Farming advice

RoboRat

If anybody can give me their input it would be most appreciated.

My wife's parents are farmers, they are nearing the age of retirement and they have asked would I like to take the farm over in a few years. I have no experience bar for the help I have given, but my father-in-law thinks I will do an excellent job as he thinks I have a great work ethic.

I work in marketing at the moment and have done so for the last 14 years but I have no problem with manual jobs, before I went to college I worked as a mechanic and liked it (just wasn't able to work with my own father). Being honest, the idea of working outdoors would appeal to me and I am a hard worker but I have no idea about farming. He has told me that he will work with me and ease me in but I wanted to get an outside perspective on it.

My father-in-law farms beef and I would say the farm is about 80 acres. I know that he gets by with his farm but I would like to keep my foot in the door of marketing and perhaps work as a consultant but not sure if this is feasible.

Has anybody gone into farming later in life (I'm 37 now) and if so, what have your experiences been?

simx

RoboRat wrote: »

If anybody can give me their input it would be most appreciated.

My wife's parents are farmers, they are nearing the age of retirement and they have asked would I like to take the farm over in a few years. I have no experience bar for the help I have given, but my father-in-law thinks I will do an excellent job as he thinks I have a great work ethic.

I work in marketing at the moment and have done so for the last 14 years but I have no problem with manual jobs, before I went to college I worked as a mechanic and liked it (just wasn't able to work with my own father). Being honest, the idea of working outdoors would appeal to me and I am a hard worker but I have no idea about farming. He has told me that he will work with me and ease me in but I wanted to get an outside perspective on it.

My father-in-law farms beef and I would say the farm is about 80 acres. I know that he gets by with his farm but I would like to keep my foot in the door of marketing and perhaps work as a consultant but not sure if this is feasible.

Has anybody gone into farming later in life (I'm 37 now) and if so, what have your experiences been?

if your FIL thinks your up to it, you must be, id take it as a compliment that he wants you to farm it, and he said hell help out if your stuck, thats a huge bonus, in what way does he farm beef? sucklers? store to finish?

Dawggone

Stick to the job and rent/sell the farm.

epfff

Dawggone wrote: »

Stick to the job and rent/sell the farm.

80acres of beef well set up your a good farmer to be able to pull 15k a year plus postman and I have bad vibe about postman after 2019 but if you have eneougt capital and drive go for it

Mad4simmental

Grab the bull by the horns and go for it if you think you can. Contract rearing might be the way for you to go for a few years.

Dawggone

The way things are going 80 acres will be like a large garden in 20 years time.

frazzledhome

Dawggone wrote: »

The way things are going 80 acres will be like a large garden in 20 years time.

Now there's fighting talk. I'm getting Pringles and beer for this:)

Timmaay

What is your relationship like with the FIL? As well as him giving a helping hand you can be sure he'll have a casting eye over everything, and any friction between the two of yous can quickly become a serious problem. You really need to bash out a few terms and conditions before you jump in, then also ask questions like how much control you will have, your plans for the farm, investments, targets etc etc, lay down as much as you can to him and get his opinion on it all. Are you planning on forming a partnership with him? Even if you aren't it's well worth looking at the partnership documents on the teagasc (or is it the department) website, they give you a great idea of the questions you should be asking.

Dawggone

frazzledhome wrote: »

Now there's fighting talk. I'm getting Pringles and beer for this:)

Ah heck, you know well that about the truth of it!

Bullocks

Dawggone wrote: »

The way things are going 80 acres will be like a large garden in 20 years time.

The lad with a large garden today is still better off than the the lad without .
Now you're right that it won't make him a fortune but if set up to be ran easily it could still turn him a few bob and might be a spring board into farming for one of his kids later on if they are interested .
I wouldn't give up the day job either but more focus on trying to get it running efficiently

orm0nd

Dawggone wrote: »

The way things are going 80 acres will be like a large garden in 20 years time.

listening to that sh1te since we joined the eu in 1973

@ op go for it, it is quite feasible to hold your own career and work the farm as a beef (or other ) enterprise as well

I'm sure you FIL has you well sized up at this stage & is confident you will make a go out it.

