legitimate complaint/query about failed test?

confusedmuch

So, a simple question, but maybe not the easiest to explain! Did my test in Raheny today, and unfortunately I failed. However once I got back into the test center with the tester, I asked him for the details of why I failed. Heres a breakdown...

I received a total of 11 grade-2 faults (9 or more equal a fail). These were..
3 for overtaking/clearing parked vehicles insufficiently
1 for insufficient reaction to a hazard
1 for overtaking an “object” insufficiently
2 for insufficient right-turns
4 for clutch control

As for the 3 mistakes I made with regard overtaking/clearing parked vehicles, well I suppose thats very subjective. Plus or minus 6 inches could mean the difference between safe and unsafe depending on any individual, its quite arbitrary considering you are often snaking in and out of parked vehicles on narrow streets (which in itself is a problem!). I don’t have a problem with those observations, especially seeing as I cant remember what they were/might have been.

As for the reaction to a hazard, that was not mentioned by the tester, so I cant say anything further about it.

Where I do have a problem/questions is with the remainder of the grade-2’s.

Insufficient overtaking/clearance of an “object”:..............
The object in question was one of those small yellow cones that are used to prevent people parking, they’re maybe 8-10 inches high. There were perhaps 10 to 15 of these cones on my side of the road, placed directly at the edge of the kerb (on the road), and they were spread over a distance of perhaps 2 blocks of houses. At the same time, there were 3 separate speed bumps going over the same distance, the kind that are raised in two humps in each lane, the ones where you can drive a little to the left or right to avoid them, your wheels going to each side of a hump (not explaining this very well, hope its understandable!).

Anyway...In order to avoid potential marks against me for going over bumps (and also to demonstrate some better control I suppose), I was told by two separate instructors that I should try to “go around” these bumps when it is convenient/not causing an obstruction etc, and to do so on the left, so as not to end up crossing over into the other lane. Thats fine.

I noted the little yellow cones, and decided it was fine to still drive slightly closer to the kerb on my side of the road, in order to avoid the ramp. I did so, all good.

When I get back to the test center and asked the tester about the “clearing an object” fault he had given me, he said...and I quote, as best as I can remember...”you drove too near to the traffic cone. Those things are actually very hard and could cause damage to your car”. I think this might be excessive. Not to make a joke of it, but could the same thing not be said about the kerb itself? Or even a wall??

4 grade-2s for clutch control:...............
When I heard this initially, I was quite surprised, as I have no problems with my clutch control at all, and both my instructors never mentioned anything about it. The tester told me this...and again, I quote as best I can remember...”You were coasting on the clutch. When you were coming into t-junctions you were keeping your foot on the clutch while moving slowly into the junction. If you meet oncoming traffic, youre going too slowly to do anything about it, and its already too late”

Now this might sound fine, but let me explain it a bit more. The t-junctions referred to were in those little roads with lots of parked cars. I was told time and time again by instructors that if I am approaching a t-junction of that sort, and I cannot see adequately for approaching traffic, I should stop/slow down and creep forward slowly until I CAN see that the way is clear, then proceed. Now what puzzles me about this is....how am I supposed to creep forward to get an adequate view, WITHOUT being heavy on the clutch?? Plus, isn’t it better that I am on the clutch already so as to move off quickly once the way is clear? Perhaps to put it in better perspective, I was “coasting” for a matter of maybe 3 or 4 feet, albeit slowly.

Lastly, I received a grade-2 for taking a right turn. To explain more fully, I was travelling at around 35 kph in the right-hand lane of two lanes. Tester told me to take the next right turn. Not far ahead was the separate additional lane for cars wishing to turn right. I do my manoeuvres correctly, and I looked over my shoulder on the right side to check my blindspot before changing lanes.

Afterwords, the tester told me that “You shouldn’t have looked over your shoulder. Thats what your mirrors are for. If you are travelling at any speed, the time it takes you to glance over your shoulder is enough time for something bad to happen in front of you”.

