new windows and doors = open zone 2

steo2k9

We've had an alarm years and since getting new windows in and refitting the sensors trying to set the alarm gives you a red light beside 2 (open zone 2) problem is that's every window and the back door on that zone. I even went around removing the shock sensors and just connecting the wires on one window at a time (the windows don't have reed switches) then putting the sensor back then going to the next one to try but everytime it just says 2 is open.

I seen that the cylinder should have an arrow and it should point up but these don't they just have a line on them that I just placed vertically on each one. Anyone have any ideas what could be wrong?

Also the reason I was removing them was to rule out a bad sensor

kub

Go to the first window and short out the pair going to your panel and see if the fault clears.

Could you by any chance post a picture of the sensors you have.

You may also have cable damage, it can sometimes happen in these circumstances.

steo2k9

kub wrote: »

Go to the first window and short out the pair going to your panel and see if the fault clears.

Could you by any chance post a picture of the sensors you have.

You may also have cable damage, it can sometimes happen in these circumstances.

Thanks for replying. There's no tamper wired up there's just a blue and a yellow cable and the cable goes into the attic first then comes down into the bedrooms and bathroom then loops from the backroom sensor down to the kitchen. Here a picture of the sensor cover and one of the sensor heads that I have the line vertical on.

Cant post links for some reason it's saying I'm a new user even though I'm registered since 2009 but just change the xs hxxp://s25.postimg.org/3xtcia0xr/14183207185381609736205.jpg

Suppose I'll try putting the lines horizontal it'll probably make more sense seeing as it lines up with the back casing

kub

Sorry for the delay, i had to open your link on a computer. What you have there are those old Shorrock sensors.

Do you have a multimeter?

steo2k9

kub wrote: »

Sorry for the delay, i had to open your link on a computer. What you have there are those old Shorrock sensors.

Do you have a multimeter?

I don't at the minute but it's one thing I want to get a hold of. They are fairly old sensors probably about 12 years old. The battery went in the alarm too and it's not charging batteries but a charged one works if you put it in. I heard a blown fuse causes that but that's not as important for now it's the open zone to sort out first and there's one room I didn't disconnect yet to rule out a broken cable and I have a feeling that it'll be what's causing it. I'll let you know tomorrow.

steo2k9

I didn't get back around to it yet but the way the cable goes up into the attic then comes down to the windows I'm wondering is a cable broke in the attic because there were people in insulating it during spring. I'll have to get up and check that and hopefully they didn't cover it up.

kub

steo2k9 wrote: »

I didn't get back around to it yet but the way the cable goes up into the attic then comes down to the windows I'm wondering is a cable broke in the attic because there were people in insulating it during spring. I'll have to get up and check that and hopefully they didn't cover it up.

Did the system operate after the insulation lads left the house?
Was the system working just before you changed out the windows?

steo2k9

kub wrote: »

Did the system operate after the insulation lads left the house?
Was the system working just before you changed out the windows?

I think it was still working after the insulation but not too sure. After the windows were changed the sensors were left hanging for ages and I'm not sure if they're back on in the right position.

kub

How is that multimeter coming along

steo2k9

kub wrote: »

How is that multimeter coming along

Just ordered one online I'll let you know when I get it.

steo2k9

Just got the multimeter today and tried it on batteries to test on volt test and it works. Not to sure how to use it yet apart from that it has lots of settings.

kub

Good so the function we are looking for is ohms........it is like an upside u made nice and round.

Or is there a setting that when you put the two prongs together that the meter buzzes?

steo2k9

kub wrote: »

Good so the function we are looking for is ohms........it is like an upside u made nice and round.

Or is there a setting that when you put the two prongs together that the meter buzzes?

I've got ohms alright and there's no buzz setting but there's like an arrow with a line in front of it

steo2k9

Found out how to use it and tested all the sensors and they all work. 2 didn't but I moved them and they started working but the alarm still says zone 2 when it's set. There's a floor in the attic under the insulation and the wires were buried under the floor so nothing could've got at them. I don't get what way the wiring works though on that zone because the front door is wired to zone 1 fairly simple with 2 wires but zone 2 has the terminals looped with a blue wire and another blue wire running from the second part of the terminal like from the blue wire. Kind of like a u shape where the bottom right of the u is the second wire if you know what I mean but I don't know where the yellow wire goes because the sensors have yellows.

By the way when the battery died the user code was reset so I'm wondering did the programming reset too. If so zone 2 will be zone type 4 walk through instead of 3 alarm by default. Would that affect it?

kub

Ok firstly let's not rule anything out. So can you please remove the 2 cables that are currently connected to zone 2 and check them with your meter please?
While you are at it, connect in a piece of cable between the 2 terminals of zone 2 and then try and set your system.
By the way what control panel have you?

steo2k9

kub wrote: »

Ok firstly let's not rule anything out. So can you please remove the 2 cables that are currently connected to zone 2 and check them with your meter please?
While you are at it, connect in a piece of cable between the 2 terminals of zone 2 and then try and set your system.
By the way what control panel have you?

