Sanitation of kids stories

Pawwed Rig

One thing that has really annoyed me since becoming a parent is the rewriting of stories to give a more sanitised ending.
hooplakidz dooes a Humpty Dumpty where he gets put together again in the end.
Oranges and Lemons is rarely if ever included with the last 2 lines of the rhyme.
I read Jack and the Beanstalk yesterday where the giant climbed back up the beanstalk before Jack chopped it down*.

Are kids really that delicate?
Anyone have any other examples?

*Oh and Jack was a thieving little s*** with no redeeming features whatsoever.

looksee

Most traditional stories and rhymes were not children's stories at all. If you read the origins of Sleeping Beauty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeping_Beauty - read Basile's narrative about half way down - it is a folk tale and was not even remotely suitable for children with elements of abandonment, rape, double crossing, infanticide etc. It has been toned down and sanitised several times already.

So how far back do you want to go ? Most nursery rhymes are actually political commentaries and often have unsavoury hints if you examine them closely. In many of them the words have changed several times anyway. Children just enjoy them for their rhythm and the words do not make much impression. Just go with the older versions if you prefer, or accept the newer ones.

pwurple

Most of our fairy tale books are very old ones from when I was small, so we get the full gore. 3 yr olds love that stuff! Digging the granny out of the wolf's stomach etc. The little mermaid original version freaks me out, but she is OK with it.

The old noddy ones are very un-pc though. Golliwogs from the wrong part of town and the rest. Can't bring myself to read those without skipping those bits.

It's songs too though. I have an old record of children's songs. I love them, but they are the height of un-pc now. Swinging on a star is one of them.
http://fan.tcm.com/video/swinging-on-a-star-going-my-way

um7y1h83ge06nx

Ring a Ring a Rosey is all about dying from the plague and stuffing your pockets full of posey in an attempt to keep it away. The rings are blotches on the skin which were symptoms.

And although not big here let's not start on the May pole. :-)

looksee

Kaiser Damp Thumbtack wrote: »

Ring a Ring a Rosey is all about dying from the plague and stuffing your pockets full of posey in an attempt to keep it away. The rings are blotches on the skin which were symptoms.

And although not big here let's not start on the May pole. :-)

Not to be argumentative, but just interested apparently the theory about ring a rosy only appeared in I think the 1950s or thereabouts, and do not stand up to inspection. Also there are other nationality versions which do not back up the plague idea. The whole area of folk tales and rhymes is very interesting!

um7y1h83ge06nx

Interesting, never knew it was in doubt. Must start googling! :-)

Rosy Posy

Children love slightly dark stories. Maurice Sendak is great for that- BumbleArdy is a favourite of my kids', and Outside Over There. All of Roald Dahl too, obviously.

IvyTheTerrible

My mother sent me a package of the redesigned Ladybird fairy tales recently for my son. While the pictures have changed, the stories are just as dark as ever!

(Yes the giant dies, two of the three little pigs are eaten - why doesn't the third little pig put them up? why is he so happy after the brutal deaths of his brothers? Could grandmother REALLY emerge unscathed from the wolf's stomach?)

eviltwin

I refuse to read the new versions, kids can take the gore, sure that is half the fun. I'm working my way through the Roald Dahl collection with my 5 year old. He loves them and no nightmares yet.

Xdancer

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

My mother sent me a package of the redesigned Ladybird fairy tales recently for my son. While the pictures have changed, the stories are just as dark as ever!

(Yes the giant dies, two of the three little pigs are eaten - why doesn't the third little pig put them up? why is he so happy after the brutal deaths of his brothers? Could grandmother REALLY emerge unscathed from the wolf's stomach?)

My mother sent my the same package about a year ago My daughter loves them too. We have to read one every night before bed. The gore doesn't seem to bother her at all.
Although in Little Red Riding Hood, the woodcutter doesn't have to cut them out of the wolf´s stomach.

IvyTheTerrible

Xdancer wrote: »

My mother sent my the same package about a year ago My daughter loves them too. We have to read one every night before bed. The gore doesn't seem to bother her at all.
Although in Little Red Riding Hood, the woodcutter doesn't have to cut them out of the wolf´s stomach.

L likes shouting Fee Fi Fo Fum (he sometimes thinks is THREE FOUR FIVE because it sounds the same!) around the place, it's funny because he's so small!

Das Kitty

Some modern ones can be quite dark too. For instance, I Want My Hat Back, by John Klassen, in which a naughty bunny steals a bear's hat and suffers the consequences.

mohawk

My 5 year old loves any story that involves someone being eaten. He has an evil streak in him.
We have a good few usbourne story books and the fairy tales are tamer then I remember. I must try the ladybird books. The more people/animals that get eaten the better!!

byhookorbycrook

Let's not forget what happened to Peter Rabbit's daddy!

ch750536

Amazing timing! I read a lot to my kids and really appreciayed the reality of Michael Murpurgo. I decided to write my own kids book (due to be published 23rd). Anyway, I hate disney, fluff, happy endings etc so the book turned out to be a little dark. I submitted to two editors who came back with the feedback of 'too scary and needs a happy ending, parents want kids to sleep at night'.

