One FC allowing soccer kicks

monkey8

Just seen Brandon Vera winning at the latest one FC event from soccer kicks to the head of a downed opponent.
Looks horrible and is completely unnecessary and gives anti mma lobbyist all the ammunition they need.
Thoughts?

Peetrik

Any video?

Depends how 'downed' he was really, I know the rules for MMA say something like a hand or knee on the ground is 'downed' but when people scuttle forward with one hand trailing on the ground to take advantage of that rule to avoid striking at all then I find it hard to feel much sympathy.

Niall Keane

Have you lads been under a rock?

Art of War in China has allowed such for over a decade. Its why Sanda suits it so well, you don't FCK around on your ass when you can get the head kckd off ya!!!

Given the population of China and the recent incorporation of ground game (bjj) into their Sanda programmes , expect a take over within 15 years. The athletic commissions of the USA which dictate to ufc etc. And disallow downward elbows and soccer kicks will end up leaving wrestling favouring USA MMA to the B-card.
I expect many will disagree, but they probably never been to China, Wushu like their athletics is an industry, with kids training from 5 and under like professionals. And just like most foreigners cannot hope to compete against Thai boxers from Thailand whose culture inspires similar training and gaining of experience from an early age, same will be with MMA and China, Christ the top in China is the top of 2 billion, Europe or USA is just a large Provence!

Pride FC also offered dynamically more than ufc, and paid much more, gambling is huge in the east and so the purses are better. Its a no-brainer. Also as anyone with experience of the Chinese will tell you, they will make offers one cannot refuse to the best international coaches to train their athletes .... Just a matter of time .

For the future MMA hopefuls better start training for soccer kicks!

Doug Cartel

Niall Keane wrote: »

Have you lads been under a rock?

Art of War in China has allowed such for over a decade. Its why Sanda suits it so well, you don't FCK around on your ass when you can get the head kckd off ya!!!

Weren't soccer kicks allowed in Pride? How was sanda doing back then?

Given the population of China and the recent incorporation of ground game (bjj) into their Sanda programmes , expect a take over within 15 years.

So basically you are saying that BJJ becoming popular in a large country will mean that people from that country will start taking over MMA? I didn't realise you were such a big fan of BJJ.

Niall Keane

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Weren't soccer kicks allowed in Pride? How was sanda doing back then?



So basically you are saying that BJJ becoming popular in a large country will mean that people from that country will start taking over MMA? I didn't realise you were such a big fan of BJJ.

I'm not, no interest, but just saying a lad who is the best of 2 billion is probably better than the lad who is county Mayo champ... Once the game is learned, the best coaches poached and the unmatched money and resources put in! There will be exceptions, but let's not kid ourselves here!

Niall Keane

For example do you know that the iwuf presently get equivalent of 1/3 billion euro every 4 months from the 333million wushu members in China? Btw they win most Sanda medals followed by Russia who also have a big investment in the sport.

How much does the Irish government put into the sport?

Does an amateur get a living wage off the government to support themselves and their family for competing?

It doesn't guarantee success, but it makes it a hell a lot easier!

Peetrik

I just can't get into the mainstream MMA, the striking tends to be mediocre all the ground stuff is plain dull. Give me quality striking anyday.

Just searched for art of war there though and it looks pretty good!

Niall Keane wrote: »

just saying a lad who is the best of 2 billion is probably better than the lad who is county Mayo champ

We're not really talking China vs Mayo though, more China vs America + others. To put it another way, the USA tend to get more olympic medals than China despite the population difference.

Doug Cartel

Niall Keane wrote: »

I'm not, no interest, but just saying a lad who is the best of 2 billion

It's just that before the started doing the BJJ it didn't seem they were beating everyone up with the sanda, even when soccer kicks were allowed. You really think BJJ is going to be that X-factor they need to make it happen?

just saying a lad who is the best of 2 billion is probably better than the lad who is county Mayo champ

Surprisingly, this isn't as clear as you might think. There is a book called Bounce that I think talks about this. There is a diminishing return when you look at the best out of 1000, vs 100000, vs millions or billions.

Niall Keane

And just to be clear I'm not suggesting Sanda "invented" the soccer kick at all, there's little or no ground in Sanda.

But fighting and culture are intertwined, I've already pointed out how legal culture has influence over sport.

In USA wrestling is a high school and college activity much like our GAA, and so it stands to reason that the MMA rulesets in the USA adopt such a flavour.

Not being able to land kicks into an opponent who chooses to sit on their arse and having to reach and trip over them is a big fallacy! You see all sorts of crazy smersault **** just to overcome the ruleset. You're not going to start punching at someone's legs and so be in range and open to be ko as your shoulder level must drop to punch their legs, or move them aside, but kicking them into submission isnt so risky. Their are miles away from your sweet spots, that's just martial fact.

