URGENT NEED for smart meters

fclauson

This week end we saw 300Mw of wind being dumped off the grid due to voltage and frequency stability issues.

If we had smart meters across the network we could have switched on a bank of night storage heaters or immersion heaters to soak up this power (assuming the grid could handle the distribution issues associated with this)

This dumping cost you and me around €10,000 out of your PSO levy and we got nothing for it (but the wind operators did)

How far aware are we from this model of power management?

ted1

Smart appliances could do this without needing smart meters.
Just use a Internet connection, set up your location. Wait for a command and off you go.

Macha

Residential smart meters aren't the fastest or best way to deal with curtailment of variable energy sources. Large scale industrial demand response is a more mature option and can deliver sizeable chunks of flexibility.

That's not to say we shouldn't bring in smart meters but it's not our only option.

fclauson

How close are we to doing this in Ireland - if you look at the cost for the 6pm peak - if we could smooth this it could make significant impact of the price of electricity (and Ireland is in the top 5 most expensive in Europe currently)

Macha

We already do it but it could be improved.

Don't confuse prices with costs.

Old diesel

So here we have a potential flaw with Wind showing up again.

And the solution???? - work around the flaw - with 3rd party solutions - so the washing machine gets "told" to wash clothes "now" because excess wind available.

Is there anything that could be done on the actual wind energy side itself to improve the situation.

Id love to see the wind industry move itself forward by learning to fit in with the needs of everything else that's going on around it - which includes the grid its producing power for.

ted1

Old diesel wrote: »

So here we have a potential flaw with Wind showing up again.

And the solution???? - work around the flaw - with 3rd party solutions - so the washing machine gets "told" to wash clothes "now" because excess wind available.

Is there anything that could be done on the actual wind energy side itself to improve the situation.

Id love to see the wind industry move itself forward by learning to fit in with the needs of everything else that's going on around it - which includes the grid its producing power for.

Turbines are becoming more efficent, forecasts aren't improving, if there's wind they spin, if there's no wind they don't. I don't see how they can improve

Macha

Old diesel wrote: »

So here we have a potential flaw with Wind showing up again.

And the solution???? - work around the flaw - with 3rd party solutions - so the washing machine gets "told" to wash clothes "now" because excess wind available.

Is there anything that could be done on the actual wind energy side itself to improve the situation.

Id love to see the wind industry move itself forward by learning to fit in with the needs of everything else that's going on around it - which includes the grid its producing power for.

Hang on, the other thread on nuclear shows no technology is immune from intermittency. And no one talks about the huge inconvenience caused by the lack of flexibility with large, baseload plants that just sit on the system like elephants. Instead we're seeing people saying wind has to 'learn to fit in'.

Screw that. The current energy system and market was designed for the elephants of the past. We're heading into an entirely new system based on entirely different technologies. That will need new regulation and market design. Renewables shouldn't fit into the market, the market should be changed to fit renewables. This is exactly why the German government is consulting on a green paper on power market design.

And the idea we can have some sort of neutral market in which all technologies can 'complete' is a fantasy cooked up by economists that know nothing about energy technologies.

One point I'll make is that even low rates of curtailment (c. 3%) can bring down the cost of variable renewables hugely so that definitely should be part of the system.

Old diesel

Macha wrote: »

Hang on, the other thread on nuclear shows no technology is immune from intermittency. And no one talks about the huge inconvenience caused by the lack of flexibility with large, baseload plants that just sit on the system like elephants. Instead we're seeing people saying wind has to 'learn to fit in'.

Screw that. The current energy system and market was designed for the elephants of the past. We're heading into an entirely new system based on entirely different technologies. That will need new regulation and market design. Renewables shouldn't fit into the market, the market should be changed to fit renewables. This is exactly why the German government is consulting on a green paper on power market design.

And the idea we can have some sort of neutral market in which all technologies can 'complete' is a fantasy cooked up by economists that know nothing about energy technologies.

One point I'll make is that even low rates of curtailment (c. 3%) can bring down the cost of variable renewables hugely so that definitely should be part of the system.

By learning to fit in - I mean improving the technology to enable it to fit in.

The turbine is in a community - producing power to sell to the grid.

Seems reasonable to me to look at what the needs of the community and residents are in terms of everyday living - and the needs of the grid - so the product producing the energy - the wind turbine can be improved.

Part of the issue - isn't wind energy itself - but wider planning - in that we are planning wind turbines - on their own - in isolation from other important issues like where people will live and how we will live in the future.