Miname

i love hearing stories like these. The money isnt everything, your fil is giving you what he built up over the years and you cant expect it to be just plain sailing for him to abandon all his methods and quirks in an instance. it is however an opportunity for a great way of life. i cant see him just letting you change over to contract rearing or anything but give it a go and accept it for what it is.

Count Mondego

Go for it. Part time farming is mighty, especially if you have a good job on the side. TBH, I'd have gone cracked if I stayed at home fully time with the auld lad when I was younger. Long term goal is 3 day week and farming. Not a million miles off. Looking forward to rearing kids on farm.

Dawggone

orm0nd wrote: »

listening to that sh1te since we joined the eu in 1973

@ op go for it, it is quite feasible to hold your own career and work the farm as a beef (or other ) enterprise as well

I'm sure you FIL has you well sized up at this stage & is confident you will make a go out it.

With all due respect ormond where is the capacity to create wealth?
You would advise someone to take on circa one million of assets for a return of about €20k pa and all that extra work. Remember he already has a job.

If it was me I would sell it and invest the money. Paying off his mortgage as well...

Milked out

Dawggone wrote: »

With all due respect ormond where is the capacity to create wealth?
You would advise someone to take on circa one million of assets for a return of about €20k pa and all that extra work. Remember he already has a job.

If it was me I would sell it and invest the money. Paying off his mortgage as well...

Financially speaking you are dead on but the family and personal aspect of this could be greater at this point in time. The fil appears to be fit and well so could reduce the work burden and advise for general management and when the op has taken over renting or what ever could be an option in consultation with the in laws particularly if they are living on the land.
OP it is an opportunity however explain to the fil that you wish to keep working so efficency in operation will have to be the order of the day

Dawggone

Milked out wrote: »

Financially speaking you are dead on but the family and personal aspect of this could be greater at this point in time. The fil appears to be fit and well so could reduce the work burden and advise for general management and when the op has taken over renting or what ever could be an option in consultation with the in laws particularly if they are living on the land.
OP it is an opportunity however explain to the fil that you wish to keep working so efficency in operation will have to be the order of the day

Sure there is a hell of a lot more to it than the pure financials.
The outlaws are getting on in years...they may need special care later on, or nursing homes etc.
The last time I enquired a nursing home was a grand a week. Eighty acres won't pay for that...

Milked out

Dawggone wrote: »

Sure there is a hell of a lot more to it than the pure financials.
The outlaws are getting on in years...they may need special care later on, or nursing homes etc.
The last time I enquired a nursing home was a grand a week. Eighty acres won't pay for that...

Well that's going to have to be part of the conversation as well I guess

RoboRat

Thanks for the feedback, its very much appreciated. Just to put it all into perspective... at the moment I have a good job but I always planned on going into consultancy. If I was willing I could pull in 6 figures in Dublin but I am not interested in spending my life commuting and working at the expense of my family - my family will always come before money. I love the outdoors and I like to work for myself so that is why I am interested.

I have another venture which is less than a year old, I design and import Martial Arts gear and its going quite well so I am thinking if this continues to progress it could be an excellent second job as its not that time consuming.

I have a very good relationship with the FIR, he respects me because he has seen that I put 100% into everything I do and am not scared of hard work, I just knuckle down and do it. I also pick things up quickly and he thinks that I could make a good stab at it.

My thoughts were going down the line of buying beef in the spring and selling in the autumn. I know that he has said that the real hardship is the winter months. He has a great set up to cater for winter but he has always said that he would love to cut out the winter months. He is quite old school but not adverse to change. He has a lot of fields that I could use for silage too so that could be an earner or another option is to plant a field with pine trees to sell at Christmas.

