Management imposing fines

Gatling

Recently the management in out apartment complex has started imposing fines for everthing from untied bin bags in the bin shed to apparent anti social behaviour ie tv too loud , music during the day times and so on .
Generally speaking the fines aren't an issue for us .
But now we've received letters stating the fines originally set at €75 per complaint have now risen to €250 in a 2 week period and the management company now wants tenants deposits handed over to them so they can deduct any fine imposed on tenants directly from security deposits .

Can management companies take such action and can they only impose fines on tenants and not owner occupiers

Gasherbraun

They cannot have access to a tenants deposit let alone deduct from them.

Deposit is a security for the landlord and can only be used to cover rent arrears and dilapidations.

If the management company have outstanding 'fines' with a tenant then they have to pursue them in other ways.

athtrasna

The management company has no relationship with the tenant but they may be able to levy the unit owner

I say levy as fine is a legal term and can only be charged by certain bodies

D3PO

what a pack of muppets in that MC they have no legal standing to do this.

More fool anybody to even interact with them on this .

blacklilly

An OMC can levy a reasonable charge relating to incidents where covenants are broken e.g bin bags left on the ground and not placed in bins provided.

After giving adequate notice that these levies will be imposed, these levies should be debited from the landlords service charge account, it is then up to the landlord to deal with their tenant on the issue.

Marcusm

I would be shocked that any residential lease included the ability to "fine" anyone. It might permit recovery of directly related costs but no more.

Michael D Not Higgins

Would it be legal to impose penalties in a lease related to such matters? I can see €250 penalties quickly exceeding the deposit and the landlord having no comeback. How is it dealt with if it's €75 and written as such in the lease agreement and then the OMC ups it to €250? How would the PRTB react to a landlord withholding the deposit in this circumstance? I can imagine not in the landlord's favour (especially with moving the goalposts).

MarkAnthony

blacklilly wrote: »

An OMC can levy a reasonable charge relating to incidents where covenants are broken e.g bin bags left on the ground and not placed in bins provided.

After giving adequate notice that these levies will be imposed, these levies should be debited from the landlords service charge account, it is then up to the landlord to deal with their tenant on the issue.

D3PO wrote: »

what a pack of muppets in that MC they have no legal standing to do this.

More fool anybody to even interact with them on this .

The difference is one of an administrative charge and a punitive sanction. The former is permitted the latter is not.

As for lodging the tenants deposit with the MC - LOL. Pointless as well as all they need to is fine the Owner who will deducted from the tenant. Of course that would wake up the Owners 90% of which probably don't attend the AGMs and cause a small revolt against the directors.

D3PO

MarkAnthony wrote: »

The difference is one of an administrative charge and a punitive sanction. The former is permitted the latter is not.

As for lodging the tenants deposit with the MC - LOL. Pointless as well as all they need to is fine the Owner who will deducted from the tenant. Of course that would wake up the Owners 90% of which probably don't attend the AGMs and cause a small revolt against the directors.

fines for not tying bin bags and having your tv loud are not administrative charges though.

ive never heard such nonsense in my life here on a&p. Im not sure whats funnier the fact they think they can do this or the fact they expect people to actually accept and pay these fines.

MarkAnthony

D3PO wrote: »

fines for not tying bin bags and having your tv loud are not administrative charges though.

ive never heard such nonsense in my life here on a&p. Im not sure whats funnier the fact they think they can do this or the fact they expect people to actually accept and pay these fines.

Not tying the bins - had to tie the bin and sweep up a small sum isn't beyond the pale for that.

Had to employ security guard to come knock on door to tell you that porn is best enjoyed with head phones - small charge for that, again perfectly reasonable. Especially where the security guy is on all like ours is.

Greenmachine

Sound pretty outrageous. Would love to know what management company and development this is happening in, so that I can avoid it.

Gatling

MarkAnthony wrote: »

The difference is one of an administrative charge and a punitive sanction. The former is permitted the latter is not.

As for lodging the tenants deposit with the MC - LOL. Pointless as well as all they need to is fine the Owner who will deducted from the tenant. Of course that would wake up the Owners 90% of which probably don't attend the AGMs and cause a small revolt against the directors.

The fines are actually worded dear tenant you have been fined €250 for misuse of the bin shed ie not securing bin bags .
We've had issues in the past with former tenants fly tipping outside or using keys there no longer entitled to have.
so the management changed the lock and installed cctv inside and outside the bin shed been next to no problems since .
seems agm was held in October and nothing was mentioned to either tenants or landlords about fines .
Now all of sudden we have fines issued for Bins and excessive loud music during the day time .

Marcusm

Gatling wrote: »

The fines are actually worded dear tenant you have been fined €250 for misuse of the bin shed ie not securing bin bags .
We've had issues in the past with former tenants fly tipping outside or using keys there no longer entitled to have.
so the management changed the lock and installed cctv inside and outside the bin shed been next to no problems since .
seems agm was held in October and nothing was mentioned to either tenants or landlords about fines .
Now all of sudden we have fines issued for Bins and excessive loud music during the day time .

Perhaps you're missing the subtleties, they have no authority or entitlement to fine you for anything. Failing to deposit rubbish is likely a breach of "house rules" which have a limited statutory authority under the MUD Act but which does not provide for any sanction or penalty and nor should it. In each MUD, leases are in place (except for the very limited extent of freehold house estates) and the leases prescribe the extent to which the leaseholder (the owner, not some short term tenant) is liable to contribute to the expenses of a development. Failure to tie up a bin or flytipping is aggravating and should not be permitted but the expense involved is the cost of clearing it up, not some arbitrary amount.

The sanction for being in breach of a no audible noise covenant cannot be anything other than a request to desist from the breach and ultimately a court action for forfeiture.

ted1

Gatling wrote: »

The fines are actually worded dear tenant you have been fined €250 for misuse of the bin shed ie not securing bin bags .
We've had issues in the past with former tenants fly tipping outside or using keys there no longer entitled to have.
so the management changed the lock and installed cctv inside and outside the bin shed been next to no problems since .
seems agm was held in October and nothing was mentioned to either tenants or landlords about fines .
Now all of sudden we have fines issued for Bins and excessive loud music during the day time .

Who determines what is excessive loud music? The government haves dare time imposing penalties for such.

What happens if someone brings a case Againest the MC for extortion as the noise is acceptable but the building is inadequately sound proofed and the MC then have to fork out money for upgrading the sound proofing to each block in the apartment.

Dangerous grounds. Also I persume that the MC didn't give a new key to the owners who are behind in their fees. Thus breaching planning regulations and forcing the owner to leave rubbish out side the area.


Also I'm sure that the cost of replaving keys and installing and maintains CCTV far exceeds the cost of having people using the bins.