Personal injuries/piab - War story from the front lines and some hard learned advice

kennM

I've debated writing this for quite some time and finally I've convinced myself to do it. NOTE: this does not constitute legal advice or recommendations, more me returning karma to the pool considering much of this has been cobbled together from advice, experience and chats from others.

This is basically the lessons learned after I had a motorbike accident a few years back the how I found the personal injuries process/dealing with insurance companies/hopefully some very useful nuggets of information etc. I'll warn you know, there is quite a bit here from start to finish.


SOME KEY PIECES OF ADVICE I'D RECOMMEND 100%
1) KEEP A DIARY - Someone recommended this to me and I wouldn't be the diary writing type but nevertheless I just kept an electronic copy (in notepad/wordpad) and updated every couple of days. If I had a medical appt I'd pop something in. If I was in particularly bad pain/up/down I'd pop something in... impacts in my personal life etc. In the short term it was largely useless. In the long term when it finally came to negotiating time, drafting papers, medico legal reports it WAS ABSOLUTELY INVALUABLE! As months, and often years pass, you will forget the impact your injuries have had on your life, the events your injuries have impacted/ruined, your mindset the suffering you had gone through, the number of medical appointments, names of consultants who had said what, what specialists treated what etc. When the time comes for negotiating etc. it is very helpful to get you into the right mindset.

2) PATIENCE - I've seen posts asking if claims can be settled in days/weeks... the short answer is, it depends. Sometimes and insurance company is happy to settle early. Just ask yourself the question, "When was the last time you saw generosity/empathy/compassion on a claims handlers job specification. Don't fool yourself, the objective of any insurance company is to get out of each and every claim as cheaply as possible. Bear this in mind in your situation. Balance it with risk etc.

3) HEALTH IS YOUR PRIORITY - DO NOT RUSH TO SETTLE YOUR CLAIM IF YOU HAVE SYMPTOMS/INJURIES WHERE YOU DON'T HAVE ABSOLUTE CLARITY ON. This is one I had to be careful with myself. I was naive with the medical profession and the legal profession at the outset, I've probably learned a lot more than I'd ever wanted to know.... I'm sure I've only scratched the surface. In my situation I still had symptoms ongoing.... one medical professional (Snr Consultant) who wrote a medico legal report (4/5 months after accident) believed that one of my injuries would be 100% healed inside 6 months. 18 months later I was in surgery twice & out of work for another 3 monnths to resolve that very same problem and have life long issues with it. So just be careful. It was actually a THIRD opinion before I found a medical professional who was in a position to improve my situation. Don't be afraid to get a second opinion.

4) IMO THE PROCESS IS DEEPLY UNFAIR TO THE INJURED PARTY/NOT IN THE WRONG - this is my own opinion from what I have experienced and you'll see how it's formed if you read on. Too often the other party drives away, pays a few extra €€€ in insurance and has no pain/suffering/stress/etc. and largely forgets about it and has a grumble at insurance renewal time.

5) ANYTHING SAID VERBALLY ISN'T WORTH THE PAPER IT'S WRITTEN ON - I learned this on two counts. My solicitor had been communicating with the claims handled and the claims handler was openly communicating to my solicitor that liability was not an issue, they never put this in writing... despite being requested. When push comes to shove they tried to defend the case to the 11th hour. I've also heard of cases where liability is verbally accepted but retracted later on.

6) DO YOUR RESEARCH - If you're reading this then well done, you're starting to do your research. Be as well informed as possible with regards to your injuries, prognosis, etc. etc. etc. it will help you hugely down the road. At the outset of a personal injuries case very very few people have a notion of what a fair settlement figure is. Ultimately you're being asked to settle on a price for something you've no notion on how to value. There are some very good websites out there that can help: the courts website has a useful search feature to search back and read through past personal injuries cases (You won't find them on the courts site through google), there is a "calculator" on the injuries boards website, consult the "Book of Quantum" there are a couple of others I can't think of at the mo.... if you're interested (and have read this far - reply and I'll try and dig a couple of them out for you). Some people wildly over-estimate what compensation they want for the injuries they've received. Do your homework here & be objective.