The other idea is to set up for premium beef with a smaller herd as I feel there will be a demand for this (if not already). I was also thinking of setting aside a portion of the farm for an orchard and making unique organic cider, there are a few outhouses that could easily be set up as such and I have the experience to make that side work - if I was to go down that route I would think about taking in pigs as I could feed them the excess apples/ remnants as apple fed pigs are supposed to make great bacon.

This is all just my ideas as I have only had 2 days thinking about this so if my ideas are far fetched, its because I don't really have a clue! I know that I cant do everything but I would need to sit down and work out what offers the best ROI and work with that.

Once again, all your replies are really appreciated :-)

Username John

RoboRat wrote: »

If anybody can give me their input it would be most appreciated.

My wife's parents are farmers, they are nearing the age of retirement and they have asked would I like to take the farm over in a few years. I have no experience bar for the help I have given, but my father-in-law thinks I will do an excellent job as he thinks I have a great work ethic.

I work in marketing at the moment and have done so for the last 14 years but I have no problem with manual jobs, before I went to college I worked as a mechanic and liked it (just wasn't able to work with my own father). Being honest, the idea of working outdoors would appeal to me and I am a hard worker but I have no idea about farming. He has told me that he will work with me and ease me in but I wanted to get an outside perspective on it.

My father-in-law farms beef and I would say the farm is about 80 acres. I know that he gets by with his farm but I would like to keep my foot in the door of marketing and perhaps work as a consultant but not sure if this is feasible.

Has anybody gone into farming later in life (I'm 37 now) and if so, what have your experiences been?

When you say take-over - what does this mean? Does it mean rent the land from your FIL? If so - I would advice against it, I am not a beef farmer, but I think the returns are poor, and you could run at a loss if you had to pay for rent.

If it was the case, that your FIL doesn't want rent money from you - does your FIL have an additional income stream, or is he expecting a return on the profits? (again, not sure how much there would be here?)

When you say your FIL "gets by" - it could be the case that the expected return / amount he can live on would be far less than you would need, young family, mortgage, etc... So you'd need to have eyes wide open re the accounts...

I would agree with both sides posted here
- A farm is a great place for kids to grow up
- If part-time, you will often find yourself torn between full-time job / farming / family (and in there could be your FIL looking over your shoulder too a little?)
- Farming isn't the most profitable job in the world - everyone needs to have the same expectations, that you might be gone for x hours a day, but see much financial return for it.

Would the best solution be to rent out some of it - say 50 / 60 acres. You could get around 10k or so I would guess?
You could work out with your FIL as to who should get this - but I would say your FIL should.

You, along with help from your FIL farm the remaining 20 / 30 acres.
Keep the full time job.
Stick with the beef, try to be as efficient as possible, but don't be dependant on it as a major income source.

This way
- there is a guaranteed income from the part let out
- you are getting the 'lifestyle' benefits, your kids will grow up on a farm
- you will be working with your FIL, which I am sure he would like, as he suggested it
- you would be under less pressure (marginally) time-wise, to fit in with the full-time job

Now - having said all that, it may not be so easy to do, as sometimes the older generation see letting land as a very bad thing...

RoboRat

Thanks John for your comprehensive reply.

He is looking to give the farm to me and my wife to run and we build them a house down the road. He has a pension and so does his wife and some savings so they are happy to live on that. I would obviously offer them some money annually if I was doing well but its not expected.

I understand that farming isn't the most profitable job, money is a means to an end for me. I turned down an 84k job in Dublin in favour of a 40k job in Kildare as I want to spend time with my family and not be a weekend dad. I look at how much my wife loved growing up on the farm versus my life in a housing estate and I want the same for my kids. I also suffered a bad bout of depression due to work stress in my last job and I promised that I would never let that happen again. I am ambitious and have drive and my FIR thinks that I could make it successful. My wife is also a teacher so there is a decent second income so would not be solely dependant on mine.

The options that he has at present is to (a) rent the farm out but he feels that if somebody came in they could destroy the land and it would be worthless. The land needs to be cared for and if somebody came in with a large tractor they could ruin it. Their house is also on the only access road to the farm so they would have to move out and that in itself is a distress to them.

