Why do the police in Ireland ignore prostitution

Sounds

I often over heard conversations from people about local prostitution,
And the amount of places around different cities where you can find them.
If you search online you'll find many websites where prostitutes advertise.
Most of these houses have been providing illegal adult services for years.

So my question is, why do the police allow these people to do what they do.
It'd be easy for a group of people to walk into any of these places and catch them.


So why do the police ignore them?

goz83

Because the police have no jurisdiction here, the Gardai, on the other hand, do.

braddun

the garda have to get a complaint,or you could complain to local council to shut them down


prostitution is victimless crime


police and government can get more money raiding drug houses,


next you will be asking why garda cant solve more murders and rapes

goz83

So, if you got bad service, you have to complain to the Gardai, not the police

MarkAnthony

Because prostitution isn't illegal and neither should it be. Various ancillary activities are illegal and should be.

pillphil

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Because prostitution isn't illegal and neither should it be. Various ancillary activities are illegal and should be.

Really?

usernamegoes

pillphil wrote: »

Really?

Not unless soliciting on the street or keeping a brothel.

If organised online for example, it is not a crime.

MarkAnthony

pillphil wrote: »

Really?

If it was we wouldn't (and don't anyway) require the daft legislative process we're currently going through to adopt the Swedish model and make it illegal for the client.

All we're going to achive is increase the risk to reward, force it underground and increase exploitation of trafficked and underaged girls. It's an absolute and utter farce, you might not want to get me started on a rant :pac:

Sounds

Sorry, I meant the Gardai,

I'm not complaining to anyone, people are being paid to prevent crime like this right?
And it's clear this is large scale crime, so why aren't they doing anything about it.
Targeting people behind the scene that get all these girls involved the sex trade.

MarkAnthony

Sounds wrote: »

Sorry, I meant the Gardai,

I'm not complaining to anyone, people are being paid to prevent crime like this right?
And it's clear this is large scale crime, so why aren't they doing anything about it.
Targeting people behind the scene that get all these girls involved the sex trade.

Because what you're seeing (the ground level) is not illegal. The gardai do and are actively involved in shutting down brothels and trafficking operations. They are also very effective and tackling street prostitution.

A girl discretely working out of an apartment is harming no one and I'd rather the guards were out looking for the git that's robbed someone's house.

biko

Err, gardai just raided 22 premises

Gardaí have raided a total of 22 premises around the country as part of a two-day nationwide operation targeting organised prostitution. The searches follow a six-month investigation by the Organised Crime Unit into the activities of a criminal group involved in organised prostitution, brothel keeping and other associated criminal activity.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/organised-prostitution-targeted-in-garda-raids-1.2027797

pillphil

MarkAnthony wrote: »

If it was we wouldn't (and don't anyway) require the daft legislative process we're currently going through to adopt the Swedish model and make it illegal for the client.

All we're going to achive is increase the risk to reward, force it underground and increase exploitation of trafficked and underaged girls. It's an absolute and utter farce, you might not want to get me started on a rant :pac:

Ah, I'd heard about the swedeish model legislation but I had assumed it was about about decriminalising the worker as opposed to criminalising the client.

Anyway, if you can't rant here, where can you rant

Sounds

Exactly! nothing like a good rant.

That's some good news Biko

Anyway, I just wanted to keep the subject alive, there's some bad s**t happening behind the scenes.

Actually my next question was about drones, but saved that for another forum.

MarkAnthony

pillphil wrote: »

Ah, I'd heard about the swedeish model legislation but I had assumed it was about about decriminalising the worker as opposed to criminalising the client.

Anyway, if you can't rant here, where can you rant

We actually have the perfect system here IMHO. The German model is too commercialised and results in exploitation from that side, the Swedish model is pure lunacy in a country like Ireland. It works for the Swedes to a degree but what people don't realise is how oppressive the state is there and the bonkers attitudes they take to sexual matters within their Criminal Justice System.

