Horse drawn carriages in Dublin.

BMmeow

Today I must have seen 10 horses with carriages all lined up at Stephen's Green opposite the Christmas market. I find it so upsetting, each horse looked as miserable as the last. How in this day and age is this legal? Surely the horses aren't ok being forced to drag heavy carriages, full of tourists ignorant of animal welfare, around the city centre in heavy traffic, day after day? Im absolutely disgusted at what I saw today.

Thoughts?

ABajaninCork

You don't want to come to Killarney then. The horse drawn carriages are a tourist attraction there too. Same thing in London where I am from. I was in Dublin a couple of weeks ago and saw them at St Stephen's Green. They looked very well cared foe to me.

Don't forget. Horses have been carrying man for thousands of years before the advent of 'horseless carriages' - i.e. cars.

tk123

As much as horses in housing estates pi$$ me off (especially when the wander out in the road and I'm dodging them in traffic :mad:) ...Dublin is a port/working city - horses and carts were the norm 50 years ago and they've lasted on the green. My uncle had a spot on the green years ago and the horse was very well cared for - we used to love getting a jaunt in the cart lol!

Mars Bar

Nothing can compare to the donkeys I saw in Mijas in Spain. It was sweltering hot and not one bucket of water was seen for the donkeys who arrived back.

ABajaninCork

Mars Bar wrote: »

Nothing can compare to the donkeys I saw in Mijas in Spain. It was sweltering hot and not one bucket of water was seen for the donkeys who arrived back.

I've seen the same thing in Greece. Now, THAT is cruel. Not the horses you see in Dublin and Killarney...

Graces7

ABajaninCork wrote: »

You don't want to come to Killarney then. The horse drawn carriages are a tourist attraction there too. Same thing in London where I am from. I was in Dublin a couple of weeks ago and saw them at St Stephen's Green. They looked very well cared foe to me.

Don't forget. Horses have been carrying man for thousands of years before the advent of 'horseless carriages' - i.e. cars.

You beat me to it, Killarney being my home town. The jaunting cars and jarveys are a part of life here ..just now they are all in Christmas lights and so attractive. And yes well cared for and carefully monitored also.

The jarveys are travellers who live and work with horses and know the steeds who after all are their very livelihood

aaakev

BMmeow wrote: »

Today I must have seen 10 horses with carriages all lined up at Stephen's Green opposite the Christmas market. I find it so upsetting, each horse looked as miserable as the last. How in this day and age is this legal? Surely the horses aren't ok being forced to drag heavy carriages, full of tourists ignorant of animal welfare, around the city centre in heavy traffic, day after day? Im absolutely disgusted at what I saw today.

Thoughts?

Sorry but that sounds like it's straight out of the peta handbook... Any of the horses I've seen in Dublin and Killarney have looked to be very well looked after. Horses have been doing this on grass tracks and cobble streets for hundreds of years before we had Tarmac streets with heavier loads than a few tourists

andreac

BMmeow wrote: »

Today I must have seen 10 horses with carriages all lined up at Stephen's Green opposite the Christmas market. I find it so upsetting, each horse looked as miserable as the last. How in this day and age is this legal? Surely the horses aren't ok being forced to drag heavy carriages, full of tourists ignorant of animal welfare, around the city centre in heavy traffic, day after day? Im absolutely disgusted at what I saw today.

Thoughts?

What's to be disgusted at? The horses are very well looked after with plenty of breaks. They are in great condition and their hooves etc are shod and well cared for.
I was only in town yesterday and passed by them outside Stephens green and was only saying how well they looked.

BMmeow

aaakev wrote: »

Sorry but that sounds like it's straight out of the peta handbook... Any of the horses I've seen in Dublin and Killarney have looked to be very well looked after. Horses have been doing this on grass tracks and cobble streets for hundreds of years before we had Tarmac streets with heavier loads than a few tourists

sorry, but can someone not care about the welfare of animals without it being referred to in a derogatory way? you mention PETA as if its a negative thing? how close minded of you, i assume... Just as you assume these animals are being treated properly.
and need i really say that just because something has happened for hundreds of years doesn't make it right.

Eoin247

BMmeow wrote: »

sorry, but can someone not care about the welfare of animals without it being referred to in a derogatory way? you mention PETA as if its a negative thing? how close minded of you, i assume... Just as you assume these animals are being treated properly.
and need i really say that just because something has happened for hundreds of years doesn't make it right.

You also are assuming, except that they are miserable and are not being treated properly.

I'd like to address two of your point in the first post though. Firstly the heavy carriages thing. A fully loaded carriage weighs less than the horse itself and is on wheels. The equivalent for a human would be like pushing a near empty shopping trolley.