Now correct me if Im wrong, but I was pretty sure that its standard practice to check your blindspot before changing lanes, right? Or is there some strange little rule for those particular lanes that are used only for turning right?? Or if youre going fast, maybe?


SOOOOOOOO......Im definitely going to ask the two instructors I had about these queries to see what they think, especially seeing as they never highlighted any of those things before. I had a total of 12 hours of lessons by the way, and about 3 months solid driving experience (not lots, I know, but not terrible either).

So my overall question is this..... considering I would have passed if these things weren’t held against me, do I have any legitimate reason to be unhappy with this? Would there even be grounds for a complaint?

If it wasnt for the fact that I have to pay for this test again I wouldn’t mind so much, but at 85 quid a pop, I feel I have the right to at least question these things. Anyway, after this wall of text, any opinions or advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks

Lockstep

confusedmuch wrote: »

Lastly, I received a grade-2 for taking a right turn. To explain more fully, I was travelling at around 35 kph in the right-hand lane of two lanes. Tester told me to take the next right turn. Not far ahead was the separate additional lane for cars wishing to turn right. I do my manoeuvres correctly, and I looked over my shoulder on the right side to check my blindspot before changing lanes.

Afterwords, the tester told me that “You shouldn’t have looked over your shoulder. Thats what your mirrors are for. If you are travelling at any speed, the time it takes you to glance over your shoulder is enough time for something bad to happen in front of you”.

Now correct me if Im wrong, but I was pretty sure that its standard practice to check your blindspot before changing lanes, right? Or is there some strange little rule for those particular lanes that are used only for turning right?? Or if youre going fast, maybe?

Just going by what my own instructor says but you're only meant to look over your shoulder when moving off. When driving you're only meant to use your mirrors as looking over your shoulder takes your eye off the road too long.

Alanstrainor

Don't bother with the complaint, it will not change the fail to a pass, the only possible outcome you can expect is a retest. Now, given the price of the test, this isn't a bad result. But given what you've said it sounds like there was nothing extreme in the decisions of this examiner. So I would think it very unlikely that you will succeed in a complaint.

The confusion over the cone/speed bump seems needless, keep a distance from the object would be the priority, and the speed bump would come second. As for the clutch control marks, very difficult to comment really, but if you are going slow enough you can use first gear to allow for a slow crawl without clutching in the entire time.

Your best bet is to do the test again as soon as possible. By the sounds of it, you are ready, and perhaps with a bit more luck and focus on clutch control you'll pass without issue!

Craftylee

As above - you should glance over towards your ear when checking the blind spot when moving. Only when stationary should you do the full over the shoulder check.

I mean from reading your post, if it was me personally doing the test i would go over the speed bump normally and not try to avoid it, keep a good road position. Regarding the clutch I mean we can't comment if you were excessively coasting as we weren't there, but from what you were saying you need to "peep-and-creep" until you can see safely before you pull out. Were you rolling the car out with the clutch down? Or were you slowly pulling out using the clutch? Seems strange

confusedmuch

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Don't bother with the complaint, it will not change the fail to a pass, the only possible outcome you can expect is a retest. Now, given the price of the test, this isn't a bad result. But given what you've said it sounds like there was nothing extreme in the decisions of this examiner. So I would think it very unlikely that you will succeed in a complaint.

The confusion over the cone/speed bump seems needless, keep a distance from the object would be the priority, and the speed bump would come second. As for the clutch control marks, very difficult to comment really, but if you are going slow enough you can use first gear to allow for a slow crawl without clutching in the entire time.

Your best bet is to do the test again as soon as possible. By the sounds of it, you are ready, and perhaps with a bit more luck and focus on clutch control you'll pass without issue!

Thanks for the input. Yeah, I agree that making any sort of complaint will probably go nowhere. At the end of the day its my word versus the testers, and my interpretation versus his interpretation.

