NI public transport cuts

ardmacha

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/massive-bus-cull-on-way-13-towns-to-lose-all-local-bus-services-metro-services-will-be-less-frequent-30800756.html

Armagh, Ballyclare, Ballynahinch, Banbridge, Carrickfergus, Cookstown, Downpatrick, Enniskillen, Limavady, Magherafelt, Newcastle, Newtownabbey, Omagh and Strabane will see their town bus services withdrawn

No more overnight bus services between Belfast and Dublin airport, and reduced frequency of day services

50% less stops on longer Goldliner routes

Withdrawal of some Ulsterbus links from small rural villages to larger towns

Metro services on corridors one and seven in Belfast reduced in frequency

Train services across the network will be reduced, particularly between Portadown and Newry, and between Whitehead and Larne

Additionally, there will be service reductions in Antrim, Ballymena, Bangor, Dungannon, Lurgan, Portadown and Newry.

cgcsb

Jeepers that's quite the deep cut there Mr. Cameron. I suppose it was coming. Villages the size of Ballynahinch in the Republic wouldn't have a town service.

L1011

Are Bus Eireann's 001 overnights not unsubsidised Expressway services?

end of the road

ardmacha wrote: »

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/massive-bus-cull-on-way-13-towns-to-lose-all-local-bus-services-metro-services-will-be-less-frequent-30800756.html

Armagh, Ballyclare, Ballynahinch, Banbridge, Carrickfergus, Cookstown, Downpatrick, Enniskillen, Limavady, Magherafelt, Newcastle, Newtownabbey, Omagh and Strabane will see their town bus services withdrawn

No more overnight bus services between Belfast and Dublin airport, and reduced frequency of day services

50% less stops on longer Goldliner routes

Withdrawal of some Ulsterbus links from small rural villages to larger towns

Metro services on corridors one and seven in Belfast reduced in frequency

Train services across the network will be reduced, particularly between Portadown and Newry, and between Whitehead and Larne

Additionally, there will be service reductions in Antrim, Ballymena, Bangor, Dungannon, Lurgan, Portadown and Newry.

jesus. thats a hell of a lot. was probably innevitable though. still unfortunate for those who will be effected. reducing frequency and services on the rail lines could be detrimental to the growth they have experienced, i hope they look again at them and re-consider but i won't hold my breath

munchkin_utd

my question would be what impact did giving free travel have, which is only a new-ish thing in NI?

If you look at who travels on public transport in the daytime, a lot of the (potentially fare paying) passengers would be pensioners.
And why wouldnt they be, seeing as during the day kids are in school and working people are working, leaving pensioners the afternoon with the world at their feet and otherwise empty (oh, isnt someone else paying a full fare for it) busses to themselves.

Up till recently, even at half fare, the busses would be generating some amount of cash.
But now with nearly everyone getting a free ride, you could have a situation like the trains in Mayo where theres plenty of passengers but very little cash to be seen for their custom.

The fantasy of saying that a bus is there half empty so why not let pensioners on it for free is just that, fantasy. lunacy.
Someone has to pay for it, and if the bus only has pensioners, then theres no sucker out there to cross subsidise those afternoon busses.

And who looses out when the daytime town services (in 14towns and cities in northern ireland) are pulled?
Exactly !
Pensioners !

end of the road

munchkin_utd wrote: »

the trains in Mayo where theres plenty of passengers but very little cash to be seen for their custom.

funny that, when i do head down that way they're seems to be fewer pensioners then other customers. i'm not down that way very regular admittedly, but i don't buy its as much of a situation as you make out to be honest.

bk

ardmacha wrote: »

No more overnight bus services between Belfast and Dublin airport, and reduced frequency of day services

Hmm, I always wondered how BE/Translink could operate a 24 hour service between Dublin and Belfast, but not between Dublin and any other city in Ireland.

Now I wonder if it was primarily funded by the NI government. Would explain a lot.