Secondly, I don't see how a tourist being aware or not of animal welfare would increase or decrease how happy it was.

degsie

Seriously, someone if offended by working horses! How many homeless persons did you pass to get to Stephens Green?

ferretone

Just for balance I will say I have occasionally seen lame, poorly conditioned, or poorly trained/distressed horses pulling the carriages in Dublin. At which times I have immediately reported their locations and descriptions to the DSPCA.

But for the most part, they are beautiful, sound, shiny, well-adjusted animals, who accept their bits and work well. And I'm not uneducated in this matter, but worked with horses for many years. I definitely wouldn't advocate the ban some cities have introduced, although the more controls and checks there are on how they are treated, I would see as the better.

And as for PETA, that is absolutely a BS organisation, with completely crazy goals and methods. Go ahead and rag my closed mind on that one, you will not bother me in the least :rolleyes:

aaakev

BMmeow wrote: »

sorry, but can someone not care about the welfare of animals without it being referred to in a derogatory way? you mention PETA as if its a negative thing? how close minded of you, i assume... Just as you assume these animals are being treated properly.
and need i really say that just because something has happened for hundreds of years doesn't make it right.

there is a difference between caring about animal welfare and believing everything you see on the Internet, i think it is you who is close minded.

I don't assume, i can clearly see the horses are in good condition, groomed, fed, watered ect. Pulling a cart is nothing to them.

Peta is definitely a negative thing, they are one of the most closed minded groups of people going with some seriously messed up ideas. Off topic but kind of relevant, do you follow them on social media by any chance?

Bottom line is if a working horse is well looked after it will have a very happy life

Kamili

If you ever stop and chat with the owners of these horses in Dublin (which I often have done) you'll quickly find out how much they adore their hooved friends. I have two of my own horses so I know a little about keeping them. These horses enjoy their job pulling carts, they were bred for it. And they get lots of rubs and scratches and even the odd time, treats from passing tourists.
Their hooves are well looked after, their coats shiny, and they get a nosebag full of tasty feed to munch away on during quiet times.
On the other hand if they were thin, bad hooves, and under condition I'd be the first to complain. But they are happy healthy and very loved.

fits

OP what exactly is your welfare concern here?
Horses cope very well with long periods of standing around. They also are good workers.

Inexile

Graces7 wrote: »

You beat me to it, Killarney being my home town. The jaunting cars and jarveys are a part of life here ..just now they are all in Christmas lights and so attractive. And yes well cared for and carefully monitored also.

The jarveys are travellers who live and work with horses and know the steeds who after all are their very livelihood

Any of the jarveys I know are not travellers. There maybe some but I have never heard this before.

I was told that each cart registered in Killarney must more than one horse associated to it so the horse doesn't work two consecutive days. The horses are in good condition and at Graces says at the moment the jaunting cars and other carriages are all very festive
.

Arbiter of Good Taste

BMmeow wrote: »

sorry, but can someone not care about the welfare of animals without it being referred to in a derogatory way? you mention PETA as if its a negative thing? how close minded of you, i assume... Just as you assume these animals are being treated properly.
and need i really say that just because something has happened for hundreds of years doesn't make it right.

So people disagree with you and they are tarred with being closed minded.

Do you actually know anything about horses? Because I do. Those horses have beautiful coats, clear eyes, calm demeanour and not flighty and are perfectly shod. The level of care is excellent.

If you really care as much about horses as you say you do, head over to Smithfield when the horse fair is on (assuming it hasn't been banned yet) and see what's there. Though it's not as nice and cozy for you as strolling along Stephens Green

SillyMangoX

I passed the horses therr recently and they look in perfect condition to me. Horses are designed to pull carts, it really is nothing to them. When you think about it, for how long that was the only mode of transport, there really isn't a welfare issue, unless you saw one that looked skinny or lame.

On a side note, when I was passing my mam saw one of the horses standing on three legs with one slightly bent, and starting aww-ing over the poor horse thinking it was lame. It didn't occur to her that horses like to rest their feet every now and again

Lia_lia

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I've seen the same thing in Greece. Now, THAT is cruel. Not the horses you see in Dublin and Killarney...

I was in Greece this summer and the poor Donkeys looked like they were in awful condition! Very upsetting.

Inexile wrote: »

Any of the jarveys I know are not travellers. There maybe some but I have never heard this before.

I was told that each cart registered in Killarney must more than one horse associated to it so the horse doesn't work two consecutive days. The horses are in good condition and at Graces says at the moment the jaunting cars and other carriages are all very festive
.