I agree about the speedbump being secondary. At the time however, it really did seem like an okay thing to do. And if the tester hadn't mentioned it, I would do the same thing again. I still think his decision on that was quite harsh though, what can you do?!

As for the clutch, I know its very difficult to judge anything without having being there. That said, when I move out into these small, obstructed-view t-junctions, I go so slowly that to do so in first gear would probably cut the engine out. I think this is a safe way to do it, as you can literally stop within an inch IF a car comes plummeting towards you from the right. If I were to follow the logic of the tester, im better off moving more quickly even if im not sure if the way is clear, cos....I don't get it!

My agitation with failing is that I am basically none the wiser, I haven't exactly learned anything significant. But yeah, will put in for the test again in January and give another toss of the coin :P

confusedmuch

Craftylee wrote: »

As above - you should glance over towards your ear when checking the blind spot when moving. Only when stationary should you do the full over the shoulder check.

I mean from reading your post, if it was me personally doing the test i would go over the speed bump normally and not try to avoid it, keep a good road position. Regarding the clutch I mean we can't comment if you were excessively coasting as we weren't there, but from what you were saying you need to "peep-and-creep" until you can see safely before you pull out. Were you rolling the car out with the clutch down? Or were you slowly pulling out using the clutch? Seems strange

Thanks for the reply. That's an interesting thing you mention about glancing towards your ear, first time I heard of it. But would that have been too much for my tester too? I suppose when youre getting into such finicky detail, the only way around it is to have something like a more advanced version of the drivers handbook, something that goes into much more detail. I don't mind doing a test and putting the work and effort into something. But I DO mind when there seems to be such a huge amount of room for personal interpretation, what you and 20 other people think is correct, another 20 people think is incorrect. Head melting!

As for the clutch thing, basically I use the clutch and brake to inch forward slowly. Again, the frustration is that I got marked for doing this four times, when all along im there thinking im doing the perfect thing! Ah well

Craftylee

Yeah so quick glance out your drivers window - should be very quick, if you look at the tip of your shoulder that's about right. On my first test I kept looking in my rear view mirror as I was driving along (thinking they would like that) I got destroyed marks wise by the tester on it. But certain testers dislike certain traits and pick up on them more than others.

In regards to edging out of a junction, yeah you should be in first and use the clutch + gas to slowly edge out. Once you have a good view either stop if it's not clear or go if it is.

J_R

Hi OP

Re coasting, the examiner said ?

.”You were coasting on the clutch. When you were coming into t-junctions you were keeping your foot on the clutch while moving slowly into the junction. If you meet oncoming traffic, youre going too slowly to do anything about it, and its already too late”

So perhaps you were marked for coasting into the junctions not emerging out.

The only way to emerge safely from a junction with limited visibility is as you described and did . Bit of gas and use clutch control to inch forward. (Also perhaps you kept inching when it was safe to go ?)

But only person that should know and explain is your instructor. But he should really have spotted what you were doing wrong before the test.

cerastes

confusedmuch wrote: »

Where I do have a problem/questions is with the remainder of the grade-2’s.

Insufficient overtaking/clearance of an “object”:..............
The object in question was one of those small yellow cones that are used to prevent people parking, they’re maybe 8-10 inches high. There were perhaps 10 to 15 of these cones on my side of the road, placed directly at the edge of the kerb (on the road), and they were spread over a distance of perhaps 2 blocks of houses. At the same time, there were 3 separate speed bumps going over the same distance, the kind that are raised in two humps in each lane, the ones where you can drive a little to the left or right to avoid them, your wheels going to each side of a hump (not explaining this very well, hope its understandable!).

Anyway...In order to avoid potential marks against me for going over bumps (and also to demonstrate some better control I suppose), I was told by two separate instructors that I should try to “go around” these bumps when it is convenient/not causing an obstruction etc, and to do so on the left, so as not to end up crossing over into the other lane. Thats fine.

I noted the little yellow cones, and decided it was fine to still drive slightly closer to the kerb on my side of the road, in order to avoid the ramp. I did so, all good.