Amazon gave the same feedback.

So I spent a little time looking into it and most 'fairy tales' were originally very dark and rarely had happy endings. Often they were gruesome too. Think about burning the witch (Hansel & Gretel) - I found that in the original version they watched her burn and prodded her with sticks, laughing until she moved no more. Just one example of books pre-disneyfication.

Anyway, I decided to stick with the scary, unhappy ending.

Pawwed Rig

What I love about them is the political aspect and the origin story. Where Humpty gets put together again doesn't really peak the curiousity.

Also when you have a line in a kids rhyme
'Here comes a candle to light you to bed
Her comes a chopper top chop off your head'
This is the whole point of the rhyme. Otherwise it is just a nice story about bells.
I alsways loved the gruesome when I was a kid but I think parents are way too protective now.

whelzer

Philip Pullman has a book of re-done Grimm tales - dark does not come close!

My 10 and 8 year boys love them - we are talking some crazy stuff, parents cutting heads of children, a king killing his twin babies, peoples hands getting chopped off. A lot of body bits being removed!

evolving_doors

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

One thing that has really annoyed me since becoming a parent is the rewriting of stories to give a more sanitised ending.
hooplakidz dooes a Humpty Dumpty where he gets put together again in the end.
Oranges and Lemons is rarely if ever included with the last 2 lines of the rhyme.
I read Jack and the Beanstalk yesterday where the giant climbed back up the beanstalk before Jack chopped it down*.

Are kids really that delicate?
Anyone have any other examples?

*Oh and Jack was a thieving little s*** with no redeeming features whatsoever.

I remember some backstory about the giant being responsible for the death of Jacks Dad!
He got what was coming to him.

Pawwed Rig

Armelodie wrote: »

I remember some backstory about the giant being responsible for the death of Jacks Dad!
He got what was coming to him.

That rings a bell actually but wasn't included in the story I read the other night.

Mink

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Also when you have a line in a kids rhyme
'Here comes a candle to light you to bed
Her comes a chopper top chop off your head'
This is the whole point of the rhyme. Otherwise it is just a nice story about bells.
I alsways loved the gruesome when I was a kid but I think parents are way too protective now.

There's another 2 lines after that "chip chop chip chop, the last man's dead". I have a CD of nursery rhymes with this version. It's on continuous play in the car under threat of meltdown from my 2.5yr old.

I often make the gesture of my hand cutting my head off when that part comes on... what's wrong with me?

Sligo1

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AIIj0mBX1jU

It's just not the same is it???!!! It kinda makes me cringe just a lil bit....

Pawwed Rig

Goldilocks - Another thieving little s***. How is she the hero of that story?

Breaking and entering, tresspass, destruction of property, theft. Not really a good example for my little lad. I'm with the bears on this one. In my version of the story she will be eaten

Pawwed Rig

Sligo1 wrote: »

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AIIj0mBX1jU

It's just not the same is it???!!! It kinda makes me cringe just a lil bit....

Wow, that is awful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOpFVsiKdSI

tinkerbell

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Goldilocks - Another thieving little s***. How is she the hero of that story?

Breaking and entering, tresspass, destruction of property, theft. Not really a good example for my little lad. I'm with the bears on this one. In my version of the story she will be eaten

ROFL

Rosy Posy

Saw a review of The Original Folk and Fairy Tales of the Brothers Grimm translated by Jack Zipes in the Guardian- apparently the current edition of Grimms Fairy Tales is the seventh and most sanitised, this is the first English translation of the first edition. I might put a copy on the Christmas list, for myself at least.

Mink

I'd say the original versions of these fairy tales is what Game of Thrones is really based on.

skallywag

The Pied Piper has to be one of the most horrific to be fair, I don't think I've ever seen a sanitised version of that one yet?

Pawwed Rig

skallywag wrote: »

The Pied Piper has to be one of the most horrific to be fair, I don't think I've ever seen a sanitised version of that one yet?

Oh I have. The last one I read the people revolted and fired the Mayor. Then paid the Piper to return the kids

Rosy Posy

Mink wrote: »

I'd say the original versions of these fairy tales is what Game of Thrones is really based on.

Let's not go down that rabbit hole

skallywag

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Oh I have. The last one I read the people revolted and fired the Mayor. Then paid the Piper to return the kids

I've just researched it a bit and it seems that the original story may actually have a truthful historical basis to it re the children disappearing for one reason or another. Pretty dark stuff indeed ...

Sligo1

skallywag wrote: »

I've just researched it a bit and it seems that the original story may actually have a truthful historical basis to it re the children disappearing for one reason or another. Pretty dark stuff indeed ...