SCENE OF THE ACCIDENT...
In my case I wasn't really in a position to do a whole lot. Car hit me and took me off the motorbike and I hit the ground hard & didn't get up. BE WARNED... when you have an accident adrenalin is an incredibly powerful drug that kicks in after the accident. After the worst pain I'd experienced in my life & will never forget the adrenaline and shock kicked in, so much so that I was in minimal pain and having a laugh with the fire brigade guys who were strapping me to the back board. I actually had life threatening injuries, two days later I had been treated for collapsing lungs (had a chest tube in) and had 8 broken bones along with various other bits and pieces.... not to mention most of the unpleasant colours of the dulux range of various parts of my body. Speed was also not a factor here, it was a low speed accident! In the end it was accepted 100% liability on the other party (before the motorbike speeding/weaving/not obeying the rules of the road brigade arrive ).

Needless to say, but I will anyway, call the Gardai. Get independent witnesses contact details. Someone accepting liability at the scene is largely worthless. When people stand back and take stock of what's happened/what they are responsible for then stories change very quickly and you now start the fight. Exchange details with the other driver, this is vital. Get insurance policy numbers from the disc. & details of driver. If you can take photo's of the scene then do so. If there are local businesses etc. or can see CCTV footage that may have captured the incident then look into this also.



HEALTH INSURANCE (VHI in my case, not sure if same applies to other insurance providers)
I won't harp on this one too long but its CERTAINLY one of the factors that helped me to form my opinion in point 4 above. If you have health insurance and you intend on taking a civil action (claiming compensation for injuries) then my health insurer requested that I/my solicitor sign an undertaking. This undertaking essentially would mean that my health insurer would get 100% of their costs re-imbursed. On the surface, sounds fine? The Law Society of Ireland have instructed all solicitors not to sign these undertakings, you can instruct your solicitor to do so if you wish contrary to advice. So why are the Law Society saying no? Well ultimately it's to protect you. I understand there have been situations where liability is not established at 100% fault. For example if you are found 30% liable (know as contributory negligence) for your accident than you get 70% of your general damages and likely 70% of you special damages (out of pocket/medical expenses etc.). Leaving the claimant to foot the 30% shortfall back to your health insurer out of your settlement!!! The stupid thing about all of that? if you drove down the road and smashed into a wall where you were 100% at fault they'd happily pick up the medical costs and not a thing would be said (not quite but you get the point). Deeply unfair.

So what happens if the undertaking isn't signed? I can confirm what happened in my situation. Essentially I went to various hospitals/clinics for various procedures (diagnostic/surgical/etc), filled in my VHI claim form outlining all of the details. There is a section on the form asking if the costs can be recouped to which I say yes... fill in the details of accident and solicitor contact details etc. Hospital performs the procedure, send off the claim to VHI, VHI reject the claim on the basis of no undertaking has been signed, hospital invoice the patient (me) directly, I send invoice the solicitor, solicitor writes to hospital outlining the process..... repeat for each medical procedure. I got second demands, final demands, threatening legal action etc. from hospitals over outstanding invoices all of which my solicitor had to field and respond to. Hugely stressful.... why didn't I just pay them? medical bills were well into 5 figures and building.

Long story short... it's a nightmare/mess... I'd love if FSO (Financial Services Ombudsman) would deal with it in a landmark ruling and tell health insurance companies to cop on. Hopefully this has changed.


PIAB/Injuries Board
Tonnes of threads on this already so I'll just outline how it differed from the "vanilla" process for me. All personal injuries (bar medical negligence & 1 or 2 other things) legally have to go through PIAB (Injuries Board). In my case the insurance company never responded to the submission of the case, the respondent has 90 days to respond.... in my case (and I believe it may be the default) if insurance company fails to respond the default position that PIAB assume is that liability is not contested and proceed to assessment. Note: this is without prejudice (i.e they can still fight it tooth and nail down the road). As I understand it typical running time for a PIAB assessment is around the 7/7.5 month mark. They have a limit of 9 months but on rare(as I believe) occasions they can extend this. In my situation, after the first 9 months (which started ticking after the 3 months waiting for no reply) it was extended by a further 6 months and then a further 2 beyond that. After all that time they determined that they couldn't assess due to complexity of injuries and gave authorization to proceed to court.


MEDICO LEGAL REPORTS
Medico legal reports essentially are medical evidence from a legal perspective. Basically if you had an injury and it's not on a medico legal report, you didn't have it. Simples... the medical legal report essentially outlines the injury, what happened, treatment and long term prognosis based on the opinion of the writer. These are typically requested by your solicitor by request from treating medical professionals.


