Do you feel that FF are getting off light?

jetsonx

As thousands take to the streets about the water charges today - the two architects of Ireland's downfall Ahern and Cowen were pictured grinning in Kerry yesterday.

Do you think that while FG (as bad as they are) clean up the mess, FF are getting off rather lightly?

Chips Lovell

Polls don't have them staging that much of a comeback really.

RandomName2

jetsonx wrote: »

As thousands take to the streets about the water charges today - the two architects of Ireland's downfall Ahern and Cowen were pictured grinning in Kerry yesterday.

Do you think that while FG (as bad as they are) clean up the mess, FF are getting off rather lightly?

I'd vote for them if

a) they seemed to understand how they messed up the economy
b) they seemed unlikely to repeat past mistakes
c) they weren't so slippery that you could feel safe that they wouldn't consider a coalition with SF.

There's a couple of other things about FF that are on my wishlist; but those three are pretty crucial. I don't know about anybody else - but I'd say at least the first one is a priority for many voters.

"IT WAS DA LEHMANS BROTHERS FAULT!"

eigrod

RandomName2 wrote: »

I'd vote for them if

a) they seemed to understand how they messed up the economy
b) they seemed unlikely to repeat past mistakes
c) they weren't so slippery that you could feel safe that they wouldn't consider a coalition with SF.

There's a couple of other things about FF that are on my wishlist; but those three are pretty crucial. I don't know about anybody else - but I'd say at least the first one is a priority for many voters.

"IT WAS DA LEHMANS BROTHERS FAULT!"

All of the above, but #1 still for me is that they are far from distancing themselves from the culture of the brown envelope and the Galway tent that is endemic in their gene-pool. The front they are attempting to put on over the last 2 or 3 years is just that - a front.

Manach

The FF handling of the economy left much to be desired. However the same giveaway mentality, using the national wealth to essential elections, was also in large part engaged in by FG/Lab. As for corruption, jobs for the boys and girls or untoward influences by lobbyist groups , then the record of the current government is hardly spotless.

Grudaire

Voting for FF after everything that has happened is a vote that endorses corruption.

Not to mention the handling of Mary Hanifan farce.. They're ineffiecient in opposition

hatrickpatrick

Absolutely yes. FF should never be allowed anywhere near government again and neither should the Labour Party. Nor should FG, although my hatred for them lags slightly behind FF and Labour.

I will only be voting for independents from now on myself. As angry as the current government's antics have understandably made people, FF should be kept out of office for however long it takes for them to give up and disband.

lazybones32

Of course they are but this is Ireland. Willie O'Dea swore a false oath in Court and only resigned his Ministerial position after sustained pressure from the Media and Opposition. To me, that shows he didn't care too much about integrity or disgracing his position but was willing to 'ride out the storm' until he was chucked.
The mass 'conversion' of FF members to 'Independent' means FF are still in power in this Country, but under a different name.
I'm no fan of Cowen - personality wise - but I do remember him fighting hard to keep the IMF out of Ireland and for that I respect him. He was made Captain of a sinking ship and went with it.

FG 'cleaning up this mess'? I remember when FG were in opposition and they were denouncing everything that FF said had to be done to rectify the situation the State was in. That's why I voted for FG in that Election. When they started implementing everything they criticised FF for wanting to implement, I turned against them and will not vote for them again.

Not all politicians must be bad but many give the appearance of being corrupt, self-serving liars who have little respect for their fellow citizens (who they are supposed to represent and work on behalf of).

Dob74

FF are going no where at the moment. After winning every election from 1932 to 2007. They are now just another party. sinn Fein are clearly on the up and taking a large chunk of there base.

ThunbergsAreGo

Didnt SF drop 2 points in the latest poll?

_Kaiser_

Manach wrote: »

The FF handling of the economy left much to be desired. However the same giveaway mentality, using the national wealth to essential elections, was also in large part engaged in by FG/Lab. As for corruption, jobs for the boys and girls or untoward influences by lobbyist groups , then the record of the current government is hardly spotless.

Spot on.. FG/LAB have already started with the giveaways in the latest budget and the news this morning about them planning a "spring statement" on the economy, coupled with all the recent pronouncements of "growth" and "recovery" is all designed to soften the electorate up for the GE

As they admit themselves..

