DCU SU - Effectiveness?

Jamezzyboyoo · 14-12-2014 2:54pm #1

Hey all,

I've just finished my first semester in DCU, and this may sound like a silly question but, I'm just wondering how effective is our SU?

So far this year, first year's have been blasted with ridiculous videos with people pretending to be drunk but clearly are sober dancing at various events coupled with a sound-track that just makes the video even more cringier!

I don't mean to offend anyone but I'm just looking to find out from other students that have been in DCU longer, what has the SU actually done? When I say the this, I don't mean what has been done at elections, but what the SU does after officials are elected, throughout the year?

Thanks!

XtotheZ · 16-12-2014 2:41pm

Jamezzyboyoo wrote: »

Hey all,

I've just finished my first semester in DCU, and this may sound like a silly question but, I'm just wondering how effective is our SU?

So far this year, first year's have been blasted with ridiculous videos with people pretending to be drunk but clearly are sober dancing at various events coupled with a sound-track that just makes the video even more cringier!

I don't mean to offend anyone but I'm just looking to find out from other students that have been in DCU longer, what has the SU actually done? When I say the this, I don't mean what has been done at elections, but what the SU does after officials are elected, throughout the year?

Thanks!

free condoms

byrneg28 · 22-12-2014 2:14pm

Jamezzyboyoo wrote: »

Hey all,

I've just finished my first semester in DCU, and this may sound like a silly question but, I'm just wondering how effective is our SU?

So far this year, first year's have been blasted with ridiculous videos with people pretending to be drunk but clearly are sober dancing at various events coupled with a sound-track that just makes the video even more cringier!

I don't mean to offend anyone but I'm just looking to find out from other students that have been in DCU longer, what has the SU actually done? When I say the this, I don't mean what has been done at elections, but what the SU does after officials are elected, throughout the year?

Thanks!

Get paid vast sums of money to sit on their hole all day, drink most of the budget and organise parties for themselves and only people they deem necessary to be in the 'clique'

Then ironically campaign against bullying and suicide etc. throughout dates in the year, yet the participate in the exclusion of students who they don't deem 'cool'

amen · 23-12-2014 12:38pm

so why not run for SU and get elected ?

byrneg28 · 23-12-2014 1:01pm

amen wrote: »

so why not run for SU and get elected ?

me? Please use quotes, I've no idea who you are talking to

BasedHobbes · 25-12-2014 5:18am

I used to be a part of the SU click (back when I was a wee first year). DCUSU is nothing to write home about.

In general, the exec aren't bad. The lads and ladies elected as sabbats are usually decent too.

It's the remaining bunch of wannabe politicians and "old boys" that ruin the organization. For example, we now have a "Student Activism" party within the college, which focuses on issues such as Irish Water and abortion. Which would be fine, if it wasn't for the fact that virtually no one gets a say in DCUSU policy outside of the "referendums" they hold. That group of students basically dictate policy and claim the rest stand behind them.

The Class Rep Council are typically no better. They've consistently ignored the prospect of actually helping students (ie. get a microwave for the canteen, provide decent nights in the NuBar, and hold a decent SHAG week) in favour of having a mini Dáíl.

TL;DR - DCUSU doesn't know what it wants to be. Serious change is needed.

thecornflake · 26-12-2014 7:58pm

Finlay wrote: »

I used to be a part of the SU click (back when I was a wee first year). DCUSU is nothing to write home about.

In general, the exec aren't bad. The lads and ladies elected as sabbats are usually decent too.

It's the remaining bunch of wannabe politicians and "old boys" that ruin the organization. For example, we now have a "Student Activism" party within the college, which focuses on issues such as Irish Water and abortion. Which would be fine, if it wasn't for the fact that virtually no one gets a say in DCUSU policy outside of the "referendums" they hold. That group of students basically dictate policy and claim the rest stand behind them.

The Class Rep Council are typically no better. They've consistently ignored the prospect of actually helping students (ie. get a microwave for the canteen, provide decent nights in the NuBar, and hold a decent SHAG week) in favour of having a mini Dáíl.