COURT PROCESS
So, you've got your authorisation to go to court. You may/may not have a solicitor. There are tonnes of threads regarding whether you should/should not have a solicitor from the outset.... I'm not going to give advice here. I did and it was helpful in my situation. From the time papers are prepared served & filed (might not have terminology 100% spot on here) it was about 6 months between paper filing and a court date (this was high court). So what happens when papers are filed?

I'll give the 10,000 feet view here. Your solicitor gets papers (your case essentially) drawn up and submits it to a barrister for advice. Quick side note here.... barristers are essentially independent big guns for hire, many will have specialisms in different areas. The barrister will be the one responsible for presenting and fighting your case in court. The barrister will give their opinion on what may need to be done/altered etc. e.g. getting an additional medical legal report, advice on evidence, engineers reports etc. etc. Essentially ensuring that your case is presented in the best possible way. Your papers basically outline the accident, your injuries (via medico legal report(s)) and outline why the other party was at fault. This is then served and the respondent (usually insurance company) prepares their defence. My solicitor was confident that the insurance company would provide what's called an "assessment defence" (based off verbal confirmation that liability was not an issue). i.e. we accept liability lets figure out numbers. However, at this stage the defence produced a full defence. Long story short... it's all about posturing now in the run up to the big fight. Your papers will say the respondent was in the wrong for the following 15 reasons. Their defence will outline how you're at fault for the following 20 reasons. Everyone sets out their stall and the grand game of chicken begins.... who blinks first. Things went quite for a long time.



TENDER OFFER
So what's a tender offer? As I understand it the defence can submit what's called a tender offer up to 8 weeks before the trial date (after that they can't). A tender offer is basically a full and final settlement offer (with a twist). If you say yes, naturally it's done and dusted... claim over. If you say no & you proceed to trial you need to be careful. The judge is not aware if a tender offer has been tabled at all and how much it may have been for. If the judge awards less compensation than the tender off the defence can "pull it out of their back pocket" and say how the claimant was unreasonable and didn't want to settle early/wasting court time/yada yada and you could get stung with their legal costs and your legal costs. Tread carefully here. In my case the tender offer was a last minute ill prepared attempt which was way low balled so said no with little/no risk.


NEGOTIATIONS
The defence tried to get a hold of us for negotiations a couple of weeks before trial however one of our focused medico legal reports had a nasty surprise in it that we hadn't expected (guess I had that to look forward to in later life) or costed so cancelled. Things went quite again until the days before the trial. In my case it was 3 days before the trial when the defence wanted to meet for negotiations again. I was 100% confident about going to trial if required (my diary was invaluable here in refreshing my memory of everything I'd gone through and getting me into the right mindset), I'd waited almost 4 years and another 3 days wasn't going to make a difference to me.

Be wary of floaters!!! (this isn't toilet humour, I'll explain in a mo)

This was the first time I'd met my junior and senior counsel and have to say she was SUPERB. She outlined exactly the case, the injuries, what a fair level of compensation was (which matched up to all the research I had done) and started the ball rolling. She was actually quite a character. e.g. coming out to put "offers" to me knowing well it was still a low ball but out of courtesy to the defence she was "putting them to me" when she was largely stretching her legs and knew they still weren't in the right ball park. She was an incredibly reassuring safe pair of hands. It went back and forth for a couple of hours and we arrived at a fair number and that was that. It was agreed, signed and that was it. I have to say it was one of the most anti-climactic events in my life. Walked out of the four courts onto the quays and that was it, it was finally over.

So what's this floaters reference? It was a former colleague of mine who'd gone through the negotiations process in the four courts (his wife had a bad accident the year before me), unfortunately they weren't able to secure a meeting room to hold up in and were out in the open area of the four courts (like we were). Floaters are essentially hired ears for the insurance companies doing their utmost to overhear, read body language etc. etc. to understand your mindset/confidence/etc. (to use a poker analogy - trying to take a peek at your hand during the game). He had spotted one during his negotiations and I personally spotted at least 1 who was conveniently close by any time my barrister was back from negotiations. Be warned, it happens... it's all a grand game of posturing and charades, show no weakness.


SETTLEMENT
So once it was agreed, cheque was issued to my solicitor about 4 weeks later and bills could start to be paid.



Thanks for reading, I hope something above comes to the aide of others going through the process and I feel a little better by returning some of the karma to the pool

goz83

Very good post Ken. I had been thinking about a diary of my own pain/suffering/inconvenience. Was this for your own reference only, or was it made available to your solicitor?

kennM

goz83 wrote: »

Very good post Ken. I had been thinking about a diary of my own pain/suffering/inconvenience. Was this for your own reference only, or was it made available to your solicitor?