(b) Selling the farm is another option but again, they would have to move and its been in his family for generations.

(c) rent it to forestry but once you do that, as far as I know it cant be taken back. Thats not to mention the damage to the lane with large trucks coming and going.

He has said that he is not adverse to renting it but he doesn't want to do it. He is not the confrontational sort so he doesn't want to be a landlord. I on the other hand have no issues with it so he would be looking for me to manage it. This would include the upkeep of the lane etc and making sure its being well kept.

Muckit

You seem to have your head well screwed on OP. Sometimes the best people to make a go of a small farm are 'blow ins', that is, those not from the area or a farming background.

You have a lot of alternative ideas that others here may scoff, and for good reason. Success in the artisan food and drink industry is hard won, the odds will be stacked against you. But this is not to say that it could be a roaring success.

What you are proposing will be a far cry from the financial stability of a the high paid job in the big smoke. But I think your priorities and outlook are correct and right when you say that your own health and the health and happiness of your family comes first.

You obviously have a background in the martial art lark. You know how viable this venture could be. I would presume the majority of sales would be through an online site? If so the location of your 'warehouse' is not of major importance and could quite easily be an existing renovated shed on the farm. It would allow you to do your few bits on the farm in between busy times with the business.

The Fil moving off farm is the least messy option so long as it makes sense financially. I would not recommend committing to building them a house or indeed building a house for yourself as property all over the country is selling for significantly less than building cost without any of the headaches. You could sign up for replacing 'like for like', ie buying them a house of a similar standard. You will also presumably have money to spend on the FILs present house to bring it up to modern standards for yourselves. Ie insulation, windows, decoration etc.

You may also consider the option to buy a house for yourselves near enough the farm and the fil to continue to live in his own house but that it is written into the transfer that the house passes to ye on his death.

Has your wife any siblings? For that size of a farm l wouldn't be commiting to any more than what they wull be providing for them. Ie if the fil/mil have health care needs tgey are looked after equally by all siblings. In a way you are doing your fil a favour unless he wants to see the farm sold.

You have a family and your iwn financial commitments which must continue to be met. Don't get emotionally pulled into feeling you have to meet everyone's needs and demands as it will not be possible.

The farm at best will be a hobby that is a little better than golf, in that if ran right should 'wash it's own face.' You will be putting your own sanity and health in jeopardy trying to make any more of it.

You should also run the stats over with your accountant the next time you are talking to him. He will be able to advise you on your tax liabilities on the transfer itself. It can be very costly, which could make it a deal breaker from the start, so suss it out is all l'll say.

The best of good luck to you.

Brass Tag

epfff wrote: »

80acres of beef well set up your a good farmer to be able to pull 15k a year plus postman and I have bad vibe about postman after 2019 but if you have eneougt capital and drive go for it

If 80 acres makes €15k outside of direct payments then what the f uck was all that fuss outside the factory gates a few weeks ago!

Farmer Pudsey

Dawggone wrote: »

The way things are going 80 acres will be like a large garden in 20 years time.

20 years is a long time. In 20 years time OP kids will be through or going through college and starting out there own lives. My Mother always said sell only the milk and eggs. It was an old statement meaning keeping the land at all costs. I seldom see those that sell or rent doing better than those that hold and invest.

So you sell the farm and get 800K. Micheal Noonan says thanks you very much I take a few hundred ''K'' and you can keep the rest. Where do you invest that will give a return any better than farming. Interest rates are at an all time low and 10 year Post Office bonds are returning 25% or a little over 2%/year. Plant it in forrestry and it is devalued by 5K/acre. Investments in stocks go up as well as down. Buy a few houses neither risk or work free either.

A viable farm like that will more than wash it face. Yes long term SFP is going to be flat rated ( maybe sooner than a lot of people think). But on the other hand beef prices are going up to compensate for it.

