not you) not paying their annual charges.

I suggest that you find out who the directors are, and have a discussion with them about how this problem be addressed.

+1 Bang on! You along with the other residents ARE the management company. Make sure you're taking an interest in what's going on. A time commitment of 3-4 hours per year will pay dividends. Ensure you're at the AGM, make sure you're getting the accounts.

blondeonblonde

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You are in tricky territory here.

It is probable that you don't have a right to access the roof, nor does any engineer/surveyor/contractor you employ.

You should bear in mind that you are part of the management company. If you ask for a copy of the latest annual accounts, you might see why the directors are trying to do a cheap (and ineffective) job. Chances are that they don't have the money to do a proper repair. There should be a sinking fund in place to pay for major repairs of this type, but that has been a legal requirement for only a couple of years, so it is quite possible that only a very small fund exists. The position might be worsened by some unit owners (I hope not you) not paying their annual charges.

I suggest that you find out who the directors are, and have a discussion with them about how this problem be addressed.

MarkAnthony wrote: »

+1 Bang on! You along with the other residents ARE the management company. Make sure you're taking an interest in what's going on. A time commitment of 3-4 hours per year will pay dividends. Ensure you're at the AGM, make sure you're getting the accounts.

Thanks guys, yes we are members of the management company and are up to date with our fees. We missed the last AGM due to being away and so we haven't really met with any of the directors or other owner occupiers except informally. We have received copies of the annual accounts and although there is a sinking fund, it is not substantial hence as you say they are not able or willing to commit to a full and proper repair.

Our structural survey was carried out as a visual inspection of the roof only - as you mentioned, he was not able to properly inspect the roof due to it being shared/lack of access. So he was only able to assess the condition based on the weather conditions of the time and since it was dry, there was no leak.

Tricky territory indeed.... I guess we will have to speak to the other directors to suss out what can be done... I don't know how much leverage we have - if the leak is only affecting our unit then they may not be happy to shell out for repairs especially if the sinking fund does not cover the cost.

Thanks for the input anyway, it is very helpful to get some other perspectives...

Incidentally, does anyone have experience about how these decisions are made at management company AGM's? Is it a case of members voting on a particular course of action or does each management company have their own decision making processes?

MarkAnthony

Decisions like whether to have compost bin for the gardening group is made by vote, but things like repairs etc. would be contained within your lease. If there isn't enough in the sinking fund everyone has to shell out, you're all shareholders in the OMC. If the OMC is in the read you're all in the red.

Typically no one shows up to an AGM so the directors do what they want.

Deenie123

First thing is to get an engineer to write to the MC directors outlining the course of action they must take to remediate the damage. If they don't cooperate, the next step is to get your solicitor to write to them.

P. Breathnach

Deenie123 wrote: »

First thing is to get an engineer to write to the MC directors outlining the course of action they must take to remediate the damage. If they don't cooperate, the next step is to get your solicitor to write to them.

Not workable: an engineer engaged by a resident has no right of access to the roof. Further, it might be an unnecessary expense, as might engaging a solicitor.

It is probably better to go a different route: company member talking to directors. Only if that fails should OP consider more expensive options.

Deenie123

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Not workable: an engineer engaged by a resident has no right of access to the roof. Further, it might be an unnecessary expense, as might engaging a solicitor.

It is probably better to go a different route: company member talking to directors. Only if that fails should OP consider more expensive options.

The management company have already screwed the OP over with patch jobs that aren't working. And they'll continue to do so. They already KNOW that the patch jobs aren't ever going to be sufficient.

The roof's leaking and the MC are refusing to fix it, so your suggestion is to forego any professional representation for the OP? Yeah, that'll work.

The OP can request access to the roof for the engineer. The roof belongs 1/10th to the OP, yet you reckon the OP has no right to have a professional access it to assess the level of damage to it?

Lantus

Decision making is primarily by the director team done in conjunction and in accordance with the articles of association and contract lease which will provide guidance on responsibilities and maintainable elements.

The directors will decide generally what needs to be done, how it should be prioritised etc. Every year the director team will put together a budget for the next annual period with many different elements in it balancing the building needs with the realities of an annual service fee. At the AGM the members will have an opportunity to vote for or against this budget or amend it if they feel that they would like to add more money in. Taking money out is a bot more tricky unless it really is discretionary spending. You cannot vote to not spend money on an audit for example as this is an essential legal requirement.