Many of the jarveys are settled travellers (as in settled for many years!). My Grandmother lives a few doors down from a jarvey and the horses are very well taken care of. I can't say I've ever seen a malnourished looking horse in Killarney and I grew up there. I don't know about Dublin.

muddypaws

BMmeow wrote: »

sorry, but can someone not care about the welfare of animals without it being referred to in a derogatory way? you mention PETA as if its a negative thing? how close minded of you, i assume... Just as you assume these animals are being treated properly.
and need i really say that just because something has happened for hundreds of years doesn't make it right.

Yes, PETA is a negative thing, for anyone that actually cares about animal welfare. Do some research, and don't believe the hype, celebrity supporters does not equal fantastic organisation. If you need help with your research google PETA pit bulls. PETA sled dogs. PETA shelter kill rate.

I haven't read the charter for a while, but seem to remember we're not meant to mention them in here, if that is the case, I apologise mods, and feel free to delete.

Whispered

OP, I know nothing about horses except that they make me nervous.

About two years ago I saw a programme on a working horse who was pulling logs around the place as part of its daily job. It looked incredibly difficult and a bit dangerous so, like you, I came on here to ask about it.

The horsey people of the forum really put my mind at ease about it and I felt better after asking. I guess I just wanted to let you know that I understand where your concern comes from, but in this case, like in mine, I think the concern is unwarranted.

BMmeow

Look everyone, I know about the bad side of PETA, but I think the basic idea behind the organization, i.e. proper treatment of animals is on point. So don't bash my opinions, I'm not attacking yours. Anyway to explain myself further, I felt extremely bad seeing the horses, and to me they looked depressed and of course who hasn't heard the stories of carriage horses in New York ect collapsing and dying because of the frightening and strenuous conditions they are being put in. Is that different here in Ireland? You're right tho, I don't know much about horses, so I would actually welcome the news that perhaps they aren't as miserable and mistreated as they looked, as I wouldnt feel so sad seeing them in town.

Valentina

SillyMangoX wrote: »

On a side note, when I was passing my mam saw one of the horses standing on three legs with one slightly bent, and starting aww-ing over the poor horse thinking it was lame. It didn't occur to her that horses like to rest their feet every now and again

On another side note, this is the 'stay mechanism' and allows horses to doze while standing up. My own mare has done this with me sitting on her back, it feels like I'm going to slide off her bum

I walk past the Green to and from work every day and the horses are in good condition from what I can see. OP, if you ever see something to be worried about just make a quick call to the DSPCA explaining that you've a concern.

Graces7

Lia_lia wrote: »

I was in Greece this summer and the poor Donkeys looked like they were in awful condition! Very upsetting.




Many of the jarveys are settled travellers (as in settled for many years!). My Grandmother lives a few doors down from a jarvey and the horses are very well taken care of. I can't say I've ever seen a malnourished looking horse in Killarney and I grew up there. I don't know about Dublin.

I meant settled travellers!

Many of the Killarney jarveys work within the National Park and are very carefully monitored All are of course licensed.

Graces7

BMmeow wrote: »

Look everyone, I know about the bad side of PETA, but I think the basic idea behind the organization, i.e. proper treatment of animals is on point. So don't bash my opinions, I'm not attacking yours. Anyway to explain myself further, I felt extremely bad seeing the horses, and to me they looked depressed and of course who hasn't heard the stories of carriage horses in New York ect collapsing and dying because of the frightening and strenuous conditions they are being put in. Is that different here in Ireland? You're right tho, I don't know much about horses, so I would actually welcome the news that perhaps they aren't as miserable and mistreated as they looked, as I wouldnt feel so sad seeing them in town.

Well you have learned new things here! Yes it is different here and certainly in Killarney where many work in the national park; they are licences and carefully monitored. We have a good reputation here.

Depressed? How do you work that out? Just resting is all

It is good that you care and I hope that you have been reassured now.

Spaniel heaven

Horses in Stevens green are immaculate actually beautiful examples of a working animal,
coats sleek and shiny, bright eyed etc etc.

As said above horses are not depressed just docile and have been bred to be that way.

Another point is that its no harm for people to be up close and personal with these animals, the more people interacting with animals the more they begin to have a respect for those said animals.

If your looking for another example Waterford is playing host to two Clydesdales, gentle giants and a shining example of well taken care of horses.

Graces7

Spaniel heaven wrote: »

Horses in Stevens green are immaculate actually beautiful examples of a working animal,
coats sleek and shiny, bright eyed etc etc.

As said above horses are not depressed just docile and have been bred to be that way.

Another point is that its no harm for people to be up close and personal with these animals, the more people interacting with animals the more they begin to have a respect for those said animals.

If your looking for another example Waterford is playing host to two Clydesdales, gentle giants and a shining example of well taken care of horses.

And dont forget the Traditional Farms at Muckross... Closed for the winter now though.. I am there a lot and the horses are great. My favourite place on this earth