Own reference only... it was actually amusing in spots as you could read back over the ups and downs you inevitably have. One of my entries had something along the lines of.... "I can't help but think this diary will be a chronicle of my gradual loosening grip on sanity".....

goz83

Funny quote. and i have a good idea of what u mean too.

I have kept an expenses excel sheet, which includes notes and dates of significant events, like, when i had to stop driving and when i was able to start again (but in an auto). Also when i had gp visits and prescription renewals and the likes of that. I will take some good info from that post. I am seriously thinking about closing my business, because at times, it is impossible to see clients due to the pain I can experience. I have already cut my contact hours, but it hasn't been enough. That'sthe kind of stuff I think shoukd be noted, because while the injuries are physical, they have quite a significant psychological impact. I am generally a positive thinker and I have noticed this slipping over the months, as I lose all faith in our health service. Anyway, I won't post more on this thread, as I don't want to derail it in any way.

kilp10

Great post OP. 100% back the recommendation of keeping a diary. I've been unfortunate to have two bad accidents in a fairly close space of time (liability accepted by the other side in both cases) but as the first case hadn't closed out when the second accident happened, it's complicated things significantly. I'm incredibly glad I engaged a solicitor from the beginning but a diary has been invaluable for recording symptoms, lows, highs, progress and reminding me that the bad days have existed when on a good day! Also very useful for doctor/consultant visits. The quotes entered on some days have given a few laughs to people alright :-)

The other bit of advice I'd give is, don't be tempted to exaggerate, the piab or other side docs will grill you until they're satisfied you're telling the truth. This is where the diary helped hugely (I maintain it electronically too). We actually had a bit of a joke about weeding out the chancers when he finally relented and started to feel sorry for me. Have also kept an excel costs spreadsheet with every single physio, gp, consultant visit as well as MRIs etc. Everything has been recorded, how much it cost, what the health insurance has paid for etc...

Also, if a consultant tells you to do something such as rehab etc, do it. It shows a willingness and determination to get better.

Go to every nth degree to get to the root of a problem especially if it's impacting on your life. GPs won't always do this for you. Do your research and get an idea of what to ask for. Keep pushing until you are satisfied the root cause is identified. If I hadn't I wouldn't have found out this week that there's a lingering problem that could impact me big time in the future. Gp was kind of saying time, rest etc but being a usually very active person, rest is only good for so long until you need an accurate diagnosis. Also, follow up and request copies of mri reports, consultant reports etc. They usually get sent back to your gp who quite often don't read them unless you remind them... it's good to have your own record keeping done.

Lastly, remember the priority in all this is you. It's your future and your body. Be proactive about your recovery, very hard I know. I wasn't able to be proactive for about two months after the recent one as it hit me incredibly hard. I can't help think though that people would get better faster if money for physio and the right consultants/treatment wasn't an issue. Recovery is an expensive process but don't settle before you're ready.

Feel free to pm with questions if you don't want to post.

goz83

kilp10 wrote: »

I've been unfortunate to have two bad accidents in a fairly close space of time (liability accepted by the other side in both cases) but as the first case hadn't closed out when the second accident happened, it's complicated things significantly.

Hmmmm. Similar to me, only my claim had recently settled, but the whiplash injury was still a niggling one now and then. First one was in 2011 when rear ended. That settled exactly 2 years later via the injuries board. The assessment was certainly nothing spectactular, but I have never been one to be greedy, or exaggerate.

kilp10 wrote: »

I can't help think though that people would get better faster if money for physio and the right consultants/treatment wasn't an issue. Recovery is an expensive process but don't settle before you're ready.

It would make so much sense fir the insurance companies to pay for the injured parties medical needs. It would dramatically cut down the costs to them in most cases. If they paid for the spinal surgery I need, i would most likely have already recovered and the overall cost to settle would be greatly reduced, because the impact on my life would be shortened.

Oops, i posted again

MaggotBrain

Thanks OP. Some questions:
did you negotiate at all with the defence or was it all through your counsel?
What percentage of the settlement was taken in costs (legal costs)

kennM

MaggotBrain wrote: »

Thanks OP. Some questions:
did you negotiate at all with the defence or was it all through your counsel?
What percentage of the settlement was taken in costs (legal costs)

All through counsel... they're the experts here and you're probably best letting the expert do what their good at.