Either way Aircoach will be delighted.

munchkin_utd

end of the road wrote: »

funny that, when i do head down that way they're seems to be fewer pensioners then other customers. i'm not down that way very regular admittedly, but i don't buy its as much of a situation as you make out to be honest.

if its nothing to do with travel passes, it'd be interesting though to know why these services are now loss making and before they were somehow sustainable.

maybe they were always subsidised and now thats something that cant be afforded out of an ever decreasing westminster subvention, a situation possibly not helped by the cost of "free" travel passes which probably are too politically sensitive to be cut - especially with Sinn Fein in power up north and an eye on not doing something that could blow up in their face in the south.

end of the road

munchkin_utd wrote: »

if its nothing to do with travel passes, it'd be interesting though to know why these services are now loss making and before they were somehow sustainable.

maybe they were always subsidised and now thats something that cant be afforded out of an ever decreasing westminster subvention, a situation possibly not helped by the cost of "free" travel passes which probably are too politically sensitive to be cut - especially with Sinn Fein in power up north and an eye on not doing something that could blow up in their face in the south.

i genuinely don't know, it could be any of those reasons

L1011

bk wrote: »

but not between Dublin and any other city in Ireland.

Rosslare, at one point.

KCAccidental

I don't think it really has anything to do with Free Travel. Considering that Government spending across the UK is now returning to 1930s levels as a result of these cuts, this seems purely ideological.

LXFlyer

There haven't been widespread expenditure cuts in NI until now, and the government there is now facing the reality that Westminster isn't going to bail them out any more and they now have to make the hard decisions that the Irish government have been making for the last number of years.

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

There haven't been widespread expenditure cuts in NI until now, and the government there is now facing the reality that Westminster isn't going to bail them out any more and they now have to make the hard decisions that the Irish government have been making for the last number of years.

yeah. and now after all the investment by NIR and the NI government in the railway, passenger numbers will probably fall, undoing the good work done in growing it. a shame

AngryLips

bk wrote: »

Hmm, I always wondered how BE/Translink could operate a 24 hour service between Dublin and Belfast, but not between Dublin and any other city in Ireland.

Now I wonder if it was primarily funded by the NI government. Would explain a lot.

Either way Aircoach will be delighted.

I always just assumed it was because they're the two largest cities on the island

Sheldons Brain

AngryLips wrote: »

I always just assumed it was because they're the two largest cities on the island

Not only large populations involved but a relatively convenient journey from the airport.

Is it not the case that the night services on Belfast Dublin use a private operator rather than Ulsterbus vehicles? I doubt if this is anything more complex than cutting the outsourced service which is easier to remove. Likewise they are slashing road repairs, street light repairs etc as these are done by contractors.

n97 mini

These are proposed cuts. Unlikely they'll all be implemented with a headline like that.

LXFlyer

Translink operate the 23:00 and 01:00 ex-Belfast and 03:00 and 05:00 ex-Dublin.

These are probably the more lightly loaded services being honest.

BE operate the 03:00 and 05:00 ex-Belfast which would be busier with Airport traffic.

Joe Doe

bk wrote: »

Hmm, I always wondered how BE/Translink could operate a 24 hour service between Dublin and Belfast, but not between Dublin and any other city in Ireland. Now I wonder if it was primarily funded by the NI government. Would explain a lot. Either way Aircoach will be delighted.

As other mentioned 2nd largest city of around half million, as you can see from this image, most folks are on the east coast

http://darkskies4ni.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/night2012-736x576.jpg

Usually also it has pickups along the M1 at (Newry/Dundalk/Drogheda). 05:00 is fairly popular for the early international-transfer flights, many of which not served by Aldergrove.

A significant boost for Dub airport & flight taxation to have an additional 1.6 million catchment area.

Think Aircoach reduced some services along the M1, might only have the non-stop express, so it may be the taxi drivers who'll be rubbing the hands.

If north ever gets ability to drop the corp tax down to 10%, an additional maglev dual-funded train service would be quickly advised.

Subpopulus

AngryLips wrote: »

I always just assumed it was because they're the two largest cities on the island

There's actually a lot more travel between Cork and Dublin than there is between Belfast and Dublin. The Enterprise only carries about 30% of the people that the Cork-Dublin train does. The business and political links that exist between Dublin and Cork don't exist between Dublin and Belfast.

CVH24

Subpopulus wrote: »

There's actually a lot more travel between Cork and Dublin than there is between Belfast and Dublin. The Enterprise only carries about 30% of the people that the Cork-Dublin train does. The business and political links that exist between Dublin and Cork don't exist between Dublin and Belfast.