Yea I googled it aswell!! Kinda gave me a bit of a chill tbh

cashback

This article from today's 'i' newspaper talks about the same thing, though slightly more focused on children's animation.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/any-child-knows-that-cartoon-violence-isnt-real-9931736.html

skallywag

cashback wrote: »

This article from today's 'i' newspaper talks about the same thing, though slightly more focused on children's animation.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/any-child-knows-that-cartoon-violence-isnt-real-9931736.html

Can the likes of this really be bad for kids? I honestly don't think so.

syklops

pwurple wrote: »

The old noddy ones are very un-pc though. Golliwogs from the wrong part of town and the rest. Can't bring myself to read those without skipping those bits.

Why would it affect how you enjoy them? I dont really get the Anti-golliwog movement.

pwurple

syklops wrote: »

Why would it affect how you enjoy them? I dont really get the Anti-golliwog movement.

Well, the golliwog is a parody of black people, and they are being portrayed as universally stupid in the books. You know, generic racism really.

evolving_doors

pwurple wrote: »

Well, the golliwog is a parody of black people, and they are being portrayed as universally stupid in the books. You know, generic racism really.

Although every protagonist is somewhat stupid (in the innocent sense). Hence the teaching of children how not to be stupid.
The golliwog is a contentious one though..

I think in case society ever does break down we need to have our kids awake to the fact that theres nice people who will help... but not nice people if the law of land breaks down.

Pawwed Rig

I still have an old Enid Blyton book around the place somewhere called 'The Three Golliwogs'. It starts off with

There once was three Golliwogs called Golly, Woggy and N****r.

That kind of sanitation I can handle. Alot of the English stories from the early parts of the 20th century are hoplessly racist

Rosy Posy

I was cringing reading Narnia to my kids- it's so racist! The evil brown Calormenes, with their strange customs and false gods!

Pawwed Rig

Rosy Posy wrote: »

I was cringing reading Narnia to my kids- it's so racist! The evil brown Calormenes, with their strange customs and false gods!

Well Narnia is a thinly veiled religious text anyway (the execution and the ressurection, the creation, the evil one etc etc). Wonderful stories for a child though I don't recall the racism in them. I was looking forward to reading them to the little lad

IvyTheTerrible

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I still have an old Enid Blyton book around the place somewhere called 'The Three Golliwogs'. It starts off with

There once was three Golliwogs called Golly, Woggy and N****r.

That kind of sanitation I can handle. Alot of the English stories from the early parts of the 20th century are hoplessly racist

I agree. I think editing of this sort of thing is ok, because it's just racism for the sake of racism. I don't agree with the editing of Huckleberry Finn, though, because the point of using the word "******" was to show how racist that society was.

Rosy Posy

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Well Narnia is a thinly veiled religious text anyway (the execution and the ressurection, the creation, the evil one etc etc). Wonderful stories for a child though I don't recall the racism in them. I was looking forward to reading them to the little lad

We still read them to them and they enjoyed them. Hopefully the subtext went over their heads. I certainly didn't pick up on that when I read them as a kid.

I read some of CS Lewis' philosophical and theological stuff at college. It was just a different world, without much notion of multiculturalism or tolerance.

MistyCheese

I think kids generally have a higher tolerance for this kind of thing. My sister used to watch this cartoon Grizzly Tales For Gruesome Kids and some of the stuff was quite freaky. In these cartoons various little girls and boys have got sucked into a vacuum cleaner, died in the blades of a lawnmower, got run over by a steamroller, got squashed into a bottle, turned into a stone gargoyle and more. Not a bother on her.

And I rememer in Roald Dahls The Witches a child was sucked into a painting. The rest of the family could see her in the painting getting older. Witches take special pleasure in transforming children into animals that adults will kill and then eat, apparently, such as a pheasant or mackerel. Didn't mind when I was 8. I'd probably freak out more now.

pwurple

I think a lot of the Grimm brothers one were self-censored to make them suitable for children. Sleeping beauty was pretty full on originally. I read the old version where the prince couldn't wake her from the sleep... So he rapes her. She gives birth to twins, still unconscious, and one of them sucks on her fingers instead of her breasts, sucking the poison out and waking her. She then decides to cook the babies and serve them to him (or something like that, memory is hazy!).

They were aimed at entertaining adults rather than children. Don't think I'll be introducing my children to that version for a while!

Sligo1

pwurple wrote: »

I think a lot of the Grimm brothers one were self-censored to make them suitable for children. Sleeping beauty was pretty full on originally. I read the old version where the prince couldn't wake her from the sleep... So he rapes her. She gives birth to twins, still unconscious, and one of them sucks on her fingers instead of her breasts, sucking the poison out and waking her. She then decides to cook the babies and serve them to him (or something like that, memory is hazy!).

They were aimed at entertaining adults rather than children. Don't think I'll be introducing my children to that version for a while!

Omg!!!