TL;DR - DCUSU doesn't know what it wants to be. Serious change is needed.

Why I have to pay year after year for those idiots to have their own group of mates in positions within the SU that do nothing for the vast majority of students I will never know.

They are useless people, Id rather it was totally done away with altogether.

Also can someone answer a question I have, Do the SU have anything to do with the running and specifically the hiring of staff in the NuBar ?

Jamezzyboyoo · 03-01-2015 8:29pm

thecornflake wrote: »

Why I have to pay year after year for those idiots to have their own group of mates in positions within the SU that do nothing for the vast majority of students I will never know.

They are useless people, Id rather it was totally done away with altogether.

Also can someone answer a question I have, Do the SU have anything to do with the running and specifically the hiring of staff in the NuBar ?

Nope, the NuBar is run entirely separately, but I'd imagine being a friend of someone high up in the SU would get you a ticket to work behind the bar!

Jamezzyboyoo · 03-01-2015 8:36pm

www. boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055149324 Have a look at this thread. It's on the NuBar.

Morag · 03-01-2015 8:43pm

Wasn't impressed with the lack or awareness and organisation for the National Students March,
given that DCU is back being a part of USI after the vote last year, nothing was done to bring a a block of DCU students to the March.

Had similar issues when I went to put up posters for the March for Choice, despite DCUSU having a prochoice mandate I was given the run around, in the end had to go and permission from college admin to put them, thankfully they stamped them when the SU didn't want to know.

Aside from running Events and seeming to make a LOT of changes to the SU constitution which makes me wary seriously what are they for? The SU Prez is a communications student, he needs to go back and push up on some basics.

Jamezzyboyoo · 03-01-2015 11:18pm

Morag wrote: »

Wasn't impressed with the lack or awareness and organisation for the National Students March,
given that DCU is back being a part of USI after the vote last year, nothing was done to bring a a block of DCU students to the March.

Had similar issues when I went to put up posters for the March for Choice, despite DCUSU having a prochoice mandate I was given the run around, in the end had to go and permission from college admin to put them, thankfully they stamped them when the SU didn't want to know.

Aside from running Events and seeming to make a LOT of changes to the SU constitution which makes me wary seriously what are they for? The SU Prez is a communications student, he needs to go back and push up on some basics.

Similar to the SU's position on Water Charges, nobody within the CRC or SU exec was in any way interested in organizing something toward it, 9 reps out of the entire university were available to protest......disgraceful! The bottom line is, our SU is not active enough, the whole student body from the CRC up to the prez can do so much more than it's doing right now...

BasedHobbes · 04-01-2015 11:59pm

Jamezzyboyoo wrote: »

Similar to the SU's position on Water Charges, nobody within the CRC or SU exec was in any way interested in organizing something toward it, 9 reps out of the entire university were available to protest......disgraceful! The bottom line is, our SU is not active enough, the whole student body from the CRC up to the prez can do so much more than it's doing right now...

Well, no one really gives a sh*te about the SU taking positions on stuff like water charges. I don't want a load of people in QG13 deciding I'm against x, y, or z. They should focus on getting stuff sorted for students first and foremost.

Peregrine · 05-01-2015 12:13am

I don't really want the SU to to get involved in Irish politics unless it's about education policies.

Morag · 05-01-2015 6:05pm

Nim wrote: »

I don't really want the SU to to get involved in Irish politics unless it's about education policies.

Not even the marriage equality referendum?
You don't think they should be advocating activism and informing members?

Jamezzyboyoo · 07-01-2015 10:06pm

Nim wrote: »

I don't really want the SU to to get involved in Irish politics unless it's about education policies.

Finlay wrote: »

Well, no one really gives a sh*te about the SU taking positions on stuff like water charges. I don't want a load of people in QG13 deciding I'm against x, y, or z. They should focus on getting stuff sorted for students first and foremost.

