German motorways without speed limits are as safe as those with limited, here's why

Daaryl

Source is a french website i stumbled upon http://www.realitesroutieres.fr/les-autoroutes-allemandes-sans-limitation-de-vitesse-sont-aussi-sures-que-celles-sans-704/

Opinions on this?

In a previous article, we cut short the ideas and were showing that nearly 2/3 of German motorways have no speed limit . But highways without speed limits they are more or less accident-prone than with speed limitation?

To answer this question it is sufficient to read the report of the Annual font available on the website DeStaSis (German equivalent of the French INSEE) latest report. The conclusion is that portitions without speed limits are less dangerous than portitions limited to 130 km / h. The severity of accidents is also.

You have to read for this page on motorways ( see table in full here ), especially the second data block (the first concerns the work areas, the second includes all areas). To the left reads the number of injury accidents ( Unfälle put Personenschaden ), with a specific column for accidents involving death ( mit Getöteten ) and in the left column, it says the number of injuries / deaths (sub- column Getötete for death). The lines distinguish limitless portions ( ohne Geschwindigkeitsbegrenzung ) portions with limit ( mit Geschwindigkeitsbegrenzung under divided into several topic according to limitation). Thus, we learn that:

The severity is higher contrast for limited portions 130 or 120 km / h (1026/188 = 1.74 for 130 km / h and 2765/1689 = 1.64; standard when there limitation no particular danger, but that there is a political will to block drivers) Portions limited to 120 or 130 km / h thus cause more severe accidents than portitions without speed limits
(gravity is here measured by the ratio [number of people injured or killed] / [number of accidents involving people])
The mortality on the portions without speed limits is similar to limited portions
Indeed, mortality accident on the free portions of 2.59% (= 306/11914)
It is 3.23% on portitions limited to 130 km / h (= 19/588)
It is 2.2% on portitions limited to 120 km / h (= 36/1689)
Explanations: the portitions reported at 120 km / h are generally portions where danger is (potentially) present. Drivers know and anticipates the danger by increasing their vigilance, resulting in less serious accidents. It is the same for portitions limited to 60 or 80 (exits, tunnels ...). However, the portions limited to 130 km / h are portions where no specific hazard exists in the context of an experimental program, intended to replace the free portions for political reasons.

This is also the conclusion of the major players in road safety as the insurer club ADAC ( read here ) or in France .

Read the report (in German, see page 89)

ironclaw

Whilst I'm an advocate of safe speed in the right environment the things that would fly in the face of here are:

Road quality, they just don't compare in my opinion. In addition to the design. Would be tough for find a road in Ireland where you could sustain 160km/h+ for any reasonably length of time and not come against a crest, dip or turn. A turn at 120 is quite different at 160 etc.

Emergency Cover, I believe on the autobahn you are never further than 15 mins from a helicopter / hospital. So the chance of death in a serious collision is reduced. That just isn't the case here.

Driver Education & Awareness, goes without saying really.

Policing, the don't mess around there and you will be pulled up for lane misuse and stuff we consider 'grand' here. That all has a huge impact on driver behavior.

Cars, I generally find the standard and age of cars on the continent is higher.

traprunner

From driving in Germany I think one major difference is that you could go 50 km or more before you hit a slip road off the motorways. This allows for greater speed as there are not as many eejits entering or leaving the motorway every 4 km like in Ireland. Most crashes in Ireland on motorways seem to happen around the slip road areas.

Victor

I think this may be a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If a section of road is deemed dangerous, of course they are going to put a speed limit on it.

traprunner wrote: »

From driving in Germany I think one major difference is that you could go 50 km or more before you hit a slip road off the motorways.

You would be hard press to find more than a few locations in Western Europe (let's call it the EU15) where you go more than 20-25 km between junctions.

There is a discussion here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=524451 but several of the long stretches mentioned do have junctions.

munchkin_utd

ironclaw wrote: »

Whilst I'm an advocate of safe speed in the right environment the things that would fly in the face of here are:

Road quality, they just don't compare in my opinion. In addition to the design. Would be tough for find a road in Ireland where you could sustain 160km/h+ for any reasonably length of time and not come against a crest, dip or turn. A turn at 120 is quite different at 160 etc.
<snip>

most of the Motorway to Cork is more than suited to 160kph and is fairly empty too so the unpredictable eejit factor is also missing - which I would also rate as being more dangerous than plain speed on the motorway.