Coalition sources say the timing of the budget next October will not allow enough time for future tax cuts or welfare increases to sink in before the general election, due in spring 2016.

As regards corruption, the present government have shown they're no stranger to that either. The only reason FG have historically come off better than FF in my opinion is because they are hardly ever in government. When they are we see the results - just look at their cozy relationship with DoB for example!

Grudaire wrote: »

Voting for FF after everything that has happened is a vote that endorses corruption.

Not to mention the handling of Mary Hanifan farce.. They're ineffiecient in opposition

As above, FG are no better - indeed I'd say they're worse as they promised to change all that! Ironically with FF, you know exactly what you're getting.

What we badly need in this country is a third (or arguably second option as FF/FG are two sides of the same coin). I don't think SF or the smaller hangers-on (LAB, Greens, the now exinct PDs etc), left-wingers or one-issue Independents fit that bill.

Larbre34

jetsonx wrote: »

the two architects of Ireland's downfall Ahern and Cowen were pictured grinning in Kerry yesterday.

Do you think that while FG (as bad as they are) clean up the mess, FF are getting off rather lightly?

At a funeral, where a joke was being made at their expense?


Theyve been chucked out. Incompetence and naivite werent crimes, at least as regards their own roles. What else could be done, have them strung up?

robbiezero

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Spot on.. FG/LAB have already started with the giveaways in the latest budget and the news this morning about them planning a "spring statement" on the economy, coupled with all the recent pronouncements of "growth" and "recovery" is all designed to soften the electorate up for the GE

As they admit themselves..



As regards corruption, the present government have shown they're no stranger to that either. The only reason FG have historically come off better than FF in my opinion is because they are hardly ever in government. When they are we see the results - just look at their cozy relationship with DoB for example!



As above, FG are no better - indeed I'd say they're worse as they promised to change all that! Ironically with FF, you know exactly what you're getting.

What we badly need in this country is a third (or arguably second option as FF/FG are two sides of the same coin). I don't think SF or the smaller hangers-on (LAB, Greens, the now exinct PDs etc), left-wingers or one-issue Independents fit that bill.

What have this Government done that was corrupt?

jetsonx

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

FF should be kept out of office for however long it takes for them to give up and disband.

+1

Here, here, well said.

hfallada

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I will only be voting for independents from now on myself. As angry as the current government's antics have understandably made people, FF should be kept out of office for however long it takes for them to give up and disband.

What will independents achieve?Most of them are people who have nothing to offer current political parties. Ask them hard questions at the door and they are generally clueless. Tony Geogory was only good because of his ability to influence FF. Dozens of independents who arent in the whip system looking for their 30 seconds of RTE news will get this country no where.

Parties are needed to make rapid decision. Try passing emergency legalisation with a group of independents all wanting voice their unimportant opinions. Nothing will be achieved.

FF made some serious mistakes. But those that mean we should abandon the us of parties and instead use independents we know nothing about? Just because someone has an untarnished reputation due no one knowing anything about them. Doesnt make then a viable choice for Goverment

hatrickpatrick

hfallada wrote: »

What will independents achieve?Most of them are people who have nothing to offer current political parties. Ask them hard questions at the door and they are generally clueless. Tony Geogory was only good because of his ability to influence FF. Dozens of independents who arent in the whip system looking for their 30 seconds of RTE news will get this country no where.

Parties are needed to make rapid decision. Try passing emergency legalisation with a group of independents all wanting voice their unimportant opinions. Nothing will be achieved.

I won't get into yet another debate about independents in this thread, see the end of centrism thread if you want to argue about that with me, but suffice it to say it's exactly because of the inability to rush legislation through that I support independents. Emergency legislation and shoehorning have brought us nothing but the likes of the bank bailout and Irish Water, and FG are just as bad as FF in this regard.

FF made some serious mistakes. But those that mean we should abandon the us of parties and instead use independents we know nothing about? Just because someone has an untarnished reputation due no one knowing anything about them. Doesnt make then a viable choice for Goverment

Do you agree with my central point that FF should never be allowed to hold office again? As I say, see the Centrism thread if you want to debate independents, paste your post over there and I'll happily engage!

RandomName2

hfallada wrote: »

What will independents achieve?Most of them are people who have nothing to offer current political parties.