There are those in the Student Body that do believe (me included) it should, you might not care now, but you will 10 years down the line! Also I wouldn't advocate the SU getting involved in day to day politics, but the Water Charges were extremely controversial, and were a major issue in many rural areas, as well as urban areas. They should have been more involved in the protests.

Also there was little or no prior notice given about the USI march against the hike in fees at the beginning of the year, which I thought was very bad. They really need to improve on organizing demonstrations by the time of the marriage equality referendum, and actually show their support instead of an odd word or two at an event or an email the day before a march!

Peregrine · 07-01-2015 10:24pm

Jamezzyboyoo wrote: »

There are those in the Student Body that do believe (me included) it should, you might not care now, but you will 10 years down the line!

You wrongly assume that I don't care. I care very much about politics. I just don't think the Students' Union should be representing or misrepresenting students in politics. It's not their place.

Jamezzyboyoo wrote: »

Also there was little or no prior notice given about the USI march against the hike in fees at the beginning of the year, which I thought was very bad.

Now, that's closer to what the Students' Union's role is and it is disappointing.

Jamezzyboyoo wrote: »

They really need to improve on organizing demonstrations by the time of the marriage equality referendum, and actually show their support instead of an odd word or two at an event or an email the day before a march!

Once again, while I will be voting in the referedum (for equality, if that makes a difference), I just don't think the SU should be organising demonstrations for it. It should encourage people to vote and inform themselves before all elections and referenda, of course, but it has no right to take sides. Where does it end?

Morag wrote: »

Not even the marriage equality referendum?
You don't think they should be advocating activism and informing members?

Encouraging people to vote, of course. Informing members would be the job of the Referendum Commission.

This has nothing to do with the marriage equality referendum, like I said, it's about the SU being involved in Irish politics.

BasedHobbes · 08-01-2015 2:14am

Jamezzyboyoo wrote: »

There are those in the Student Body that do believe (me included) it should, you might not care now, but you will 10 years down the line! Also I wouldn't advocate the SU getting involved in day to day politics, but the Water Charges were extremely controversial, and were a major issue in many rural areas, as well as urban areas. They should have been more involved in the protests.

Also there was little or no prior notice given about the USI march against the hike in fees at the beginning of the year, which I thought was very bad. They really need to improve on organizing demonstrations by the time of the marriage equality referendum, and actually show their support instead of an odd word or two at an event or an email the day before a march!

I have no problem with any organization getting involved in politics, provided the members actually support it. In DCUSU the CRC generally decides on what DCUSU advocates for. This boils down to a group of 30/40 class reps voting on policy in a process that most of the student body has no influence over.

Even worse are the "referendums" in which 1200 (or so, out of a total of 12000) vote on topics. In theory a good idea, but this inevitably boils down to people being cajoled into voting by either the Electoral Committee or the campaigns. Take the USI membership referendum - 670 students voted yes in total, but since they won by one vote, all DCUSU members are also USI members. For context, that's 6% of DCUSU members.

On top of that, you may think the Union is bubbling with activism. It isn't. There's a tiny cohort of students who put forward motions, decide policy, and speak in CRC. Any time this group are "threatened" (ie. held accountable for their actions, or don't get their own way) they kick up a holy fuss over it. I won't name names, but read through a copy of The College View. There's fierce little diversity in the people advocating against Irish Water, for USI, or any of the bandwagons the SU has jumped on in the last few years.

So yeah, I'd much rather a Union without that sh*te. I can make my own mind up about politics and go out and protest without the SU telling the world what my views are. Thanks.

Deckof52 · 31-01-2015 1:46am

BasedHobbes wrote: »

I have no problem with any organization getting involved in politics, provided the members actually support it. In DCUSU the CRC generally decides on what DCUSU advocates for. This boils down to a group of 30/40 class reps voting on policy in a process that most of the student body has no influence over.

Even worse are the "referendums" in which 1200 (or so, out of a total of 12000) vote on topics. In theory a good idea, but this inevitably boils down to people being cajoled into voting by either the Electoral Committee or the campaigns. Take the USI membership referendum - 670 students voted yes in total, but since they won by one vote, all DCUSU members are also USI members. For context, that's 6% of DCUSU members.