I can only comment from my perspective. When you're negotiating it's for a single figure which will include general and special damages. Legal costs were covered but not out of my settlement figure. So defence essentially pay negotiated figure (for general and special) + legal costs. Legal fees are treated separately from your settlement. Hope it helps.... in my case defence was 100% liable, not sure how it breaks down if there is contributory negligence on behalf of claimant.

dhidra

Thanks for posting your story. You must have been very relieved to yet it finished.
It's very hard to find information re fair settlements. Lots of people say the book of quantam is outdated. And people aren't keen to disclose what the get. Ah well, as long as my costs are covered, that's the main thing.

kennM

dhidra wrote: »

Thanks for posting your story. You must have been very relieved to yet it finished.
It's very hard to find information re fair settlements. Lots of people say the book of quantam is outdated. And people aren't keen to disclose what the get. Ah well, as long as my costs are covered, that's the main thing.

Absolutely.... if you want I can dig out a few of the links I found useful in trying to research settlement amounts. It is very much a dark art but research can help a lot

tomaussie

kennM wrote: »

Absolutely.... if you want I can dig out a few of the links I found useful in trying to research settlement amounts. It is very much a dark art but research can help a lot

Are you posting these links on the thread? If not, can you pm me them. Thanks.

kennM

tomaussie wrote: »

Are you posting these links on the thread? If not, can you pm me them. Thanks.

Hey Tom, I'll try and dig them out a little later and post them up accordingly, possibly tomorrow.... if it helps people then great

kennM

tomaussie wrote: »

Are you posting these links on the thread? If not, can you pm me them. Thanks.

Found a few mins this morning..... here are 4 links I found very useful (and re-visited many times in the few years my case was running), run back through all the archive articles to try and assess. It's important to remember that it's not an exact science. Many factors come into consideration but you should be able to get a ball park idea at least....

• http://www.moloneysolicitors.ie/2014/11
• http://www.injury-compensation.ie/news/
• http://www.courts.ie/Courts.ie/Library3.nsf/0/36C77B40A61FCB6C802577230041B064?OpenDocument (Courts service, use the search and enter terms like "Personal injuries"
• http://www.personalinjuryireland.ie/news/

dhidra

kennM wrote: »

Absolutely.... if you want I can dig out a few of the links I found useful in trying to research settlement amounts. It is very much a dark art but research can help a lot

That would be brilliant, thanks.

kennM

dhidra wrote: »

That would be brilliant, thanks.

Links I found most useful in post above.... hope it helps.

goz83

Slightly off topic, but is it just me, or does it appear that women and the elderly seem to receive significantly larger court settlements than men? I know many factors must be considered, but it seems like women generally receive higher settlements and a few noted sympathy words from the judges awarding damages.

Although the USA claims are astronomical!!! Who the hell would sue a bloody 4 year old?

Thanks Ken. Very interesting links.

kennM

goz83 wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but is it just me, or does it appear that women and the elderly seem to receive significantly larger court settlements than men? I know many factors must be considered, but it seems like women generally receive higher settlements and a few noted sympathy words from the judges awarding damages.

Although the USA claims are astronomical!!! Who the hell would sue a bloody 4 year old?

Thanks Ken. Very interesting links.

From everything I've read over the years there are many factors at play, age, sex, impact on life, psychological impact of injuries - for example scar on a woman vs. scar on a man, elderly may require longer rehabilitation/sheltered/assisted living etc.

USA is just moon money in some situations...

dhidra

Interesting reading, thanks! Some of the stories are mad altogether.

nuac

Very good and comprehensive post KennM

A few points

1 Liability

Scene of accident needs to be investigated immediately - photographs taken and engineers surveys immediately. Witnesses contacted etc. The scene can change, sometimes within days, or later from e.g.roadworks. If it is a factory machine, all protective guards, lighting etc will certainly be in place soon after the defendants engineer gets there.

PIAB are unlikely to give an unqualified open admission of liability. If PIAB decide after some months to dispute liability, some significant factors affecting liability may not be available.

Therefore it is prudent to employ a solicitor to organise above asap. The engineeer and photographer need to have court experience.

2. Medical

Need to ensure that all medical reports and procedures are recommended by GP or someone else on the medical team, otherwise it may be alleged client is shopping around for sympathetic reports.

MRI scans are useful but expensive. Defendants may dispute paying for any unless shown that it is requested by one of the medicos,

3.

Special damages

Notebbooks etc are a good idea, to build up a spreadsheet of these.