It's an ademco accord xpc with 8 zones and the tamper day and power LEDs. I'll try doing that later on and let you know but whatever way it's wired it looks like one cable bridging to both terminals on the zone. When I switch off the power the external bell will sound so I'll wait until later to do it and let you know.

steo2k9

Here's a picture of it here (had to use hxxp)

hxxp://s25.postimg.org/3yst95y67/DSC_0191.jpg

Notice how the zones that are not in use have been closed off and 3 of the 4 used zones have the 2 wires but zone 2 only has the one blue wire being looped to both terminals. I don't get where the yellow loops back to and how that worked because the zone can't open with the cable bridging can it?

altor

steo2k9 wrote: »

Here's a picture of it here (had to use hxxp)

hxxp://s25.postimg.org/3yst95y67/DSC_0191.jpg

Notice how the zones that are not in use have been closed off and 3 of the 4 used zones have the 2 wires but zone 2 only has the one blue wire being looped to both terminals. I don't get where the yellow loops back to and how that worked because the zone can't open with the cable bridging can it?

The two cores in the zone close off at the last device on the loop.
Yellow and red for one zone.
Yellow and blue for the other one.

steo2k9

altor wrote: »

The two cores in the zone close off at the last device on the loop.
Yellow and red for one zone.
Yellow and blue for the other one.

Thanks I get it now. There's obviously something wrong somewhere then. When I remove a shock sensor from any upstairs window and test the 2 cables with the multimeter I get no connection on them but I think the front door red and yellow is the same but still works. I'm getting a connection on each window shock sensor and the back door sensor when I test them with everything connected up so there's no faulty sensors as far as I know and I tried testing the back door sensor away from the magnet and it showed open. All windows and the back door are on zone 2 so that's where it gets confusing. There's 7 windows and the way it looks to me my backroom is the one that loops down to the kitchen to the back door and both kitchen windows because I get a loop back from the cable.on the multimeter with it connected. I understand now that the loop has to return to the terminals through the blue and that yellow and obviously isn't so I'll check further tomorrow if I get a chance. Thanks for the reply.

KoolKid

The correct way to do this and trace the problem would be to identify the cable at the first window going back to the panel. Close that cable off, meter it out and connect to the panel and check the zone is closed. After that add to the next window and repeat. Etc..
There are other things to consider.
The panel itself may have a fault.
The cables in junctions may change over to other colours.
More than one device may be faulty.
There may be any combination of the above.

steo2k9

KoolKid wrote: »

The correct way to do this and trace the problem would be to identify the cable at the first window going back to the panel. Close that cable off, meter it out and connect to the panel and check the zone is closed. After that add to the next window and repeat. Etc..
There are other things to consider.
The panel itself may have a fault.
The cables in junctions may change over to other colours.
More than one device may be faulty.
There may be any combination of the above.

There's a cable going straight into the attic like running up the skirting boards to the top of the stairs into the attic and they're under a floor in the attic so I'm not even sure which window is first. I know the front room has the 2 cables like one from the attic and one going back into the attic and leading to the room beside it whereas the bathroom only has one cable coming down to the sensor and the backroom is the same but has the kitchen linked up. If it ends up being a damaged cable up there it must be the people that put the extractor fan in the bathroom since the wires were under a floor for years.

Edit: now that I look at it it turns out there is only one cable coming from the front room and loopino down to the sitting room. I did remove one sensor from the sitting room window because we got rid of the bay window but I don't think that would cause it it was only on a loop from the first sensor to the second one.

altor

steo2k9 wrote: »

There's a cable going straight into the attic like running up the skirting boards to the top of the stairs into the attic and they're under a floor in the attic so I'm not even sure which window is first. I know the front room has the 2 cables like one from the attic and one going back into the attic and leading to the room beside it whereas the bathroom only has one cable coming down to the sensor and the backroom is the same but has the kitchen linked up. If it ends up being a damaged cable up there it must be the people that put the extractor fan in the bathroom since the wires were under a floor for years.

Edit: now that I look at it it turns out there is only one cable coming from the front room and loopino down to the sitting room. I did remove one sensor from the sitting room window because we got rid of the bay window but I don't think that would cause it it was only on a loop from the first sensor to the second one.

The single cable at the sensor would be the last device on that loop.
I would work back from there with the meter.

KoolKid

@ Steo.
It sounds like there may be some cables seriesed in at the junction in the attic.
If it were me that's where I would start find the pair from the panel & see how many cables that's connected to.
Separate them & close the cable going to the panel.If that's good meter out any cables it was feeding & join then back together in series. When you left with the open on trace that device by device .

steo2k9

KoolKid wrote: »

@ Steo.
It sounds like there may be some cables seriesed in at the junction in the attic.
If it were me that's where I would start find the pair from the panel & see how many cables that's connected to.
Separate them & close the cable going to the panel.If that's good meter out any cables it was feeding & join then back together in series. When you left with the open on trace that device by device .

Thanks for the advice. I reckon it'll be the bathroom if it's a broken cable and I'd say it was when they put in the extractor fan. The fact that the wires are buried makes it more likely.

altor

steo2k9 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice. I reckon it'll be the bathroom if it's a broken cable and I'd say it was when they put in the extractor fan. The fact that the wires are buried makes it more likely.

If you think that is the problem area you could try closing off the cable at both ends (Control panel and last sensor) and see if it bells. At lease you will have a starting point to check for other cores that might be working before trying to put in a new cable.