On top of that, you may think the Union is bubbling with activism. It isn't. There's a tiny cohort of students who put forward motions, decide policy, and speak in CRC. Any time this group are "threatened" (ie. held accountable for their actions, or don't get their own way) they kick up a holy fuss over it. I won't name names, but read through a copy of The College View. There's fierce little diversity in the people advocating against Irish Water, for USI, or any of the bandwagons the SU has jumped on in the last few years.

So yeah, I'd much rather a Union without that sh*te. I can make my own mind up about politics and go out and protest without the SU telling the world what my views are. Thanks.

The Students' Union is a representative democratic organisation. The majority of policy is decided by the SU Class Representative Council. It's the effective legislative body of the organisation, this is to be expected. It is grossly unfair and untrue to characterise the Council as being outside of the influence of the student body. The student body is the one that elects the membership of the Council!

Also, it is no longer 30 or 40 Class Reps. Thanks to both new rules/rep training the attendance is averaging about 40-50 per cent, in the range of 100-150.

----

So, referendums are also bad. Firstly, you say students have no influence on the Council they elect. Then when a direct ballot is held which gives students direct control you intimate it's a bad thing because an Electoral Committee that tries to engage them in the democratic process and that Campaign Teams try and canvass them to support their position.

There is no doubt that low engagement in elections does cause a democratic deficit. This isn't so much a problem with engagement (which is an issue) this is a problem with structures. The student population of DCU is between 12,000-13,000. That's the headline figure. However, if you break that headline figure down you'll find that 20-25 per cent of students are Postgraduates and 18 per cent are international students. (There'd be some cross over of maybe 2-5 per cent). These student groups are traditionally not engaged with Unions or University life outside their academic pursuits in geneal, for a variety of reasons, across the higher education landscape. The majority of other Unions have rectified this structural issue by introducing Graduate Unions and Graduate Councils, so that there membership is being effected. Regarding, International students and their level of engagement and representation, this is a problem (and one that will continue with HEI's focusing on attracting more) and a similar mechanism will have to be found to resolve this.

So, in reality the Undergraduate population of the university is around the 6,000-7,000 range. This would mean that Union elections which normally reach between 2,000-2,500, have an effective representation of 30%. This totally discounts other factors of students who traditionally cannot participate in the electoral process such as Erasmus, Abroad, Intra and Nursing students.

Regarding referenda, they normally only reach around above 10% of the headline figure or close to half of election turnout. This is because the Union Executive don't and never have put any effort into engagement campaigning. However, this is reflective of the national culture. Elections nearly always have higher turnouts than referenda.

Extrapolating from just the headline figure misconstrues the effective engagement rate and overlooks the different constituencies that make up the university population and their barriers to engagement and representation.

----

You really seem to have a difficulty with the democratic process. This 'cohort' of students you speak of do not decide policy. They put forward motions and speak at CRC. Your characterisation implies that they affect on autocracy. Students, as is their democratic right (which they also pay for through Union membership fees), put forward motions at CRC for Class Reps to consider and vote upon. Class Reps do this as well. Class Reps either support the motions or don't. It is these motions (and referenda) that are Union policy. But it is Class Reps after a discussion and debating process who decide on the motions. The idea that Class Reps are removed from this process is untrue, bizarre and makes no sense.

I don't know what the threatened or held accountable comment is in relation to, but they are participants in the democratic process and unless you can point out some sort of real malfeasance, they are not only not doing anything wrong, civically speaking they are doing everything right.

Diversity? Explain that one.

----

I'd much prefer a Union without the ****e. Although I believe the ****e isn't the people actively participating in the democratic process rather it's those who can't seem to get their ahead around the concept of what a union is for, which is to represent the interests of their membership.

Also, here's the beauty of the Students' Union: you actually can go out and protest without it. It's effectively a confederal organisation, you are not bound by it's policies or decisions. If you feel so aggrieved that it isn't representing you on any level, you have a constitutional right to disassociation and you can vindicate that right at your leisure.