160kph is not all that fast so you arent going to spin the car or anything, so its outside factors like pensioners driving at 50 in the overtaking lane that you only have to account for

Tigger

munchkin_utd wrote: »

most of the Motorway to Cork is more than suited to 160kph and is fairly empty too so the unpredictable eejit factor is also missing - which I would also rate as being more dangerous than plain speed on the motorway.

160kph is not all that fast so you arent going to spin the car or anything, so its outside factors like pensioners driving at 50 in the overtaking lane that you only have to account for

It's true that while the quality of cars has improved to the point where 169kph is doable the issue is that some other idiot might decide to overtake without looking and meander Into your lane at 85kph

Legislation has to cater for the lowest denominator and unfortunately for political showboating

listermint

ironclaw wrote: »

Road quality, they just don't compare in my opinion. In addition to the design. Would be tough for find a road in Ireland where you could sustain 160km/h+ for any reasonably length of time and not come against a crest, dip or turn. A turn at 120 is quite different at 160 etc.


Cars, I generally find the standard and age of cars on the continent is higher.

I disagree with both. I have driven in Germany extensively. Alot of the AutoBahn is decades old, and yes while it may be maintained the quality of the road is no better than here and alot of what i drove on around Frankfurt felt more like Highways in the US from the 60s. Thats not to say that it is badly surfaced. I just think you have a glint in your eye of german quality.

And the standard and age of vehicles varies on the continent so much that such a blanket statement is ridiculous.

Red Kev

ironclaw wrote: »

Whilst I'm an advocate of safe speed in the right environment the things that would fly in the face of here are:

Road quality, they just don't compare in my opinion. In addition to the design. Would be tough for find a road in Ireland where you could sustain 160km/h+ for any reasonably length of time and not come against a crest, dip or turn. A turn at 120 is quite different at 160 etc.

I worked in Germany for years, have done over 250,000 KM on their Autobahns and most of them are not in good condition, in my experience the newer Irish motorway surfaces are better and they tend to be wider overall. There are very few places left in Germany where it's possible to get to a sustained 200 km/h (or even 160 km/h for long periods) during the day.

traprunner wrote: »

From driving in Germany I think one major difference is that you could go 50 km or more before you hit a slip road off the motorways. This allows for greater speed as there are not as many eejits entering or leaving the motorway every 4 km like in Ireland. Most crashes in Ireland on motorways seem to happen around the slip road areas.

Nonsense. Parts of the former East Germany are sparsely populated but they would be 15-25 km between exits in the least sparsely populated areas, the majority of German AB's is 8-12 km to an exit.


The stats are thrown up every so often on the safety of unlimited AB's. What those stats tend to ignore is that the majority of serious accidents happen in densley populated areas at speeds of 60-90 km/h wher the limit is 100-120 km/h.

Bad weather such as fog and heavy rain and irresponsible driving in these conditions also have a large effect on accidents. The stats are there to prove it.

There isn't any reason to get rid of the unlimited AB's, that's why they are still there, the only changes in speed limits are due to pressure to reduce emissions especially on hot days when they can become a serious issue in certain places, but more importantly reductions are due to increased congestion, especially around major junctions.

Marcin_diy

NO to no speed limit on Irish motorways.
I've seen enough cowboys driving 80 km/h on 120 motorway on overtaking lane, who don't ive a s*** about faster car behind them.

Germans have completely different culture of driving and they know what dynamic acceleration, indicators and overtaking lines are for.

JumpShivers

A girl I go to college with who is learning to drive was told by her dad that 'you'll be fine on the motorway and don't be afraid to slow down or stop completely on the slip road because the cars already on the motorway will move into the fast lane to let you in.'

If cars were on the motorway doing 200+ an hour then this would spell disaster.

galah

In Germany, motor way driving is part of the driver education as well. While you still have muppets doing silly things, you can at least expect that most people know what they are doing on a German motorway by way of a common driver education and understanding. And the whole 'keep right unless overtaking' is drummed into you, so people doing higher speeds can do these without major issues.