4

Settlement negotiations

Always a good idea if insurers seem genuine about settling fairly. Sometimes at an early stage i.e. before tender, they may be use it to get an indication of the tender level.

Matter for the skill, experience etc of your legal team. The claims people are highly experienced in these matters. Unless the plaintiff is as experienced, leave it to your legal team.

5. Floaters

Would be unethical to have someone eavesdrop on the other sides conversations. Haven't heard of that, altho I heard of one case about a tape recorder. Have always told clients to look confident and organised - it helps if the legal team do the same.

Some insurers won't settle until the case is called on and starts. They will be watching to see if the plaintiff ( practically always the first witness ) is prepared to go into the box and give evidence. The final offer may then come only when the plaintiff has given evidence, or at first meal break.

I have advised clients to walk confidently into court, even tho they would prefer to be elsewhere. ( In my experience few lay people are anxious to be in court. I would be worried about any that are ). Usefuil to show clients the inside of the courtroom before hand

In some court venues there are consultation rooms furnished with tables, chairs etc available which give some privacy. In other venues decisions are made after whispered conversations in a corner of the hall outside the court. Wrong and unfair on the litigants

NoQuarter

Good post OP.

A few minor points:

The "tender offer" is called a "Calderbank offer" named after the original case in which it arose. It would show you know what you're talking about if you can call it that. A good way to describe it is by calling it a hurdle you have to beat. Don't beat the hurdle and you will have to pay the other sides legal costs, even if you technically win your case.

Counsel has to put any offers to you as they are obligated to do so, it's not a courtesy thing.

I've never heard of floaters myself, I wonder how true that is but either way, it's never a bad idea to hold your cards close to your chest and be subtle when talking to your legal team in the hall of the Courts.

kennM

NoQuarter wrote: »

Good post OP.

A few minor points:

The "tender offer" is called a "Calderbank offer" named after the original case in which it arose. It would show you know what you're talking about if you can call it that. A good way to describe it is by calling it a hurdle you have to beat. Don't beat the hurdle and you will have to pay the other sides legal costs, even if you technically win your case.

Counsel has to put any offers to you as they are obligated to do so, it's not a courtesy thing.

I've never heard of floaters myself, I wonder how true that is but either way, it's never a bad idea to hold your cards close to your chest and be subtle when talking to your legal team in the hall of the Courts.

Thanks for clarification. I know it's called a Calderbank offer, when tabled (in my situation it was referred to as a Tender offer & I would suspect that's what it's more commonly referred to in lay terms). From a legal perspective you are absolutely right..... I wanted to write my post to be understood easily. Very good analogy with regards to hurdle....

With regards to floaters... my colleague observed this happening in his case and it was flagged to him. From my perspective I believe there was at least one person intentionally trying to overhear when my Counsel was back discussing offers that had been tabled.

Obligations/courtesy - From a lay person going through the process this is how I've seen it. Counsel put the offer to me, in reality we knew the offer wasn't even in the right ball park & fell quite short. Counsel knew this also and our discussion was naturally brief....

Yurple

Thanks for the great post. Very informative.

I have an open case that is going to the high court.. but when is the question. My accident happened 3 years ago that caused a shoulder injury that is permanent. I am only 25 now and I will have pain for the rest of my life because of a faulty product.

I have solicitor but they NEVER give me any updates what so ever. This is extremely frustrating.

An engineer came out within a few days of the accident and did tests and took a lot of photographs. I got a medico legal report with the exact medical details. All dates, times, names etc were written down as well and emailed to solicitor + a copy has been saved by me. The faulty product is also kept by me.

The other party has refused any settlement so far either out of court / from personal injury board ireland (they refused the personal injury board ireland offer on the final day of the deadline...) I do not think they will. My solicitor tells me this is normal in these cases?

It has been 3 years and the only thing I have heard back so far is that the other party's solicitor firm gave my solicitor a list of around 60 questions.

Is this normal? 3 years and nothing yet? Is this a bad sign nothing will happen? Do solicitors only contact you when they need to? They dont provide updates or anything or should I be contacting them?

Thanks again!

Pat Mustard

Yurple wrote: »

hey dont provide updates or anything or should I be contacting them?

If you want updates, you should contact your solicitors to ask for updates. You can ask them why it has been three years and you haven't seen the inside of a courthouse.

kennM

Yurple wrote: »

Thanks for the great post. Very informative.