BasedHobbes · 04-02-2015 8:19pm

Deckof52 wrote: »

The Students' Union is a representative democratic organisation. The majority of policy is decided by the SU Class Representative Council. It's the effective legislative body of the organisation, this is to be expected. It is grossly unfair and untrue to characterise the Council as being outside of the influence of the student body. The student body is the one that elects the membership of the Council!

Also, it is no longer 30 or 40 Class Reps. Thanks to both new rules/rep training the attendance is averaging about 40-50 per cent, in the range of 100-150.

As a matter of interest, what is the level of participation in class rep elections? If I recall correctly, not something to write home about.

Excuse me - 100 students out of 8,732 full time students. Very democratic.

So, referendums are also bad. Firstly, you say students have no influence on the Council they elect. Then when a direct ballot is held which gives students direct control you intimate it's a bad thing because an Electoral Committee that tries to engage them in the democratic process and that Campaign Teams try and canvass them to support their position.

The electoral committee cajoles them into voting. I sat on it two years ago - it is literally bribery with sweets to get people to vote. That, or students being dragged in by the various campaigns. Not exactly the hallmark of an interested electorate at all.

There is no doubt that low engagement in elections does cause a democratic deficit. This isn't so much a problem with engagement (which is an issue) this is a problem with structures. The student population of DCU is between 12,000-13,000. That's the headline figure. However, if you break that headline figure down you'll find that 20-25 per cent of students are Postgraduates and 18 per cent are international students. (There'd be some cross over of maybe 2-5 per cent). These student groups are traditionally not engaged with Unions or University life outside their academic pursuits in geneal, for a variety of reasons, across the higher education landscape. The majority of other Unions have rectified this structural issue by introducing Graduate Unions and Graduate Councils, so that there membership is being effected. Regarding, International students and their level of engagement and representation, this is a problem (and one that will continue with HEI's focusing on attracting more) and a similar mechanism will have to be found to resolve this.

So, in reality the Undergraduate population of the university is around the 6,000-7,000 range. This would mean that Union elections which normally reach between 2,000-2,500, have an effective representation of 30%. This totally discounts other factors of students who traditionally cannot participate in the electoral process such as Erasmus, Abroad, Intra and Nursing students.

The assumption that postgrad / international students don't engage with elections/referenda is a bit of a stretch. Having sat at those voting booths, there was a proportionate amount of both. You're assuming that the level of engagement with the SU overall is what dictates who votes, when it really falls to blind luck and confectionery.

Regarding referenda, they normally only reach around above 10% of the headline figure or close to half of election turnout. This is because the Union Executive don't and never have put any effort into engagement campaigning. However, this is reflective of the national culture. Elections nearly always have higher turnouts than referenda.

The exec always run awareness campaigns - they even extended the labyrinth referendum despite virtually no interest from the student body. The simple fact is that students don't care.

Extrapolating from just the headline figure misconstrues the effective engagement rate and overlooks the different constituencies that make up the university population and their barriers to engagement and representation.

Ditto.

You really seem to have a difficulty with the democratic process.

I have absolutely no problem grasping how democracy works. I also have no problem in understanding that DCUSU severely lacks same.

This 'cohort' of students you speak of do not decide policy. They put forward motions and speak at CRC. Your characterisation implies that they affect on autocracy.
Students, as is their democratic right (which they also pay for through Union membership fees), put forward motions at CRC for Class Reps to consider and vote upon. Class Reps do this as well. Class Reps either support the motions or don't. It is these motions (and referenda) that are Union policy. But it is Class Reps after a discussion and debating process who decide on the motions. The idea that Class Reps are removed from this process is untrue, bizarre and makes no sense.

That's simply not true. You can harp on about how great the debate is, or how much participation there is, but a cursory view of the minutes of the last few CRC meetings on DCUSU.ie reveals that neither are true. There is a small group of students who actually engage in the meetings, and a far greater handful who sit there and blindly vote.