Op you and your wife have good jobs. Even ran as a standard farm without taking on work involved in building up an artisan brand(remember we export 90% of the food we produce therefore branding is hard done in Ireland) this is a viable buisness.

epfff

Brass Tag wrote: »

If 80 acres makes €15k outside of direct payments then what the f uck was all that fuss outside the factory gates a few weeks ago!

Sorry got ate and started a roit here before with a smaller figure

Shhhh dont mention the war

Dawggone

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

20 years is a long time. In 20 years time OP kids will be through or going through college and starting out there own lives. My Mother always said sell only the milk and eggs. It was an old statement meaning keeping the land at all costs. I seldom see those that sell or rent doing better than those that hold and invest.

So you sell the farm and get 800K. Micheal Noonan says thanks you very much I take a few hundred ''K'' and you can keep the rest. Where do you invest that will give a return any better than farming. Interest rates are at an all time low and 10 year Post Office bonds are returning 25% or a little over 2%/year. Plant it in forrestry and it is devalued by 5K/acre. Investments in stocks go up as well as down. Buy a few houses neither risk or work free either.

A viable farm like that will more than wash it face. Yes long term SFP is going to be flat rated ( maybe sooner than a lot of people think). But on the other hand beef prices are going up to compensate for it.

Op you and your wife have good jobs. Even ran as a standard farm without taking on work involved in building up an artisan brand(remember we export 90% of the food we produce therefore branding is hard done in Ireland) this is a viable buisness.

Fair enough Pudsey.
I've heard enough of "the land will always look after you" type Bull McCabe shyte to do me a lifetime.

You speak a very precise economic language when discussing agriculture. Maybe practicing and preaching should come together somewhat?
Emotion should NOT be included in any business examination.

For a man that is quite assertive about figures you become terribly emotive and sentimental about land. It's the feckin curse of the Irish!:)

Edit. Just an observation...

Farmer Pudsey

Dawggone wrote: »

Fair enough Pudsey.
I've heard enough of "the land will always look after you" type Bull McCabe shyte to do me a lifetime.

You speak a very precise economic language when discussing agriculture. Maybe practicing and preaching should come together somewhat?
Emotion should NOT be included in any business examination.

For a man that is quite assertive about figures you become terribly emotive and sentimental about land. It's the feckin curse of the Irish!:)

Edit. Just an observation...

Don't think I am emotive about land. It has huge tax advantages. You proposed that he sell it and pay off his mortgage. Can never understand lads facination in paying off mortgages it amoung the cheapest money you will borrow in your life.

Most full time farmers cannot understand the cost of tax. To a PAYE worker that pays 52% on all income over 33K and maybe has a transport cost of 100/week to get to work the ability to shelter cost within farming income is a huge bonus.

Tell me where OP would get a better return on his money with low risk attached than in farming. Say on this farm he operates on an average 5 year margin of 200/head on 100 cattle, has an average SFP of 10K/anum over next 5 years and generates another 2-3K between GLAS and other farm schemes. It sounds like his FIL farm needs a little minding so may not be top class land. Maybe with a value of 8-9K/acre. That would give it a value of 700K

That is a yield of 4.5% before capital appreciation in land value. Over last 10 years had land increase in vale by 5%/year. I say that would be a fair figure. So his projected return could be 10%/year. That is in a low risk enviorment.

Just a different observation thinking outside the box

Dawggone

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Don't think I am emotive about land. It has huge tax advantages. You proposed that he sell it and pay off his mortgage. Can never understand lads facination in paying off mortgages it amoung the cheapest money you will borrow in your life.

Most full time farmers cannot understand the cost of tax. To a PAYE worker that pays 52% on all income over 33K and maybe has a transport cost of 100/week to get to work the ability to shelter cost within farming income is a huge bonus.