That's mostly because they aren't a swing vote at the moment.

hfallada wrote: »

Ask them hard questions at the door and they are generally clueless.

That's a bit of a generalisation. Are party politicians, in general, any better?

hfallada wrote: »

Dozens of independents who arent in the whip system looking for their 30 seconds of RTE news will get this country no where.

As opposed to backbenchers who don't even turn up?

hfallada wrote: »

Parties are needed to make rapid decision.

Huh. Yeah right.

hfallada wrote: »

Try passing emergency legalisation with a group of independents all wanting voice their unimportant opinions. Nothing will be achieved.

As opposed to emergency legislation that is passed without debate because tends to end well.

hfallada wrote: »

FF made some serious mistakes. But those that mean we should abandon the us of parties and instead use independents we know nothing about? Just because someone has an untarnished reputation due no one knowing anything about them. Doesnt make then a viable choice for Goverment

That much is true I suppose.

michael999999

Larbre34 wrote: »

At a funeral, where a joke was being made at their expense?


Theyve been chucked out. Incompetence and naivite werent crimes, at least as regards their own roles. What else could be done, have them strung up?

Ahern was a crook. He should be in jail!

FreudianSlippers

michael999999 wrote: »

Ahern was a crook. He should be in jail!

I'm sure you can name the crimes he allegedly committed. :rolleyes:

case885

michael999999 wrote: »

Ahern was a crook. He should be in jail!

Im trying to think what was the lowest point in his career, his disastrous time as Taoiseach or when he appeared in a cupboard for a rag newspaper on TV. What a pitiful man, its no wonder hes been hiding in a hole the last 5 years.

michael999999

case885 wrote: »

Im trying to think what was the lowest point in his career, his disastrous time as Taoiseach or when he appeared in a cupboard for a rag newspaper on TV. What a pitiful man, its no wonder hes been hiding in a hole the last 5 years.

He was down here in Kerry this week with Biffo,slugging pints and having a great time from what I was told!

Crooks like him don't feel shame. Its all about the money!

henryporter

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm sure you can name the crimes he allegedly committed. :rolleyes:

Well for a start he must be the only person in Ireland who was able to pay taxes in cash, as he didn't have any bank accounts. Not a crime as I'm sure you will reply, however the implications of functioning without a bank account un this country in the past 20 years without ensuring complete tax compliance surely would make any ordinary person wonder.

case885

michael999999 wrote: »

He was down here in Kerry this week with Biffo,slugging pints and having a great time from what I was told!

Crooks like him don't feel shame. Its all about the money!

He criticised Biffo the time of the bailout as if he was a saint and distanced himself from FF, that just proves the cowardly snake he is.
Great watching him squirm here and no reply.

joe912

unfortunately their is no easy solutions all the parties have, an always will put their own interests first.
t.ds will put their county first and everything is done for short term gain.
ministers are assigned without showing any knowledge or ability in their ministerial roll.
independents just wont work, simple as that.
If you were selecting somebody for a specific job you would employ them based on their plans for the job an ability to carry them out. when you vote you basically are getting a pig in a poke, ideally you would vote on a countrywide basis for the individual ministers and do away with backbenchers who cost money and serve no purpose. the opposition or no better than backbenchers as they have no power and there only purpose is to object and criticise. obviously we need some sort of defence mechanism and accountability. the only way I can see this working is if you ban the party system and just elect 20 capable people who will if needed vote as individuals on specific policies.

Letree

I think we have to be realistic. FG and Labour were calling for everything that FF did during the boom and more. More money for this, more money for that, less regulation etc etc. None of the parties were calling for fiscally responsible policies back then.

case885

Letree wrote: »

I think we have to be realistic. FG and Labour were calling for everything that FF did during the boom and more. More money for this, more money for that, less regulation etc etc. None of the parties were calling for fiscally responsible policies back then.

So its the opposition's fault that the government didn't regulate the banks properly?

michael999999

case885 wrote: »

So its the opposition's fault that the government didn't regulate the banks properly?

And Bertie ahern was collecting suitcases of cash for himself!!

efb

They won one seat in the Euros and he defected

Letree

case885 wrote: »

So its the opposition's fault that the government didn't regulate the banks properly?

Not fault no, but i'm not convinced they would have done anything different.