Diversity? Explain that one.

The emergence of a "Student Activism Network" (or whatever that joke of an organization is called) demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about. Student politics attracts a very particular type of person, who thinks that the union is something that it is not. You are one of those people. As are your colleagues.

I'd much prefer a Union without the ****e. Although I believe the ****e isn't the people actively participating in the democratic process rather it's those who can't seem to get their ahead around the concept of what a union is for, which is to represent the interests of their membership.

The interests of SU members, by and large, are having the craic at college, an affordable gym, representation on educational boards, more books in the library etc. They are not interested in taking a stance on Palestine, or Irish Water, or introducing more useless officers, and so on. That is where the ****e is.

Also, here's the beauty of the Students' Union: you actually can go out and protest without it. It's effectively a confederal organisation, you are not bound by it's policies or decisions. If you feel so aggrieved that it isn't representing you on any level, you have a constitutional right to disassociation and you can vindicate that right at your leisure.

Exactly - we don't need a political union. Students are very much capable of expressing their political views like every other person in the Irish state.

And as for disassociation, I'd rather not lose the actual benefits union membership endows (none of which are political).

PanicStations · 05-02-2015 11:14am

I'd be happy if the SU could organise a microwave and kettle for me to heat up my own lunch. :rolleyes:

BasedHobbes · 05-02-2015 12:30pm

PanicStations wrote: »

I'd be happy if the SU could organise a microwave and kettle for me to heat up my own lunch. :rolleyes:

But sure mate, don't you feel great that we've a stance on the gay blood ban and on Irish Water? /s

PanicStations · 05-02-2015 7:26pm

Basic needs come first. If the SU can help me get fed and watered cheaply, then I'll start thinking about campaigns.

Deckof52 · 08-02-2015 12:54am

BasedHobbes wrote: »

As a matter of interest, what is the level of participation in class rep elections? If I recall correctly, not something to write home about.

Excuse me - 100 students out of 8,732 full time students. Very democratic.

The electoral committee cajoles them into voting. I sat on it two years ago - it is literally bribery with sweets to get people to vote. That, or students being dragged in by the various campaigns. Not exactly the hallmark of an interested electorate at all.

The assumption that postgrad / international students don't engage with elections/referenda is a bit of a stretch. Having sat at those voting booths, there was a proportionate amount of both. You're assuming that the level of engagement with the SU overall is what dictates who votes, when it really falls to blind luck and confectionery.

The exec always run awareness campaigns - they even extended the labyrinth referendum despite virtually no interest from the student body. The simple fact is that students don't care.

Ditto.

I have absolutely no problem grasping how democracy works. I also have no problem in understanding that DCUSU severely lacks same.

That's simply not true. You can harp on about how great the debate is, or how much participation there is, but a cursory view of the minutes of the last few CRC meetings on DCUSU.ie reveals that neither are true. There is a small group of students who actually engage in the meetings, and a far greater handful who sit there and blindly vote.

The emergence of a "Student Activism Network" (or whatever that joke of an organization is called) demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about. Student politics attracts a very particular type of person, who thinks that the union is something that it is not. You are one of those people. As are your colleagues.

The interests of SU members, by and large, are having the craic at college, an affordable gym, representation on educational boards, more books in the library etc. They are not interested in taking a stance on Palestine, or Irish Water, or introducing more useless officers, and so on. That is where the ****e is.

Exactly - we don't need a political union. Students are very much capable of expressing their political views like every other person in the Irish state.

And as for disassociation, I'd rather not lose the actual benefits union membership endows (none of which are political).

1.) It varies from class to class. The majority of Class Rep positions are uncontested. You know people are allowed avail of the corollary of their right to vote.

Yes it is very democratic (or rather republican!) it's a representative body, it's in the title, Class Representative Council.

2.) Cajoling is a more derogatory way of saying engaging. It's their job to try and engage the electorate. You must think that your fellow students are fickle minded pushovers if they opt to vote after being persuaded by a campaign group. Some people maybe just want to be engaged, and haven't been before. The end of this scenario however is they can opt not to vote, as is their right. There's a world of difference from being culturally disengaged from a students' union and a want to be disenfranchised from it, which is what is implied by your commentary.