Alot of the traffic on Dublin -Belfast bus service is the airport! so i would well believe Dublin -Cork overall has more traffic!

horseburger

Joe Doe wrote: »

As other mentioned 2nd largest city of around half million, as you can see from this image, most folks are on the east coast

http://darkskies4ni.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/night2012-736x576.jpg

Usually also it has pickups along the M1 at (Newry/Dundalk/Drogheda). 05:00 is fairly popular for the early international-transfer flights, many of which not served by Aldergrove.

A significant boost for Dub airport & flight taxation to have an additional 1.6 million catchment area.

Think Aircoach reduced some services along the M1, might only have the non-stop express, so it may be the taxi drivers who'll be rubbing the hands.

If north ever gets ability to drop the corp tax down to 10%, an additional maglev dual-funded train service would be quickly advised.

The Bus Éireann Translink Ulsterbus Dublin-Belfast service stopped serving Dundalk and Drogheda on 29th May 2011.

They serve Sprucefield, Banbridge, Newry, Dublin Airport and Bus Aras.

bk

AngryLips wrote: »

I always just assumed it was because they're the two largest cities on the island

But then please explain why BE can only be bothered to run 6 buses a day between Cork and Dublin, with 6pm being the last bus in either direction!!

The population of Cork and Belfast are very close, Cork is only a very small bit lower. But Cork and Dublin actually have much closer ties then Belfast and the passengers numbers on the train to Cork are MUCH higher then to Belfast.

Aircoach seem to have no difficulty filling buses between Cork and Dublin 24 hours a day.

Joe Doe wrote: »

Think Aircoach reduced some services along the M1, might only have the non-stop express, so it may be the taxi drivers who'll be rubbing the hands.

Well I wouldn't call a bus every hour, 23 hours a day, "reduced services".

Of course, you are correct, Aircoach is an express service, but the BE/Ulsterbus X1 only serves Newry in addition nowadays.

Perhaps it would make sense for Aircoach to add Newry (and maybe even Dundalk/Drogheda) to their late night services. Traffic is light anyway at night, so it shouldn't add much extra time to the schedule.

Seems like a good opportunity for them.

Joe Doe

bk wrote: »

The population of Cork and Belfast are very close, Cork is only a very small bit lower.

Similar as in 483,418 (Belfast) vs 198,582 (Cork) you mean

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_settlements_on_the_island_of_Ireland_by_population

Whilst less than half the population of Dublin, you'd have to merge all of the other main smaller cities/towns of
{Cork 198^ + Limerick 95 + Galway 76 + Waterford 51 + Drogheda 38 + Dundalk 37} all together [495] to equate to Belfast's near half-million population.

Belfast also has Lisburn 71, N'abbey 62 and Bangor 58 populations in very close proximity. (^ '000's).

n97 mini

Dublin and Belfast are in two different economies, some would say two totally different countries (which is correct politically). I'm only guessing but I would say that's a large part of the reason why Dublin and Cork see more interactivity than Dublin and Belfast.

cgcsb

Joe Doe wrote: »

Whilst less than half the population of Dublin, you'd have to merge all of the other main smaller cities/towns of
{Cork 198^ + Limerick 95 + Galway 76 + Waterford 51 + Drogheda 38 + Dundalk 37} all together [495] to equate to Belfast's near half-million population.

Belfast also has Lisburn 71, N'abbey 62 and Bangor 58 populations in very close proximity. (^ '000's).

Belfast's population is a mere 283,000, not the half million you suggest, which is approximately the population of the wider Belfast Urban area including Lisburn et. al.

cgcsb

I'd put most Dublin-Belfast trips down as leisure travel. NI is a public sector orientated economy, therefore few business trips, especially outside the jurisdiction. By Comparison, Cork has just it's City Council and a single government department, it's economy is very much private sector orientated which usually means business trips, especially to the capital. The Rail connection to Cork is also frequent, reliable and fast (in Irish terms), so the railway snaps up almost a half of journeys between the Cities, with scope for a greater modal split if the infrastructure is improved.

bk

Joe Doe wrote: »

Similar as in 483,418 (Belfast) vs 198,582 (Cork) you mean

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_settlements_on_the_island_of_Ireland_by_population

That list is totally inaccurate, it needs to be updated!

198,582 is only Cork City, which is actually a very small area with little residential areas. It doesn't include any of the very close and very large suburbs that most people consider to be part of Cork but strictly speaking fall under the country council (e.g. Douglas, Rochestown, Glanmire, Ballincollig, etc.)