And when eastern promoters advertise such which is inevitable to devalue the west and elevate themselves , as they don't go in for intellectual rights and patents but rather "use the barbarians for our advantage" we WILL see western promotions take the back stage given we live in a "global village" where gambling is the lifeblood of professional combat sports and all...

Niall Keane

Peetrik wrote: »

I just can't get into the mainstream MMA, the striking tends to be mediocre all the ground stuff is plain dull. Give me quality striking anyday.

Just searched for art of war there though and it looks pretty good!




We're not really talking China vs Mayo though, more China vs America + others. To put it another way, the USA tend to get more olympic medals than China despite the population difference.

That's a good point, guess I'm rattling the cage a bit in honesty. I think the UFC are being played for fools and are way out of their depth with China. I have some inside info from a UFC consultant on that. And of course I'm familiar with the Chinese martial scene.

I guess there is a limit to the human body and we see negligible difference and a lot of luck on the day playing out at say Olympic gymnastics, BUT the winners are teams with big purses, not the Irish-style nations who have granted the once in a hundred years champ like Katie Taylor and look what the extra funding has done for Irish boxing! You can't escape the advantage early professional training offers. Its not impossible to do well without it, but it doesn't hurt. Even the guidance and related avoidance of wasted direction is golddust to an athlete with a short shelf life.

Doug Cartel

Niall Keane wrote: »

And just to be clear I'm not suggesting Sanda "invented" the soccer kick at all, there's little or no ground in Sanda.

I know you aren't suggesting this. I was just saying that when the Chinese were focused on sanda, they weren't making major inroads into a MMA promotion where soccer kicks were allowed. Maybe this new focus on BJJ will change this. Who knows really.

In USA wrestling is a high school and college activity much like our GAA, and so it stands to reason that the MMA rulesets in the USA adopt such a flavour.

OK, I'm with you so far...

Not being able to land kicks into an opponent who chooses to sit on their arse and having to reach and trip over them is a big fallacy!

Wait, now I'm lost. I didn't realise wrestling encouraged you to sit on your bum. Actually I thought it encouraged you to do anything but go on your back, what with having pins measured in fractions of seconds.

Doug Cartel

Niall Keane wrote: »

BUT the winners are the big purses, not the Irish-style nations who have granted the once in a hundred years champ like Katie Taylor

Have you ever heard of the country Grorgia? They have a population about the same as ours and they are extremely successful in combat sports.

Niall Keane

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I know you aren't suggesting this. I was just saying that when the Chinese were focused on sanda, they weren't making major inroads into a MMA promotion where soccer kicks were allowed. Maybe this new focus on BJJ will change this. Who knows really.




OK, I'm with you so far...



Wait, now I'm lost. I didn't realise wrestling encouraged you to sit on your bum. Actually I thought it encouraged you to do anything but go on your back, what with having pins measured in fractions of seconds.

Yes yes yes... But we all have seen MMA matches start with a lad drop to his ass, not many but some high level fighters (Gracie's) have done just this. That's regulatory gaming as far as I'm concerned.
And also more frequently the strategy of bringing to ground rather than set up a submission is used to avoid the danger of a good striker. As let's be honest even in ground and pound the power of a strike isn't anything like when fully issued from the legs!

Its play it safe to go to ground and sound judgement for a less skilful striker. But it does capitalise on the ruleset.

You don't score pins in MMA but a wrestling bias in the ruleset makes it a no brainer for an american ex-college - highschool wrestler to adopt.

Evidently, Contrast how fast athletes get back up in art of war with ufc.

Doug Cartel

Niall Keane wrote: »

Yes yes yes... But we all have seen MMA matches start with a lad drop to his ass, not many but some high level fighters (Gracie's) have done just this. That's regulatory gaming as far as I'm concerned.

Are you talking about top level MMA here? I ask, because if I posted about a bunch of low level sanda guys like they represented the style as a whole it wouldn't be cool.

Also, it's been a long while since "Gracie's" have been considered leading competitors in the world of MMA. Things have moved on since those days. Kron has made some noises about making it using Gracie Jiu jitsu, but he's a bit untested in MMA just now.

Niall Keane

I also think that the massive difference in purse between pride and ufc made for a different class of event years ago. That was a time when only washed out bums did ufc getting 2k a fight, it wouldn't pay your flights and hotel never mind your years training, where as pride paid 100k plus at the time.

Even today ufc years after pride is gone pays most fighters **** purses, given their carear life expectancy its pathetic. Top ten lads earning less than 100k ! Didn't the top 16 in k1 and pride get that 10 years ago? The UFCs greed will be their downfall. They should have learned when the Chinese rep walked out of the negotiation when they offered 38m to an org that was earning 330m every 4 months from standard membership!