It's lazy and counter productive enforcement. Stings etc have worked in relation to street prostitution so well because for very little extra money you could visit an escort. There are of course issues with these escorts being trafficked in some situations, but that's true of any take-away. Admittedly I'd rather be trafficked in to a take away but the problem still remains.

Men who fear a woman is being trafficked will no longer report it because of the fear of being arrested themselves although again how many currently report is questionable.

With no where to go people who use prostitutes will turn to dodgier methods to get what they want as the risk will be the same. When all we really needed was better enforcement of the current laws. If anything we should have relaxed the laws in this regard and introduced more regulation. It's already being counted in our GDP FFS.

GerardKeating

braddun wrote: »

prostitution is victimless crime

Those trafficked into the country against their will into the sex industry might dispute that with you.

johnnyskeleton

GerardKeating wrote: »

Those trafficked into the country against their will into the sex industry might dispute that with you.

The point was made that a vicitm of trafficking is more likely to end up working in a kitchen than in a brothel. Does that make the act of buying take away food a victimising act? So if someone is trafficked and forced to work against their will its thr trafficking that is the crime and causes the victim, not the prostitution. Licencing prostitutes and using the licence fee to combat trafficking is the obvious utilitarian way of reducing victimisation. But in conservative ireland we would rather have more vicitms, but that they are oht of sight and out of mind.

Pixie Chief

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The point was made that a vicitm of trafficking is more likely to end up working in a kitchen than in a brothel. Does that make the act of buying take away food a victimising act? So if someone is trafficked and forced to work against their will its thr trafficking that is the crime and causes the victim, not the prostitution. Licencing prostitutes and using the licence fee to combat trafficking is the obvious utilitarian way of reducing victimisation. But in conservative ireland we would rather have more vicitms, but that they are oht of sight and out of mind.

In every article I've read on the topic, they've stated (without citing any particular studies) that in every country where they have licensed it, the involvement of organised crime bodies in prostitution has increased dramatically?

Dandelion6

Pixie Chief wrote: »

In every article I've read on the topic, they've stated (without citing any particular studies) that in every country where they have licensed it, the involvement of organised crime bodies in prostitution has increased dramatically?

I think a lot of those claims are BS but licensing isn't really the way to go anyway. In New Zealand it's regulated as work (subject to the same occupational health and safety laws as any other work), and up to four sex workers can share a premise as self-employed workers without needing any kind of licence. The NZ Justice Committee was recently petitioned to bring in the Swedish model and decided not to because the evidence in front of them indicated that the law they have is working pretty well.

http://www.parliament.nz/resource/en-nz/51DBSCH_SCR60581_1/95190bf6f5fbb90788c965862fa2e9d1ecf8ca84

johnnyskeleton

Pixie Chief wrote: »

In every article I've read on the topic, they've stated (without citing any particular studies) that in every country where they have licensed it, the involvement of organised crime bodies in prostitution has increased dramatically?

Im sure what the authors of those articles meant to say was that every time a coubtry makes prostitution legal and safer for the girls to work in, it makes baby jesus cry. But they realise that wont sit well with thei target audience.

Peregrinus

Dandelion6 wrote: »

I think a lot of those claims are BS but licensing isn't really the way to go anyway. In New Zealand it's regulated as work (subject to the same occupational health and safety laws as any other work), and up to four sex workers can share a premise as self-employed workers without needing any kind of licence. The NZ Justice Committee was recently petitioned to bring in the Swedish model and decided not to because the evidence in front of them indicated that the law they have is working pretty well.

http://www.parliament.nz/resource/en-nz/51DBSCH_SCR60581_1/95190bf6f5fbb90788c965862fa2e9d1ecf8ca84

Actually, the report doesn't say that "the law they have is working pretty well". On the contrary, they concede that the current law hasn't been effective to eliminate street prostitution, or even noticeably reduce it; it may in fact have increased.