For example - you might say the problem is too many one off houses - that's fine - but when do we start looking at where the people living in one off houses are going to live in the future.

But that's a whole other topic in itself

Heroditas

fclauson wrote: »

How close are we to doing this in Ireland - if you look at the cost for the 6pm peak - if we could smooth this it could make significant impact of the price of electricity (and Ireland is in the top 5 most expensive in Europe currently)

Smart meter rollout is commencing in 2018.
Also, looking at the 5-7 peak is not necessarily the right place to start. That is an old legacy demand peak where older or less efficient fossil fuelled plant was needed to meet demand.
In future, the "peak" will be affected by wind generation. You ihgt actually find the peak where the more expensive fossil fuelled or peaking plant is needed may be 10am or maybe 2 in the afternoon.
As you said earlier though, being able to generate demand will be useful. Being able to switch on 50,000 domestic water immersion coils would have a significant effect on the system.

I don't understand why we persistently bottleneck the system. 9 to 5 is antiquated imho. If we spread the base load there'd be less demand on the system, no rush hours, no zombieland as everyone leaves nightclubs at the same minute citywide.
Then again a lot of what we do doesn't make sense to me, seems that a lot of people are decorating their houses with electricity at the moment when light and heat demand are at the annual high....

braddun

http://e2shi.jhu.edu/index.php/news/article/wind2014

Markcheese

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

I don't understand why we persistently bottleneck the system. 9 to 5 is antiquated imho. If we spread the base load there'd be less demand on the system, no rush hours, no zombieland as everyone leaves nightclubs at the same minute citywide.
Then again a lot of what we do doesn't make sense to me, seems that a lot of people are decorating their houses with electricity at the moment when light and heat demand are at the annual high....

They might be a lot less keen to decorate - or at least use a lot more energy saving lights if there were three or four tariffs - with the top one being the type of one that had your dad walking round the house with a candle turning everything off and praying for windy weather -
Also 12-24 hour forecasting is pretty good and that's just using the likes of acuweather - how long before eirgrid starts giving 12 to 24 hour requests to operators-or they offer power to eirgrid in advance(and are penalized for not delivering ), other generators have plant supplying power to the grid that is idle or off line at times ,and don't expect payment for producing power when there's no demand -

I have yet to meet a light bulb that saves me energy...mostly I find they use it, some more than others. :pac:

When this Dad finds lights left on around the house needlessly he will be making the offenders pedal the net loss off on a bicycle belted to an alternator.

I also wonder if the bills for esoteric street lighting/decoration return an economic profit in retail sales.

Capt'n Midnight

Macha wrote: »

Residential smart meters aren't the fastest or best way to deal with curtailment of variable energy sources. Large scale industrial demand response is a more mature option and can deliver sizeable chunks of flexibility.

the existing gas mains and appliances can accommodate up to 5% hydrogen which can be electrolysed from water, or even stored for a short time (it's very leaky stuff)

considering all the gas turbine plants are connected to the grid and the gas network it shouldn't be hard to find sites.

irishgeo

Why can't we build a few hydro electric plants that work on the 2 lake basis and when there is an excess of wind supply we could use this to pump water to the upper lake and then have it generate electricity when wind energy is not providing an excess. It would be far more efficient than trying to do it in the home.

machiavellianme

irishgeo wrote: »

Why can't we build a few hydro electric plants that work on the 2 lake basis and when there is an excess of wind supply we could use this to pump water to the upper lake and then have it generate electricity when wind energy is not providing an excess. It would be far more efficient than trying to do it in the home.

We have one. Turlough Hill is a great unit but far from cheap. Battery storage at grid level offers a quicker fix although doesn't really provide inertia so the issue of decreasing system strength doesn't go away.

Old diesel

Battery storage....

Worth noting that Honda has actually done something in this area - they've developed the idea of using a battery normally used in one of their hybrid - the hybrid battery pack* - to store power produced by a pv array.

They've actually built a house - the Honda house - with this idea - so its actually a working prototype as opposed to just a dream.

This also highlights the potential role microgen COULD play - however small it might be - in helping supply some of a homes electricity - which also offers us the opportunity to drive buildings forward to NET zero energy (the energy produced on site compensates for energy used over time - my interpretation) or energy plus - the building actually produces more energy on site then it uses).