I have an open case that is going to the high court.. but when is the question. My accident happened 3 years ago that caused a shoulder injury that is permanent. I am only 25 now and I will have pain for the rest of my life because of a faulty product.

I have solicitor but they NEVER give me any updates what so ever. This is extremely frustrating.

An engineer came out within a few days of the accident and did tests and took a lot of photographs. I got a medico legal report with the exact medical details. All dates, times, names etc were written down as well and emailed to solicitor + a copy has been saved by me. The faulty product is also kept by me.

The other party has refused any settlement so far either out of court / from personal injury board ireland (they refused the personal injury board ireland offer on the final day of the deadline...) I do not think they will. My solicitor tells me this is normal in these cases?

It has been 3 years and the only thing I have heard back so far is that the other party's solicitor firm gave my solicitor a list of around 60 questions.

Is this normal? 3 years and nothing yet? Is this a bad sign nothing will happen? Do solicitors only contact you when they need to? They dont provide updates or anything or should I be contacting them?

Thanks again!

Completely second what The Mustard has stated... chase up with your solicitor. I personally found that you may not hear from solicitor for months and months on end depending on where the case is at, and sometimes there can be a huge flurry of activity.

Here is the paraphrased process as I understand it...

1) Accident happens - ouch, ball starts rolling. You have 2 years from date of accident to file a personal injury claim.
2) Solicitor (or you) prepares your case for the Injuries Board.

Once you make your complaint the plaintiff is notified that a civil case has been lodged and they can either reject liability or does not dispute liability AT THIS POINT - They may dispute liability later

While the injuries board process is in flight the 2 year time limit is essentially put on pause.
3) So - It comes out of the injuries board... either (a) they dispute liability and don't allow injuries board to assess (b) injuries board feel injuries are too complex/haven't settled and give authorisation to pursue through courts (c) Injuries board proposed a settlement figure and you said no or (d) injuries board proposed a settlement figure and they said no. NOTE: Different implications to each of the above but this isn't what I'm discussing here.
4) Assuming the claim is being taken further at this point, which is what's happening for you. Your solicitor prepares papers for the high court and files them. These are also served on the plaintiff.
5) The plaintiff are then entitled to ask for "Notice of particulars"... which for all intense purposes are a raft of questions. Some of them they are entitled to answers and some of them are fishing and they get should get told where to go. Don't try and figure out which is which here.... your solicitor will know which ones should be answered.
6) Once the "Notice of particulars" are completed the defense then supply their defense. To draw an incredibly simple analogy... claimants case says defendant is liable for the following 20 reasons.... defense comes back saying they are not & you may be for the following 30 reasons. I would suspect this is where you are at? Get onto your solicitor to see if this is the case, your solicitor should be getting a little pressure on for them to supply defense.Everything is put in the pressure cook and left to simmer while you await a court date.

This is typically a quite period and nothing happens.
7) You'll get notice of your court date. If memory serves it was circa 6 months for me between filing papers and getting court date.
8) The defense have until, if memory serves, 8 weeks before trial date to put what's called a "Calderbank Offer"... this is essentially an offer to settle your case in full. Be careful if one materialises, naturally it's a good sign in the fact that the defense are accepting an element of liability OR they think it'll be cheaper to throw a few €€ at you rather than spending the cost to fight it.... this offer is without prejudice (i.e. doesn't imply admitted liability). The reason I say be careful is that if you say no and it goes to court and the judge awards less compensation, BTW judge ins't aware of presence of the offer.... then you could get stung with yours & theirs legal costs. TAKE LEGAL ADVICE here.... this will be a time of activity in your case. DO YOUR RESEARCH.... have an understanding of what a fair level of compensation is. Don't overinflate due to your own circumstances.... it's a numbers game from a legal point of view.
9) Beyond the "Calderbank Offer" the defense can still make offers to settle - right up to day of court case and even during.... they are typically not binding like the Calderbank Offer... i.e. they can't really beat you over the head with it if judge offers less.

For all intense purposes it's a big game of chicken, who blinks first whilst you wait for court dates.

Just a quick update... hope it helps. Talk to your solicitor. Just remember the old analogy, the squeaky wheel gets the oil

Yurple

Thank you very much for your highly detailed answer. It's a recap of your post (which I read twice) but it's nice to see it in my point of view of exactly the steps that happened.