They reject the Swedish model because they don't think it will be any better at reducing street prostitution, and will have other negative consequences. But it's going bit far to say that they think the present law is "working well". It hasn't had the outcomes that were hoped for when it was introduced in 2003; in particular street prostitution remains a problem, and while the 2003 law made it illegal for under-18s to work as prostitutes in terms of outcomes the best the report can say is that "there has been no increase in the number of under-age prostitutes" since 2003. It's not exactly a ringing endorsement of decriminalisation.

seamus

Pixie Chief wrote: »

In every article I've read on the topic, they've stated (without citing any particular studies) that in every country where they have licensed it, the involvement of organised crime bodies in prostitution has increased dramatically?

This claim as I remember it, is the fact that once you licence prostitution, those who were formerly outside of the law running brothels now become legal businesspeople.

And for some reason this is a bad thing.

Dandelion6

Peregrinus wrote: »

Actually, the report doesn't say that "the law they have is working pretty well". On the contrary, they concede that the current law hasn't been effective to eliminate street prostitution, or even noticeably reduce it; it may in fact have increased.

They reject the Swedish model because they don't think it will be any better at reducing street prostitution, and will have other negative consequences. But it's going bit far to say that they think the present law is "working well". It hasn't had the outcomes that were hoped for when it was introduced in 2003; in particular street prostitution remains a problem, and while the 2003 law made it illegal for under-18s to work as prostitutes in terms of outcomes the best the report can say is that "there has been no increase in the number of under-age prostitutes" since 2003. It's not exactly a ringing endorsement of decriminalisation.

Street prostitution and underage prostitution are a minority of overall prostitution. Yes the particularly troublesome sectors continue to be particularly troublesome, but the report also notes that these are not problems that can be eradicated by laws alone in any case. In terms of things a law can achieve, the report states: "on the whole the vast majority of those involved in the sex industry are better off than they were before the Prostitution Reform Act". That reads like an endorsement to me.

Peregrinus

Dandelion6 wrote: »

. . . In terms of things a law can achieve, the report states: "on the whole the vast majority of those involved in the sex industry are better off than they were before the Prostitution Reform Act". That reads like an endorsement to me.

It's an endorsement of the current law as compared with the pre-2003 law, but not necessarily as compared with other models which as yet have not been tried in New Zealand - e.g. the Swedish model, but there are others.

In this report, one of the reasons given for not proceeding with the Swedish model is that there was at the time another Bill before Parliament focussing in particular on the regulation of street prostitution; the Committee felt that measure should be tried before, or rather than, the Swedish model. But the fact that any measure was necessary shows that the current law wasn't considered entirely satisfactory.

(Googling suggests that that other Bill is still before the New Zealand Parliament - i.e. they haven't as yet either rejected it or passed it.)

Sounds

The people behind the scenes are cold hearted, unhuman natured, animals, in their eyes their only concern is money.
If someone is making money from selling themselves and it is their choice then good luck to them, that's their business.
For the thousands of mainly girls that don't have a choice, they don't say anything because they're being watched closely.
They must be terrified at the thoughts of being sent back to worse or what will happen them if they say anything, beatings etc.
I think those people should be protected and helped if they want help.

The animals behind the scenes need to be targeted, non stop, eventually they can't continue.
Prostitution in any form, online or offline, is not a job title or any form of employment, it's just what it is.

I think that some countries don't have the same morals and over look things that other countries find disrespectful, offensive and degrading.
You can see examples of that all over Europe, and now they are trafficking in our country.
If you legalize anything like that it will be all over the streets in plain day light.

Dandelion6

Peregrinus wrote: »

(Googling suggests that that other Bill is still before the New Zealand Parliament - i.e. they haven't as yet either rejected it or passed it.)

Nope, it's gone. I don't think the Committee was actually recommending that it be used instead of the Swedish model, anyway; they simply said that they were interested in its outcome. That Bill would have allowed the Council to ban street prostitution in particular areas i.e. to criminalise people who sell sex in those areas - but the report cites the findings of the Law Review Committee that criminalisation in any form has negative consequences for sex workers.