Here you always expect the dumbest drivers doing the stupidest things, and are usually proven right (my personal highlight was a lady in a micra reversing on the M18 as she missed an exit. Not on the lay-by, in the left hand lane. Without hazards on or anything. :eek:)

barneystinson

Marcin_diy wrote: »

Germans have completely different culture of driving and they know what dynamic acceleration, indicators and overtaking lines are for.

Is there such a thing as acceleration that isn't dynamic?!

Zoney

You could probably have variable speed limits here in Ireland on all motorways - plenty of main motorways that can be busy enough at times (and 120 km/h is probably best) but that are near empty othertimes (not just night time) and it might be more appropriate to say have 140 km/h as a limit.

A bonus would be that you could reduce the limit to 100 km/h or even less when conditions are bad - a lot of drivers here don't account for conditions at all.

Cheensbo

JumpShivers wrote: »

A girl I go to college with who is learning to drive was told by her dad that 'you'll be fine on the motorway and don't be afraid to slow down or stop completely on the slip road because the cars already on the motorway will move into the fast lane to let you in.'

If cars were on the motorway doing 200+ an hour then this would spell disaster.

Sweet jesus :eek:

Victor

Zoney wrote: »

You could probably have variable speed limits here in Ireland on all motorways - plenty of main motorways that can be busy enough at times (and 120 km/h is probably best) but that are near empty othertimes (not just night time) and it might be more appropriate to say have 140 km/h as a limit.

A bonus would be that you could reduce the limit to 100 km/h or even less when conditions are bad - a lot of drivers here don't account for conditions at all.

So you would have variable message signs every kilometre or so? A bit expensive, no?

bryaner

JumpShivers wrote: »

A girl I go to college with who is learning to drive was told by her dad that 'you'll be fine on the motorway and don't be afraid to slow down or stop completely on the slip road because the cars already on the motorway will move into the fast lane to let you in.'

If cars were on the motorway doing 200+ an hour then this would spell disaster.

I'm getting the feeling she's not his favourite daughter!

Carawaystick

Victor wrote: »

So you would have variable message signs every kilometre or so? A bit expensive, no?

Considering how laughably incorrect the messaging on the M50 and M1 is, it would be a waste of scarce resources to put more up...

H3llR4iser

Marcin_diy wrote: »

NO to no speed limit on Irish motorways.
I've seen enough cowboys driving 80 km/h on 120 motorway on overtaking lane, who don't ive a s*** about faster car behind them.

Germans have completely different culture of driving and they know what dynamic acceleration, indicators and overtaking lines are for.

What about building a driving culture in Ireland instead then, rather than having the "ah no, can't be done here, too many idiots" approach? It will take years, maybe decades, but could and should be done. Ireland is a country completely reliant on the private car: there's no real public transport network outside of Dublin and no real railway system.

Yet, a lot of people have an appaling approach to the whole "driving" process - there's a thread on AH about people learning to drive in their 30s and even 40s, and they all go "Ah shur I don't need a license!". Up until they get that job offer from out of town.

mickdw

No Doubt driver training is needed here but that needs to be proper driver training, not the system we have now where increased paper work and costs is seem as increased training. As long as we have driver training that doesnt get out of town never mind onto a motorway, we will have a joke of a system.

Imagine a system where everyone who passed a driving test understood how to drive on a motorway and had actually driven on a motorway supervised previously.

quadrifoglio verde

In the past when I was immature (not that long ago really) I did speeds
Late at night on an empty motorway which if caught would have had me on the front of the indo, up in front of a judge and me cycling everywhere for the next ten years if lucky.
Was it dangerous...no, I knew the road was empty, I knew what speeds my car could handle and I had the suspension and brakes seriously upgraded to handle higher speeds.
would I have done these speeds of it was wet, no. Would I have done them had there been other drivers on the road, no.
Can Irish motorways handle higher speeds. Certainly yes, we just need to educate our driving population on how to drive on a ****ing motorway.
You overtake and you get back in the driving lane, you don't sit in the overtaking lane unless you're overtakkng. And I'm sorry doing 121 overtaking someone who's doing doing 120.9 is not overtaking. Put the foot down, overtake safely and get back into the driving lane.
I can't do this in Ireland unfortunately because whenever I try, I inadvertently get stuck behind some gob****e in the overtaking lane pottling along at 90.
Instead of gardai nabbing the driver for doing 130, they should be nabbing the driver hogging an overtaking lane

CiniO

I do about 1600km a year on German motorways over last 6 years.
Last time was actually few days ago, when I did 800km there. So here's for words from me in relation to the subject.

