Special Sessions

Itziger

I'd like to run this past people on here. A friend of a friend has very kindly come on board with some training plans for me and I am in no way looking to criticize the bloke as he's doing this out of the goodness of his heart. For next Wed he's prescribed the following......

2 km warm up, 8 km @ race pace 4'15/km, 1'30 rest, 6 km @ 4'05/km, 1'30 rest, 4 km @ 3'55/km, 2 km cool down.

Don't know if I'm getting soft but it looks like a tough mofo to me. He agreed! And said it was a special session for marathon prep.

Any comments from those with experience? and I repeat, I am not having a go at the guy or his plan. I should point out that I,ll be 'busy' next weekend so he's taken that into account. The target race, where I'm not even going for 4,15 pace (more 4,20) is on the 21st.

pointer28

What kind of race pace?

Marathon?

Looks like a condensed version of the 5,4,3,2,1 mile MP session

average_runner

Itziger wrote: »

I'd like to run this past people on here. A friend of a friend has very kindly come on board with some training plans for me and I am in no way looking to criticize the bloke as he's doing this out of the goodness of his heart. For next Wed he's prescribed the following......

2 km warm up, 8 km @ race pace 4'15/km, 1'30 rest, 6 km @ 4'05/km, 1'30 rest, 4 km @ 3'55/km, 2 km cool down.

Don't know if I'm getting soft but it looks like a tough mofo to me. He agreed! And said it was a special session for marathon prep.

Any comments from those with experience? and I repeat, I am not having a go at the guy or his plan. I should point out that I,ll be 'busy' next weekend so he's taken that into account. The target race, where I'm not even going for 4,15 pace (more 4,20) is on the 21st.

If u can't hit those times, then the session needs to reflect that. Also either ur communication to the coach is not where it should be or he is not listening to you.

average_runner

Itziger wrote: »

I'd like to run this past people on here. A friend of a friend has very kindly come on board with some training plans for me and I am in no way looking to criticize the bloke as he's doing this out of the goodness of his heart. For next Wed he's prescribed the following......

2 km warm up, 8 km @ race pace 4'15/km, 1'30 rest, 6 km @ 4'05/km, 1'30 rest, 4 km @ 3'55/km, 2 km cool down.

Don't know if I'm getting soft but it looks like a tough mofo to me. He agreed! And said it was a special session for marathon prep.

Any comments from those with experience? and I repeat, I am not having a go at the guy or his plan. I should point out that I,ll be 'busy' next weekend so he's taken that into account. The target race, where I'm not even going for 4,15 pace (more 4,20) is on the 21st.

If u can't hit those times, then the session needs to reflect that. Also either ur communication to the coach is not where it should be or he is not listening to you.

Itziger

pointer28 wrote: »

What kind of race pace?

Marathon?

Looks like a condensed version of the 5,4,3,2,1 mile MP session

Yeah, marathon.

Tis a bit like a the 5,4,3,2,1 but getting faster instead of staying put.

Meanwhile, the other session I'll have to give serious consideration to is the 29k with about 12k at MP eight days before the race. Up to now, I've erred on the conservative side for the last 2 weeks.

Itziger

average_runner wrote: »

If u can't hit those times, then the session needs to reflect that. Also either ur communication to the coach is not where it should be or he is not listening to you.

This is something we'll need to work on....... going forward!

pointer28

The 5,4,3,2,1 session that I was recommended had the 2 & 1 at HM pace so getting faster towards the end when they were also getting shorter.

Anyway, I have no business giving advice but they sound like they're elite level workouts to me.

What level are you at and is your coach experienced coaching at that level? I ask because I deal with a lot of coaches (not running related) in my work and some of the best elite coaches just don't do well with non-elite competitors.

Maybe someone like Ecolii or KC will weigh in with some thoughts.

pistol_75

Maybe if you give some information on what sessions you have been doing in the build up to this someone might be able to offer the right advice.

What you have been doing up to now will put this session in context.

KielyUnusual

You are running a marathon on the 21st (i.e. 3 weeks time) and you've got a new coach coming in at this stage giving you your workouts? Why are you getting in someone new at this stage? Would they not be better off giving you a structured plan that leads up to a longer term goal?

My two cents is that a session like this should be perfectly manageable 3 weeks out from a marathon where ideally you should be in almost peak shape. The 10 sec/km seems like a reasonable increase in pace as a percentage of your marathon pace (if that's what he's basing it on), when you take in to account the drop off in distance.

ThebitterLemon

I think it a bit too much given that you did a marathon only 5 weeks ago.

Does the coach know you have just finished a marathon?