I stand over my comment; the Committee declined to adopt the Swedish model because the evidence suggests the current model is doing a pretty good job of achieving what it was meant to achieve, to the extent that the Committee believes any prostitution law can do so. This doesn't mean there aren't still issues, but the Committee does not believe changes to the legal framework on prostitution per se are the way to address them.

ldxo15wus6fpgm

I hate the hijack threads, but it looks like it's already been done :pac: There is substantial evidence that the Swedish model is failing to have any positive effect. In my opinion, prostitution should be legal and regulated. It is something that is never going to go away no matter how many laws are passed. We need to accept it and make it as safe and fair as possible for those involved.

'On the whole, the Swedish experience shows that exposing, investigating and bringing to court sex purchase offences that occur indoors are demanding on resources and difficult to prove... The enforcement of the Law on the Purchase of Sex in the indoor market is therefore considered to have had a very little effect as two thirds of prostitution takes place indoors'
page 23
http://www.regjeringen.no/upload/kilde/jd/rap/2004/0034/ddd/pdfv/232216-purchasing_sexual_services_in_sweden_and_the_nederlands.pdf

see also pages 12-14, where it is conceded that there is evidence of increased levels of violence and extortion against sex workers since the 1999 legislation was brought in.

This study showed that sex workers are now far less likely to seek assistance from the police or health services in sweden (not available in english as far as I know)
http://www.rfsu.se/sv/Sex-och-politik/Remisser-och-yttranden/Yttrande-over-betankandet-Forbud-mot-kop-av-sexuell-tjanst-En-utvardering-1999-2008-SOU-201049/

A report issued in 2011 by the Swedish Police Service indicates that between 2008-2010 the number of reported incidences of purchase of sexual services increased by a staggering 569%, from 187 reports in 2008 to 1,251 reports in 2010
page 45
http://polisen.se/Global/www%20och%20Intrapolis/Rapporter-utredningar/01%20Polisen%20nationellt/Organiserad%20brottslighet/slutredovisning_prostit_manniskohandel.pdf

I also found a report showing evidence that a lot of prostitution now takes place just across the borders of Norway/Finland/Denmark. Norway adopted similar legislation to the Swedes in 2009, with approximately the same amount of failure as the Swedes thus far. If I can find it I'll post the link.

IsaacWunder

Bryce Disgusting Treble wrote: »

I hate the hijack threads, but it looks like it's already been done :pac: There is substantial evidence that the Swedish model is failing to have any positive effect. In my opinion, prostitution should be legal and regulated. It is something that is never going to go away no matter how many laws are passed. We need to accept it and make it as safe and fair as possible for those involved.

'On the whole, the Swedish experience shows that exposing, investigating and bringing to court sex purchase offences that occur indoors are demanding on resources and difficult to prove... The enforcement of the Law on the Purchase of Sex in the indoor market is therefore considered to have had a very little effect as two thirds of prostitution takes place indoors'
page 23
http://www.regjeringen.no/upload/kilde/jd/rap/2004/0034/ddd/pdfv/232216-purchasing_sexual_services_in_sweden_and_the_nederlands.pdf

see also pages 12-14, where it is conceded that there is evidence of increased levels of violence and extortion against sex workers since the 1999 legislation was brought in.

This study showed that sex workers are now far less likely to seek assistance from the police or health services in sweden (not available in english as far as I know)
http://www.rfsu.se/sv/Sex-och-politik/Remisser-och-yttranden/Yttrande-over-betankandet-Forbud-mot-kop-av-sexuell-tjanst-En-utvardering-1999-2008-SOU-201049/

A report issued in 2011 by the Swedish Police Service indicates that between 2008-2010 the number of reported incidences of purchase of sexual services increased by a staggering 569%, from 187 reports in 2008 to 1,251 reports in 2010
page 45
http://polisen.se/Global/www%20och%20Intrapolis/Rapporter-utredningar/01%20Polisen%20nationellt/Organiserad%20brottslighet/slutredovisning_prostit_manniskohandel.pdf

I also found a report showing evidence that a lot of prostitution now takes place just across the borders of Norway/Finland/Denmark. Norway adopted similar legislation to the Swedes in 2009, with approximately the same amount of failure as the Swedes thus far. If I can find it I'll post the link.