1. I consider myself as well trained driver. I work part time as professional bus driver, I have about 700,000km driven in my life without causing any accidents, and I'm fairly skilled when it comes to advanced vehicle control (skids recovering, etc) as I spend hundreds of hours training that stuff. I took part in some car rallies, and generally I feel like safe driver. But still when driving on motorway at speeds above 170 - 180km/h, even in low or none-traffic conditions, on dry clear road, I don't really feel it's 100% safe. Up to around 160km/h I'm confident enough and I'm able to drive like that for prelonged lenght of time. But f.e. at 200km/h while it's obvlisly possible, and I've done it many times even for longer period, I just need to be incredibly focused, and I still have a feeling it's just a tiny mistake or millisecond of disconcentration, and it could end up fatally. So for me generally on dry road with small traffic, 160km/h is kinda a limit of comfortable driving, above which driving becomes fun, involves good bit of adrenaline, but is not comfortable and not so safe IMO anymore.

2. Driving at high speeds cost a lot, which many people seem to forget. My car (Civic 2.2 diesel) can do about 52 MPG when driving at around 110km/h. If I increase to 120km/h then MPG goes down to about 48 - still allright IMO. But at 140km/h MPG is down again, now to about 37MPG. At 160km/h we are talking about 30MPG, and at 200km/h it's way below 20MPG. So driving at high speeds is very costly.

3. I love the way Germans drive on their Autobahn. It's nearly 100% by the book. Mirror, indicate, mirror, move left, overtake and return to right lane. Overtaking is nearly always done with reasonable speed different and doesn't take ages like it does by English drivers on their motorways. In general - Alles in Ordnung. This makes driving even at 200km/h safe enough, and I'm fairly confident that when I'm doing such speed there won't be some idiot to change lane in last moment without checking mirrors, like it happens all the time in Ireland.

4. Now even though it's alloed to drive whatever fast you want on German motorways, I see most drivers drive slowly and don't really exceed 130km/h.
I tried to do some statistics on rather quite motorway stretch (A38). I drove for 15 minutes at 130km/h on unrestricted part of motorway. During that time, I overtook 136 cars, and I was overtaken by 12 cars. No trucks on the road, as it was Sunday when trucks are banned. This gives good indication of percentage of people driving fast. We are talking about 8 percent of driver doing above 130km/h. Not that many IMO.

5. From Germany I drove to Poland and did another 500km on Polish motorways. Here percentage was even lower. Just to expalin - speed limit on Polish motorways is 140km/h, but generally drivers dont' really bother obeying speed limits in this country on most roads, so why would they do on motorways. But to my surprise, on 500km stretch, while I didn't do any statistics, I tried to stick to about 140km/h, and possibly over this 500km stretch I wasn't ovetaken by more than 10 cars all together. This again just gives indication, that fast driving is too costly for most driver, because I can't really think of any other reasons why people didn't drive faster.

To summarise, I think most motorways in Europe (including Ireland) should be restricted to about 160 - 180 km/h. Those are still reasonable travelling speed. Above that we are not talking about normal commuters, but just people who enjoy their adrenalin or want to test their car - let them do it some place else. 160 - 180km/h is reasonable speed limit for motorways, and this should apply all over EU IMO (including Germany and Ireland). I can guarantee, that amount of people travelling at such speeds would be minimal anyway.

delahuntv

ironclaw wrote: »

Emergency Cover, I believe on the autobahn you are never further than 15 mins from a helicopter / hospital. So the chance of death in a serious collision is reduced. That just isn't the case here.

The pub saying goes that when there is a crash on a german autobahn they attend with shovels, black bags and brushes - not ambulances!

CiniO

delahuntv wrote: »

The pub saying goes that when there is a crash on a german autobahn they attend with shovels, black bags and brushes - not ambulances!

But that's luckily only pub saying

CiniO

delahuntv wrote: »

The pub saying goes that when there is a crash on a german autobahn they attend with shovels, black bags and brushes - not ambulances!

But that's luckily only pub saying