3.) I can't speak towards international students voting behaviour, only to say that the majority I have met never seem to be informed of their rights within their Union. There is absolutely no level of postgraduate electoral engagement to talk home about, the PG Officer position has never gotten more than 10% of the total PG population. So, I can't speak to your experience but the voting data definitely does not support your claims.

It does. If you have been engaged and informed by the SU, you are more likely to vote. First years are the ones where most engagement effort is put in year on year and they have one of the largest shares of the GE vote and make up the largest proportion of Class Reps year on year.

4.) No. They do not. They never run awareness campaigns. The most is a few graphics on facebook and some emails. That does not constitute engagement in my book. I think it would be fair to say that if the same effort was put into their elections as referendum campaigns, then turnout in these would double. But it is farcical to say they run real and active awareness campaigns. They do the bare minimum, which obviously isn't enough.

5.) You do have a problem with grasping the democratic process. I can't see where your difficulty lies, but it exists. We operate the same democratic model that every western democratic state and organisation uses, with the same inherent principles. Yet, you criticize a representative body for being small in number (ignoring the inherent nature of representative bodies) and you then criticize both the students who are trying to engage students in direct ballots and the students themselves for engaging. it's bizarre.

6.) Engagement isn't merely talking. There are those who prefer to talk and those who prefer to listen. Is not speaking a form of disengagement? Is reserving ones judgement to the voting process disengagement? No, its a ridiculous statement to make without evidence that it exists. It is just plain crude and arrogant to believe that speaking denotes engagement. Also, not all the minutes note all comments made during a meeting. There are very few minutes that actually do this. Normally, it's just a record of action points alongside comments that are deemed relevant by the secretary.

7.) That's true. It does. They are the people who seek to be more informed and more engaged and use that knowledge to advance the interests of the student body. It has been these people who believe the Union is an inherently political body (in its actual meaning, not some bizarre molestation of it!) who have advanced the interests of the student body.

8.) So in your words:

"The interests of SU members, by and large, are having the craic at college, an affordable gym, representation on educational boards, more books in the library etc. They are not interested in taking a stance on Palestine, or Irish Water, or introducing more useless officers, and so on. That is where the ****e is. "

How can somebody have the craic in college if they can't afford to stay in college because of the rise in fees? How can someone have the craic in college if they are no longer able to avail of a grant? How can someone have the craic in college if their monies are drained by rising costs of accommodation or direct levies such as water charges? These challenges if they are to be met necessitate inherently political resolutions. The reality is that these realities aren't created by university governance, but rather by central government. So, that's where the battle is. Unless 'having the craic' is just for those who can afford and the rest can be damned?

9.) They absolutely are capable and when they feel strongly about a particular issue they will use every avenue available to advance their viewpoint. Here's a reality I think some students realise and most are starting to realise. Their is no access to political participation in this country due to a variety of reasons, this is even true within most political parties. Being a member of a union that offers organisational, financial and communal infrastructure gives members support, where otherwise they would be isolated. Being in a union makes you more powerful. Being outside of one makes you less powerful. So, personally I'd rather communicate to students that the real world post degree is dark and that they are alone post degree. But that they have three years to try and affect change so that not only is their economic and social status within society not diminished, but also that you have the chance to improve things for those who are coming after you. I think that's a pretty convincing argument and students have been agreeing with this more and more.

An anti-political union is a passivity that borders on a form of personal masochism and a form of ideological sadism towards those who come after you.

10.) Yup. Silly we don't have cooking facilities. Maybe if people actually took some effort to elect candidates who will follow mandates, this would change. When you opt out of electoral and other engagement, you're all but ensuring that you will never get what you want, even regarding the small things such as a microwave.

Jamezzyboyoo · 04-05-2015 11:07pm

**whip noises**

DCU SU - Effectiveness?

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