This is why planning energy CAN'T be done on its own - but why we need to look at how and where we live - because in the future energy efficiency will become more vital - and buildings - how we use them and DESIGN AND BUILD them wlll be of critical importance

Capt'n Midnight

irishgeo wrote: »

Why can't we build a few hydro electric plants that work on the 2 lake basis and when there is an excess of wind supply we could use this to pump water to the upper lake and then have it generate electricity when wind energy is not providing an excess. It would be far more efficient than trying to do it in the home.

Because of the huge capital cost.

You'd have to import/export energy to the UK to pay for it.

And it would be cheaper to just build ordinary hydro in Norway. Cables cost the same, dams might be cheaper. But the fact that you don't have to pump water into the dams make a Norwegian solution way cheaper to run.

Old diesel

Old diesel wrote: »

Battery storage....

Worth noting that Honda has actually done something in this area - they've developed the idea of using a battery normally used in one of their hybrid - the hybrid battery pack* - to store power produced by a pv array.

It's a crappy NiMH battery made of hundreds of D-cells. :rolleyes:



Not a very sustainable design for a battery pack. Look at the materials and engineering involved in each module.

You can wire any house/PV array/what-have-you to any battery off the + and - terminals

Houses don't need to be lightweight.
Lead Acid forklift batteries are a practical solution, have been running off-grid homes for decades.

46kWh
2v cells 2 strings of 48V

Old diesel

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

It's a crappy NiMH battery made of hundreds of D-cells. :rolleyes:



Not a very sustainable design for a battery pack. Look at the materials and engineering involved in each module.

You can wire any house/PV array/what-have-you to any battery off the + and - terminals

Houses don't need to be lightweight.
Lead Acid forklift batteries are a practical solution, have been running off-grid homes for decades.

Im not saying the Honda solution is actually good - more that they've done it.

Obviously theres a lot of work to be done - but its a start to moving the idea to wider use.

anyway heres more about it - and btw I was mistaken I think - its the CELLS of the hybrid battery it uses NOT the actual hybrid battery

http://www.gizmag.com/honda-smart-home-energy-producing/31380/

Old diesel

Old diesel wrote: »

Im not saying the Honda solution is actually good

..it's not.

Li-Ion are a modicum better. They perform competitively against Lead-Acid except every cell will require a temperature sensor, coolant system, current shunt, voltmeter and a battery management system. They're also super volatile if things go awry


The Li-Ion packs are the same D-Cell configuration with different chemistry. Hundreds of cathodes and anodes, wrapped in tin, packed in plastic, shielded and cased in steel. Good luck recycling those.

Discharge curves of lithium are linear and very difficult to monitor.

8kWh storage (to 80% DOD) isn't a whole lot if the sun doesn't shine for a week. Especially if you're trying to supplement your transport into that.


Tbh it just looks like a super-bling pseudo-practical presentation designed and conceived by persons with no hands-on experience of the dwelling and lifestyle they wish to prescribe.

Also Honda have curtailed production of the Li-Ion EV.

Running a house on batteries is old hat, and a far more reliable system is a few generators; solar PV, wind, diesel, hydro, national grid etc. charging a lead acid deep cycle battery bank and supplying AC loads in the dwelling from an inverter.
It's not plug and play by any means so there's not too many quick on the uptake.

I've seen a lot of arguments for the lifetime price per watt of Li-Ion versus Lead-Acid and it's still an even pitch. The exception being lead acid weighs more, is much simpler to set up, cheaper to install, less sophisticated electronics, a whole lot less likely to explode in your face and burn the house down, easier to recycle and readily available at low cost second hand.
If you make a mistake with a wet lead acid charge/cycle regime or suffer from component failure in the charge/distribution system they'll probably forgive you. Li-Ion, Li-Po, AGM, Gel, NiCD, NiMH...you'll be buying new batteries.

Old diesel

Id be more thinking of not actually powering the house on PV/battery on its own - that's just bonkers in Ireland.

youd still need grid access.

The concept of NET energy or energy plus houses is good imo - but its trying to develop the right solutions for the long term

Old diesel

Old diesel wrote: »

Id be more thinking of not actually powering the house on PV/battery on its own - that's just bonkers in Ireland.

Add hydro or a bittov wind & diesel and it's do-able.
My PV does everything I need mid-March to mid-October.

Battery supplemented houses can work even without the PV. Charge off-peak cycle on-peak. There's some economic saving to be made (with the right regime and spec.). Without the PV though it's actually costing more energy due to charge and inverter inefficiencies.

Stepping stones I guess....