Tell me where OP would get a better return on his money with low risk attached than in farming. Say on this farm he operates on an average 5 year margin of 200/head on 100 cattle, has an average SFP of 10K/anum over next 5 years and generates another 2-3K between GLAS and other farm schemes. It sounds like his FIL farm needs a little minding so may not be top class land. Maybe with a value of 8-9K/acre. That would give it a value of 700K

That is a yield of 4.5% before capital appreciation in land value. Over last 10 years had land increase in vale by 5%/year. I say that would be a fair figure. So his projected return could be 10%/year. That is in a low risk enviorment.

Just a different observation thinking outside the box

Jeez Pudsey you're a hard nut to crack. Reply demain matin.

freedominacup

Dawggone wrote: »

Jeez Pudsey you're a hard nut to crack. Reply demain matin.

He's not really, you should try con some time. You could sand blast him for the day and you still couldn't turn your back on what was left.

onyerbikepat

You have to laugh at the different replies on here. The dairy guys say you should rent or sell up. Most of them are trying to expand - so that explains that. Guys who bought land are trying to justify it in their own heads - so that's their angle.:rolleyes:

OP - My biggest concern for you would be that you really don't know what you are getting into. It's a bit like those adds about puppies, not just being for Christmas. Farming isn't as idyllic as it is often painted to be. If you get into beef for example, you'll have sick, dying, aggressive animals to deal with. On top of that, you can have the constant strain of having to deal with a job that is 7 days a week, 365 days a year. It is not as stress free, as people might think.

RoboRat

Thanks for the replies, certainly more food for thought.

I was looking at the Artisan side of things because I have a lot of experience in marketing this and it would stand to me in that regards, play to your strengths as they say. As I said, it was just initial ideas that were quite baseless, I would need to sit down and plan it properly along with the FIR.

My biggest concern for you would be that you really don't know what you are getting into.

I agree, that is my concern but I have been dropped into quite a few sink or swim situations and have always managed. I have no illusions about how difficult farming can be and it is as you said 24/7/365... this being my primary concern.

In regards to the MA business, its solely online and we supply to some clubs direct. We started trading in Jan and I had set the figure of 10k in retail sales for the first year... we have done circa 24k and have an excellent reputation. Its mainly just order fulfilment, some design, marketing and management but I generally allocate 4 - 5 hours a week to it and its fine. Being honest, if it continues to grow as it has been, it could end up being the primary income source (our competitors in the UK turn over several million per year).

Being perfectly honest, what I would like is to manage the land, take on a smaller herd and grow that as I get more experience, alternatively I would go spring to Autumn. I know that the FIR has an excellent reputation for producing fine stock and generally gets premium price at the mart and that is what I would like to do... quality over quantity. I have no issues with the hard work side of things, I bought a wreck of a house back in 2006 and spent 6 years after work and weekends gutting and renovating it - I had no experience whatsoever but I taught myself - I wired the house, completely relaid the gardens, plastered the walls, extended the back, put the kitchen in etc. The only major issue with farming is that I would like to get a week or 2 a year away from it but I know that this can be an problem.

Has your wife any siblings? For that size of a farm l wouldn't be commiting to any more than what they wull be providing for them. Ie if the fil/mil have health care needs tgey are looked after equally by all siblings. In a way you are doing your fil a favour unless he wants to see the farm sold.

She has 2 sisters, 1 is married and both her and the spouse have very well paid jobs and she lives very close to the farm, the other sister lives in Dublin and her long term bf has no intention of moving to the country. Both don't feel that taking the farm is an option for them. A lot of my wife's uncles and cousins live near, some have farming experience so there is a lot of people to call on if needs be.

Also, some quick calculations which contribute to the overall picture:
Cost on Diesel for transport to work p/w is circa €65 x 52 = €3,380
Childminding is €150 p/w x 52 = €7,800 (I think that between my wife finishing at 2.30 and me being about the farm, this could be stopped)
Oil = circa €1000 p/a - FIR cuts his own turf
Thats working out at €12,180 p/a of a saving and when you calculate how much of my taxable income this is costing me, it has to be taken into account.

Once again, thanks for taking the time to respond with your advice, its most appreciated.