Politicians don't care about facts or social impact.

They care about lobbyists and focus groups.

Much like drugs, prostitution is outside the mainstream and the lobbying is dominated by hysterical puritan types who have no interest in harm reduction and every interest in "ban this filth" type moral grandstanding.

The Swedish model will be adopted and, like the criminalisaton of drugs, the only winners will be the criminal gangs who will make bigger profits. It's quite depressing, but not surprising.

Sounds

I don't think that politicians are careless, it's that they really have no clue and are basically powerless to do anything.
Someone mentioned about busts, if something is legal then the police, courts are out of pocket, same story with legalizing smoke.
If it's making them money then they are usually all over it, like water rates, taxation etc. anything to keep them in business.

I really think it should stay illegal and the main heads behind the scene should be wiped out, not busted, and that can happen.
It's a shame that there are not more visual anti groups recognized by the law, but people are afraid to do anything.

MarkAnthony

Sounds wrote: »

I don't think that politicians are careless, it's that they really have no clue and are basically powerless to do anything.
Someone mentioned about busts, if something is legal then the police, courts are out of pocket, same story with legalizing smoke.
If it's making them money then they are usually all over it, like water rates, taxation etc. anything to keep them in business.

I really think it should stay illegal and the main heads behind the scene should be wiped out, not busted, and that can happen.
It's a shame that there are not more visual anti groups recognized by the law, but people are afraid to do anything.

I really don't get what you're trying to say here. Firstly prostitution is not illegal in Ireland. You yourself have said you don't have an issue with a girl doing it if she's not involved in organised crime.

You seem to have an issue with organised crime. Organised crime came about because of prohibition. Prohibition doesn't work, it creates organised crime. If you legalise drugs and prostitution you will eliminate much of the organised crime, you still have some because a black market tries to do something cheaper. This can be resolved by regulation and enforcement.

Make something illegal, you remove the possibility of regulation and create huge gains for people involved in organising whatever it is. These gains are so huge that people will kill others to keep their 'turf' and communities are destroyed by scum taking over.

Here's my solution for what it's worth:

-Legalise and regulate prostitution
-Legalise all drugs with the exception of Heroin
-Give Heroin away for free and somewhere to stay when you're high, the only caveat being you have to be on Heroin already.

Portugal had decriminalised possession, the country has not exploded.
The Swiss (IIRC) have a similar heroin policy and it managed to turn the drug from one seen a sexy and rebellious to a down and outs drug.
Canada has had a tolerance zone for sometime with largely positive results. (Closed now?)

Results: A probable but small increase in drug use which would been to be combated by better education and services. Easily paid for by the tax this would generate. Allow employers to discriminate against employees that use drugs in favour of those that don't. Keep the ban on drugs being used by people who want jobs with the guards/army and include all public sector jobs.

80% reduction in domestic burglaries and large reductions in muggings freeing up garda resources to investigate trafficking and provide better border/revenue protections.

An upswing in tourism.

This pie in the sky aside, prohibition simply doesn't work.

Sounds

I agree with you said Mark, I shouldn't have said anything about visual anit, I don't believe in combating crime with crime.
But when I think about the people that are organizing it, it really upsets and angers me that most of them get away with it.
Personally if I knew someone that was involved in prostitution, I wouldn't be happy about it but it would be their choice.
If I knew someone forced to work in prostitution, I don't want to think about how that might end, if the law didn't help.

Recognizing something that you know you can't make go away, and providing services to help people involved...
People unlucky enough to get hooked on heroin or other addictions are sick and it's normal to them, there should be services
to help them if they need it, I'm sure there are services for anyone involved in prostitution if they need to talk to someone.

I hope Ireland never gets like some other European countries, with their tolerance on drugs and prostitution.
It will bring the problems into plain view, they will be selling their services right on the streets, more opening.
I'm sure there are people selling drugs and sex right now but most is done in private, because they know it's wrong.
Why make it legal and give them the opportunity to jump in and continue what they've been doing, but it's ok now because the gov said so.

Sickens me, rambling on a bit now.