Capt'n Midnight

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

I've seen a lot of arguments for the lifetime price per watt of Li-Ion versus Lead-Acid and it's still an even pitch. The exception being lead acid weighs more, is much simpler to set up, cheaper to install, less sophisticated electronics, a whole lot less likely to explode in your face and burn the house down, easier to recycle and readily available at low cost second hand.
If you make a mistake with a wet lead acid charge/cycle regime or suffer from component failure in the charge/distribution system they'll probably forgive you. Li-Ion, Li-Po, AGM, Gel, NiCD, NiMH...you'll be buying new batteries.

Actually one advantage NiCad had was that they didn't mind being flat. IIRC NiMH are the same

Lithium and most Lead Acid don't like being being over discharged to put it mildly.

most vehicles powered by an internal combustion engine still use lead-acid batteries. you could save maybe 1% of the weight of a car by using lithium which can also crank out the amps and that's just gotta translate into better mpg. unless of course lead acid were just cheap and reliable


Then there is also the slight problem that most battery technologies take a lot of energy to make, comparable to that they'd charge/discharge over their lives. So they'd really only be economic at peak , peak time and could be trumped by smart meters on heaters shedding demand. Just compare the Watt Hours

Nickel based batteries are a nightmare to up-scale.
They don't mind being fully discharged but they really don't like not being fully discharged and fully recharged due to their memory effect.
They also tend to drop in voltage after their max charge threshold is reached so if the bank is out of balance and doesn't have individual cell monitoring it's very difficult to know when to terminate charge.

My 6v semi-traction LAs are displaying 100% charge efficiency characteristics due to the reduced discharge curve they live by. What's actually happening is they operate at a C100 discharge usually, giving me an added 20% capacity thus defeating the charging losses.
I am very gentle recharging them too barring the odd occasion when time isn't on my side so they should last a good long while. I'm expecting at least an 8 year service life from them. Shouldn't be too hard considering I got 5 from a previous set of brand x sealed leisure lemons that had a much harder service life.
I'd be interested to see where you got the figures of the production energy of a battery to see if I can trump it Capt'n.

The synergy of batteries has a part to play too. Wind turbines and hydro can pay for their energy footprint in a very short space of time: 6 months to 2 years depending on site and materials, PV: 4 years grid tie, more years on batteries with a life expectancy of 25+ years.
So while the batteries may not pay for themselves (although they should) they can certainly enable other technologies to contribute to the overall outcome and if adapted by enough consumers could spread the base load reducing the need for standby power providers.

If you want the extra credits get ex-service batteries and second hand gear. Forklift batteries take a hellova-lotta abuse.

Capt'n Midnight

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Nickel based batteries are a nightmare to up-scale.
They don't mind being fully discharged but they really don't like not being fully discharged and fully recharged due to their memory effect.
They also tend to drop in voltage after their max charge threshold is reached so if the bank is out of balance and doesn't have individual cell monitoring it's very difficult to know when to terminate charge.

First of all the memory effect is bunk.

it only shows up if you get EXACTLY the same charge/discharge cycle repeatedly , as in solar powered satellite orbiting the earth in geostationary orbit. For normal use where charge / discharge cycles vary it's a non-issue. And even if it was you could deep dischage once in a while (don't do this to lithium or lead)




Second of all seeing as how every lithium cell has to be managed individually applying the same technology to nickel isn't exactly rocket science

I used to get a very long service life from the old Nickel laptop, phone and drill batteries by fully cycling them compared to my friends who just zap them every now and again. Nickel self discharges pretty quick too and although they give more cycles than lithium usually it translates to a shorter lived battery.
Nickel is just not worth the bother imho.
The failure rate of those Honda Nickel packs (without cell management) was 30% in the first year.

I take it back on the Honda Lithium bank being not very good, chocolate teapot for off-grid but might be suitable for grid supplementing, you'd have to take a close look at the price per watt.

You could get away without cell coolant if you charge and discharge them gently.
I don't like the car battery packs they're too compartmentalised.
This makes much more sense to me for a dwelling.



100Ah lithium cell


Here's something to be aware of though.




Any all singing all dancing battery management system is going to be cost prohibitive and not DIY-able except for the electronic engineers.

Here's a thread on a guy modifying a Tesla pack for his home.

By the way I'm not advocating home batteries as the solution, just seeing as we're on the topic...
The biggest unseen factor in home storage and generation is that it's proactive, and makes people quantifiably energy conscious. It's also self rationing, if I haven't enough electrons I use less or improve existing generators or connect more.

Old diesel

I don't see them as THE solution either Liam - just PART of a wider solution.