Niall Keane

Just to be clear, I'm not getting at MMA , or MMA fighters, many Sanda lads have gone on to MMA , many of my own friends.
I'm getting at ufc rulesets. As you pointedout pride had ssoccer kicks, and like I said art of war has.
I just think too much focus has been placed on ufc in the west, it is a single albeit largest promotion, but I don't think it will monopolise forever MMA, and I see clouds on the horizon.
What would happen if the senior managent of ufc had a plane crash or all decided to retire immediately? Would the junior managers move up and would everyone respect them and not want to go it alone rather than kaotao to a junior? Just like any private company, the strength of a monopoly is also its longterm weakness.
Right now coaches and fighters respect it as its the only real game in town and its promotions feed their clubs.
But nothing lasts forever, and monopolies tend to make others feel unfairly excluded. Combined with sh1t purses no one can retire on, well its not very sustainable?

Like the Gracie's made their name from the lack of ground in other styles so could a well financed promoter do likewise with soccer kicks etc. Now. It would even appeal to the more striker orientated audience like Peetrik AMD myself ;-)

It won't happen in Brazil, they lack the financial backing, but China? Everything there has state backing, and "face" is a big thing in Chinese culture. As for purses, with gambling being their national sport, I'd expect multiples of ufc wages.
Right now they are simply educatingbtheir audience. Transitioning from pure Sanda to MMA.
I'll give an example - the last Sanda cup - each fighter gets 100k, the stadium hosted 60,000 people and pay per view had 1.2billion - that's why ufc are interested in China! And ultimately of you know anything about how the Chinese do business you realise its why the ufc is doomed.
So... Practice those soccer kicks ;-)

Mellor

monkey8 wrote: »

Just seen Brandon Vera winning at the latest one FC event from soccer kicks to the head of a downed opponent.
Looks horrible and is completely unnecessary and gives anti mma lobbyist all the ammunition they need.
Thoughts?

Soccer kicks have always been in some promotion or another.
One FC previously required "open attack" to be in place. But that rule was awful.

I don't like soccer kicks, but I don't think it's gives the anti-lobby too much ammo either. One FC is mainly based in Asia, it's just not relevant to their debate. As far as the antis are concerned the UFC is all that matters.

Mellor

Niall Keane wrote: »

In USA wrestling is a high school and college activity much like our GAA, and so it stands to reason that the MMA rulesets in the USA adopt such a flavour.

MMA in the US existed long before the adoption of a the unified ruleset.
Originally head kicks, headbutts, hair pulling etc were all fair game.
The guys coming out on too were still the grapplers and strikers.

Not being able to land kicks into an opponent who chooses to sit on their arse and having to reach and trip over them is a big fallacy! You see all sorts of crazy smersault **** just to overcome the ruleset. You're not going to start punching at someone's legs and so be in range and open to be ko as your shoulder level must drop to punch their legs, or move them aside, but kicking them into submission isnt so risky. Their are miles away from your sweet spots, that's just martial fact.

The current rules prevents kicks to their heads. But you can still kick then else where. I don't anyone would opt to punch their legs.

And when eastern promoters advertise such which is inevitable to devalue the west and elevate themselves , as they don't go in for intellectual rights and patents but rather "use the barbarians for our advantage" we WILL see western promotions take the back stage given we live in a "global village" where gambling is the lifeblood of professional combat sports and all...

Eastern promotions have had those rules for the last 20 years. They haven't yet taken over, and in fact a lot of promotions have gone bust.

Yes yes yes... But we all have seen MMA matches start with a lad drop to his ass, not many but some high level fighters (Gracie's) have done just this.

Which Gracie did this?

Just sitting down is a pretty awful mma tactic. Pulling guard us obviously different.

And also more frequently the strategy of bringing to ground rather than set up a submission is used to avoid the danger of a good striker. As let's be honest even in ground and pound the power of a strike isn't anything like when fully issued from the legs!

Yeah, of course the power isn't the same. They aren't supposed to be though. Ground and pound is about volume. Striking with little it no return strikes, and landing with high accuracy.

I'm not sure what your point is above. If you're fighting a guy whose a better striker, but is weak on the ground. It makes perfect sense to take him out of his comfort zone.

Mellor

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Also, it's been a long while since "Gracie's" have been considered leading competitors in the world of MMA. Things have moved on since those days. Kron has made some noises about making it using Gracie Jiu jitsu, but he's a bit untested in MMA just now.

You igor akready be aware, but Kron is making his debut in two weeks.
Ironically, given the thread, he's fighting in Japan for the Chinese based "Real-Fight" promotion.