The actual size of the metropolitan area of Cork is about 400,000.

The 438,418 figure for Belfast is also it's metropolitan area (Belfast City is actually 238,000), so you aren't comparing like with like.

Yes, Belfast is larger, but only marginally.

But again this all ignores that far more people drive and take the train to Cork, compared to Belfast. Also I know that Aircoach carries far more passengers to Cork then they do on their Belfast route.

Joe Doe

bk wrote: »

That list is totally inaccurate, it needs to be updated!

Feel free to update the census compilers on your findings. It's common sense that there is only two 'significantly large' or 'dense, major population centers' on the island, its even evidence from space.

http://darkskies4ni.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/night2012-736x576.jpg

City boundary and council areas can be misleading indeed, which is why practical 'urban or city density' is perhaps more relevant than large county-city designated areas.

Again examples of population location and density on the island.

http://i62.tinypic.com/wchj89.png
http://i59.tinypic.com/wrmc7q.png

Whilst politically separate, there is still free trade and movement of people anywhere within the EU. This is only likely to grow within the future European single super state.

bk

But the fact remains more people travel between Cork and Dublin, then Belfast to Dublin.

Even if you took it at face value that the population of Cork is half of Belfast, then why would BE only half a 1/4 of the daily departures? Surely it should have at least been a half?

With the private operators (Citylink, DublinCoach, etc.) having at least 12 departures every day to much smaller cities like Limerick and Galway, there is clearly plenty of demand for it and no excuse for BE's pathetic service.

Joe Doe

Well one factor not mentioned is private vehicle transport. The M1 is a 1st class motorway full of recent bypasses and improvements, which means Belfast direct to the M50 can be done in 6th gear (cruise control) within around 2hrs.

So many folks will probably take the car and use the M50 (near the airport) if they need get to industrial/business centers (Citywest), or even use it to bypass Dublin and head elsewhere rather than the bus/train.

One factor that could bring down the EU state and cross-border transport links would be the likes of Farage and the growth of far right movement in many other nations, which could reset everything back a few decades.

loyatemu

bk wrote: »

That list is totally inaccurate, it needs to be updated!

198,582 is only Cork City, which is actually a very small area with little residential areas. It doesn't include any of the very close and very large suburbs that most people consider to be part of Cork but strictly speaking fall under the country council (e.g. Douglas, Rochestown, Glanmire, Ballincollig, etc.)

The actual size of the metropolitan area of Cork is about 400,000.

don't know about Belfast but the figures for Cork in 2011 were

City (Council area) - 119K
City & Suburbs - 198K
County - 400K

http://census.cso.ie/sapmap/

bk

Joe Doe wrote: »

Well one factor not mentioned is private vehicle transport. The M1 is a 1st class motorway full of recent bypasses and improvements, which means Belfast direct to the M50 can be done in 6th gear (cruise control) within around 2hrs.

And that makes it even more inexcusable for BE to have such terrible service. There is more demand for public transport to Cork then there is to Belfast, so BE should have been offering a vastly superior service for years, but they just couldn't be bothered.

As a side note, Cork really undersells itself.

Dublin and Belfast when they talk about themselves almost always speak in terms of the population of Belfast Metropolitan Area or the Greater Dublin Region.

Cork always seems to get talked about in terms of it's very small city area, which includes massive areas like Douglas, but rarely gets talked in terms of it's own Greater Cork Region (400,000+). Real lack of marketing here by Cork City and County Councils.

Alun

loyatemu wrote: »

http://census.cso.ie/sapmap/

Very OT but that's a fascinating site. You can drill down to 'small areas', i.e. estates and see all kinds of data on your neighbours 10 households out of the 72 houses in my estate apparently have no internet access for example!

L1011

Alun wrote: »

Very OT but that's a fascinating site. You can drill down to 'small areas', i.e. estates and see all kinds of data on your neighbours 10 households out of the 72 houses in my estate apparently have no internet access for example!

4 households in my parents estate claimed their house was built in 60s when the developement is from the 80s (14 said the 70s). Wonder how they're all enjoying their marginally dearer house insurance!]

Additionally, 1 thinks they get their water from a group scheme and 1 claims to have private sources... its all mains