When I get back to the test center and asked the tester about the “clearing an object” fault he had given me, he said...and I quote, as best as I can remember...”you drove too near to the traffic cone. Those things are actually very hard and could cause damage to your car”. I think this might be excessive. Not to make a joke of it, but could the same thing not be said about the kerb itself? Or even a wall??

4 grade-2s for clutch control:...............
When I heard this initially, I was quite surprised, as I have no problems with my clutch control at all, and both my instructors never mentioned anything about it. The tester told me this...and again, I quote as best I can remember...”You were coasting on the clutch. When you were coming into t-junctions you were keeping your foot on the clutch while moving slowly into the junction. If you meet oncoming traffic, youre going too slowly to do anything about it, and its already too late”

Now this might sound fine, but let me explain it a bit more. The t-junctions referred to were in those little roads with lots of parked cars. I was told time and time again by instructors that if I am approaching a t-junction of that sort, and I cannot see adequately for approaching traffic, I should stop/slow down and creep forward slowly until I CAN see that the way is clear, then proceed. Now what puzzles me about this is....how am I supposed to creep forward to get an adequate view, WITHOUT being heavy on the clutch?? Plus, isn’t it better that I am on the clutch already so as to move off quickly once the way is clear? Perhaps to put it in better perspective, I was “coasting” for a matter of maybe 3 or 4 feet, albeit slowly.

Lastly, I received a grade-2 for taking a right turn. To explain more fully, I was travelling at around 35 kph in the right-hand lane of two lanes. Tester told me to take the next right turn. Not far ahead was the separate additional lane for cars wishing to turn right. I do my manoeuvres correctly, and I looked over my shoulder on the right side to check my blindspot before changing lanes.

Afterwords, the tester told me that “You shouldn’t have looked over your shoulder. Thats what your mirrors are for. If you are travelling at any speed, the time it takes you to glance over your shoulder is enough time for something bad to happen in front of you”.

Now correct me if Im wrong, but I was pretty sure that its standard practice to check your blindspot before changing lanes, right? Or is there some strange little rule for those particular lanes that are used only for turning right?? Or if youre going fast, maybe?

So my overall question is this..... considering I would have passed if these things weren’t held against me, do I have any legitimate reason to be unhappy with this? Would there even be grounds for a complaint?

If it wasnt for the fact that I have to pay for this test again I wouldn’t mind so much, but at 85 quid a pop, I feel I have the right to at least question these things. Anyway, after this wall of text, any opinions or advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks

From what you've said, I dont think you have a legitimate complaint.
Considering you would have passed if they weren't held against you? but they were because you did them.
In particular the speed ramps, I dont think people should be swerving around the road, maybe you werent doing it in a fast or haphazard way, but if I can envision what you are describing, Id have just driven slowly over the ramps, I think the advice to avoid them is poor unless the spacing/layout of them on the road permits it easily without much movement. I think the testers reasoning isnt great, I'd have thought it should be more along the lines of if you were slowing to contend with the ramps and decided to move position on the road to avoid them, then you might be swerving towards a cyclist who may be moving up behind you or a pedestrian at the kerb where you might end up mounting it, the cyclist might be in your blind spot and it might be difficult to see them and subsequently end up hitting them.

As for the blindspot, I wouldnt look over my shoulder, while driving as such, maybe a max almost to my shoulder where I can then glance with my eyes to see further. I think the tester was right on both accounts, except for the reason on the first one here.

I dont think you should have passed having done those things in a test as thats what the test is for, if you will do them in a test, what will you do after it? I think some driving instructers seem to give poor advice or that it doesnt match with certain testers, but suggesting to avoid ramps by steering around them doesnt sound like a practice to be recommended.

You didnt pass because they were held against you, which seems correct to me. Cant say about the coasting as its not certain when it was happening from what you said. Maybe it was on the approach?

You seem to think you should have passed saying you would have passed except these things were held against you, but not recognising that they arent good practice.