Good director teams will listen and actively encourage involvement from the members year round. As I tell people they can have anything they want as long as it is costed and they are happy to pay for it.

In terms of roof, talk to director team and try to work with them to get the problem identified properly first and foremost. Obviously it is not as simple as a leak. There is something else at play. Put everything in writing, outline al the dates and history and facts up until now to ensure the directors have the full story and everyone has complete as information as possible.

You may be able to get permission for a builder paid for by you to go onto the roof and do a full inspection but as most problems are covered I suspect the real issues will only be uncovered once work begins.

Maybe hold an EGM if money is needed urgently to raise the funds and your AGM is a long way off. Or come to some arrangement whereby you pay for it now and the OMC refunds you by building it into future budgets. Essentially you would be lending them the money in a way. get good paper work drawn up. It could accelerate the process.

Then make sure all members start paying more to ensure these things don't occur again. You can't get money out of a system where non has been paid in. If non payment is an issue now is the time for the directors to start playing hard ball and removing services and access or taking people to court as needed. Otherwise the bank of [insert your name] is going to have to pay for everything to subsides those who don't/wont pay.

P. Breathnach

Deenie123 wrote: »

The management company have already screwed the OP over with patch jobs that aren't working. And they'll continue to do so. They already KNOW that the patch jobs aren't ever going to be sufficient.

The roof's leaking and the MC are refusing to fix it, so your suggestion is to forego any professional representation for the OP? Yeah, that'll work.

The OP can request access to the roof for the engineer. The roof belongs 1/10th to the OP, yet you reckon the OP has no right to have a professional access it to assess the level of damage to it?

And what good might any of that do if the OMC doesn't have the funds to effect a proper repair?

It's generally better to engage constructively with the directors to find a solution than to "go legal" when it might not be necessary. Going into legal processes costs money, when a shortage of money might be the very problem at the moment.

Deenie123

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And what good might any of that do if the OMC doesn't have the funds to effect a proper repair?

It's generally better to engage constructively with the directors to find a solution than to "go legal" when it might not be necessary. Going into legal processes costs money, when a shortage of money might be the very problem at the moment.

Well then the company has to find the money. It's a shared asset with a shared responsibility. Right now they're shirking it because it suits them to.

I'm working off the basis that the directors are already well aware of what the problem is, given that there've been what, 3 repairs since the OP moved in and probably complaints before then? Doesn't sound like the directors are playing ball here. But yeah if you want to drag it out more, by all means. Or just cut to the chase. It's up to the OP ultimately, but if serious damage happens because of the roof they could be found to have contributed to the negligence and an insurance claim refused.

blondeonblonde

Deenie123 wrote: »

Well then the company has to find the money. It's a shared asset with a shared responsibility. Right now they're shirking it because it suits them to.

I'm working off the basis that the directors are already well aware of what the problem is, given that there've been what, 3 repairs since the OP moved in and probably complaints before then? Doesn't sound like the directors are playing ball here. But yeah if you want to drag it out more, by all means. Or just cut to the chase. It's up to the OP ultimately, but if serious damage happens because of the roof they could be found to have contributed to the negligence and an insurance claim refused.

To be honest, I would like to leave the legal route as a last resort although I agree that the issue of insurance and negligence would be a worry.

The upshot of my complaint to the management company representative is that they are going to carry out further investigation this week. They intend to remove a section of the roof in order to try to ascertain where the water is actually coming from. As far as I know, this is the first time that the roof itself has actually been opened from the outside so I'm hopeful that at least we will find out what kind of state the roof is in as a result of the leaking and we can proceed from there. I can only assume that if there is significant damage to the roof that a more thorough repair will have to be sanctioned.

Aside from that, I would hope to contact the MC directors who are resident in the complex in order to see what course of action could be taken. The AGM is not scheduled until sometime in February so I don't know what can be decided before then. As regards our own Engineers report, based on his visual inspection he could only say that there was evidence of previous patchwork repair, some bubbling under the felt covering and that the roof as a whole was approximately midway through its lifespan. Honestly though given that it was only a visual inspection I don't know how much water his conclusion holds (pardon the pun!).

More worryingly of course is the fact that patchwork repairs were obviously also carried out before we arrived although I don't have the background info about what was done and when....

Anyway, thanks again for the insight and comments. Hopefully will be wiser following the inspection...