Every step you outlined happened exactly as you described. I am now on point 7.

kennM wrote: »

6) Once the "Notice of particulars" are completed the defense then supply their defense. To draw an incredibly simple analogy... claimants case says defendant is liable for the following 20 reasons.... defense comes back saying they are not & you may be for the following 30 reasons. I would suspect this is where you are at? Get onto your solicitor to see if this is the case, your solicitor should be getting a little pressure on for them to supply defense.Everything is put in the pressure cook and left to simmer while you await a court date.

Point 6 you mentioned the Notice of Particulars. I received this and filled it out with extreme detail (because of the diary of events I kept like you) - They asked for certain things and I could answer every single question with names, dates, places, etc.

There were a couple of strange questions that did not make sense. I left them blank and explained to the solicitor that they have to answer as they see fit. They were probably fishing for weaknesses?

Question: Is it normal for the other party to hire an ENTIRE company legal professionals instead of one or two people?

---

When I phoned my solicitor last I asked for an update. We are waiting for a court date/judge? He said it should take around 7 or 8 months. The 8 month was November... I hate things like this. Why say 7 or 8 months when it isn't? Really frustrating.


Thanks again. This really helped me A LOT. A little nervous for the offer stage but I will get advice from as many people as possible and keep my poker face :pac:

kennM

Yurple wrote: »

Thank you very much for your highly detailed answer. It's a recap of your post (which I read twice) but it's nice to see it in my point of view of exactly the steps that happened.

Every step you outlined happened exactly as you described. I am now on point 7.


Point 6 you mentioned the Notice of Particulars. I received this and filled it out with extreme detail (because of the diary of events I kept like you) - They asked for certain things and I could answer every single question with names, dates, places, etc.

There were a couple of strange questions that did not make sense. I left them blank and explained to the solicitor that they have to answer as they see fit. They were probably fishing for weaknesses?

Question: Is it normal for the other party to hire an ENTIRE company legal professionals instead of one or two people?

---

When I phoned my solicitor last I asked for an update. We are waiting for a court date/judge? He said it should take around 7 or 8 months. The 8 month was November... I hate things like this. Why say 7 or 8 months when it isn't? Really frustrating.


Thanks again. This really helped me A LOT. A little nervous for the offer stage but I will get advice from as many people as possible and keep my poker face :pac:

Happy to help, feel free to PM if you wish... I understand about concern around posting on open forums. If memory serves, a little rusty, notice of particulars are entitled to statements of fact around the incident itself.... as I understand it this is often partially a fishing exercise. E.g. trying to get a hold of details around past medical complaints, full details around medical appointments/doctors seen etc. Be careful here, for example if you went to see a doctor and don't have a medico legal report from them.... they are trying to find any possible loose threads to pull at. I repeat discuss this part with solicitor, they are best positioned to advise.

With regards to hiring of legal professionals. I can't really comment on the specifics here.... I could speculate. For example if a medical device failed and they lost a civil case, proving their product faulty, it could lead to a slew of complaints/product being withdrawn etc. etc. etc. Certain companies have policies, for example I've heard of an insurance company who fight every single civil claim from certain occupations regardless of how black and white it is, I've heard of some insurance companies automatically fighting claims above a certain value right through to the bitter end. In my case it probably cost them an extra 20/30K in legal fees to adopt this stance.

Regards solicitor saying 7/8 months they are providing you with the best estimate of how long a court date may take. Solicitor has no control over how long court date will actually take, depends on a lot of things... expected length of trial, civil case backlog, which court (district/circuit/high), lists, etc. Don't let this get to you, I've gone through the rollercoaster and completely understand. How long since notice of particulars has been returned? has your solicitor been pushing the other side for a defence?

The best solution to offer stage is research, research, research.... I posted links to some sites I've used to get a handle on a "fair" valuation for my injuries, every case is unique but I generally looked through to try and identify settlement amounts & understand if they were more or less injured than myself and what the settlement figure was..... this helped me peg it around a reasonable value. It's hard not to let emotion factor into the calculations but the heartless reality of it is that the only person emotionally attached to it is yourself.... don't let this over/under estimate. If you're ill informed/prepared then you either may make a poor decision or hold for an unrealistic figure that may never materialise.

With regards to negotiations you won't need to be in the same room as defence solicitors/barristers.... this is typically handled by your barrister and defence barrister/solicitors and they will convey back and forth to you.

Unfortunately it's all about patience, patience patience.... months will go past and nothing will happens and days will come by that are a flurry of activity.

Happy to pass some karma back into the pool, I got some great knowledge from people on here over the years.