TbL

Letyourselfgo

The session 8 days out seems pointless, can't see what's going to be gained. Maybe 3x1 mile at mp would suffice.

The other session doesn't look too bad. A progression run from what appears to be mp to HP to 10k pace. But a couple of things. This is going to be your last big session, doesn't seem long enough to me. Longer warm up and cool down a and I'd have the progression more at slightly slower than mp to mp to HP, no need for 10k pace.


But the bigger question is have you done enough consistent training so that you're able for the above?

Itziger

I'll try to answer most of the points in one go. To be fair, this is all kinda falling between two stools. I did Frankfurt marathon and had a fairly poor day so when the opportunity of doing Pisa presented itself, I thought, why not. Maybe not go for the sub 3 again but at least try for a pb (currently 3.09)

Then a friend said, would you be interested in a Half in March and my coach will give you training plans? Fine, says I. This fella is going for an aggressive sub 1.20 - whereas I'll be thrilled with a 1.20.59 which would be a 90 second pb. Of course, I had to point out to the coach that I had a little marathon in between. He said, I'll tailor the first few weeks with that in mind. So far, so good. I did the first two weeks and they were enjoyable. I liked the mixture of speed, easy, long(ish). Then today he gave me the next two weeks. I thought the two sessions I highlighted were interesting. The progression one I'll give a lash but the 29k with a week to go...... not so sure.

I did most of the Daniels 2Q 18 week plan for Frankfurt and it resulted in my first non pb in 6 marathons. I should say, to finish up, that I'm not sweating this race too much. It wasn't exactly a target race the way Frankfurt was.

Thanks for the replies.

Itziger

Letyourselfgo wrote: »

The session 8 days out seems pointless, can't see what's going to be gained. Maybe 3x1 mile at mp would suffice.

The other session doesn't look too bad. A progression run from what appears to be mp to HP to 10k pace. But a couple of things. This is going to be your last big session, doesn't seem long enough to me. Longer warm up and cool down a and I'd have the progression more at slightly slower than mp to mp to HP, no need for 10k pace.


But the bigger question is have you done enough consistent training so that you're able for the above?

Lety, I might take the suggestions on the progression run on board. I like your idea of paces mixed there. (Maybe I just like it cos it's easier!)

I've just looked at the paces again, and realised that the final one IS my HM pace, so I might give it a lash. Will have to think about where to do it though. In the dark will be tough, can't do traffic..... track would be brutal for that distance, but, hey, at least I'm not looking for excuses to get out of it!!

dublin runner

Risk vs. Reward. That's the question I would ask myself.

Can anyone really improve in between two marathons when so close together? Realistically you won't improve to any great degree. What will make the difference is getting yourself as sharp as possible come race day. Focus simply on this and don't fret about hitting certain times and achieving certain distances. Get your preparation, diet etc. spot-on.

The coach is in somewhat of a difficult position. You have just completed a marathon and are quickly about to start a new one. What can a new coach really do? The coach will make a big difference next year but his hands are kind of tied until the new year.

Listen to your body. At this stage you know yourself better than your coach does.

Itziger

dublin runner wrote: »

Risk vs. Reward. That's the question I would ask myself.

Can anyone really improve in between two marathons when so close together? Realistically you won't improve to any great degree. What will make the difference is getting yourself as sharp as possible come race day. Focus simply on this and don't fret about hitting certain times and achieving certain distances. Get your preparation, diet etc. spot-on.

The coach is in somewhat of a difficult position. You have just completed a marathon and are quickly about to start a new one. What can a new coach really do? The coach will make a big difference next year but his hands are kind of tied until the new year.

Listen to your body. At this stage you know yourself better than your coach does.

Couldn't have put it much better myself D.R. I did try a quicker turn around on marathons once before. A couple of years ago I did Metz and Valencia, can't remember if it was 5 or 6 weeks, think it was 5 actually. Did 3.14 in 1st and 3.12 in 2nd. Both then pb's so I have a little experience of this crack. The way I look at it, I've done a fair bit of training - the first race didn't go as I'd hoped. Why not give it a second go. Not expecting huge improvement, but it would be nice to finish the year a little more positively.

But as to the coach's hands being tied, you're right. After Pisa I hope to take a week off and a week easy...

dublin runner

Itziger wrote: »

Couldn't have put it much better myself D.R. I did try a quicker turn around on marathons once before. A couple of years ago I did Metz and Valencia, can't remember if it was 5 or 6 weeks, think it was 5 actually. Did 3.14 in 1st and 3.12 in 2nd. Both then pb's so I have a little experience of this crack. The way I look at it, I've done a fair bit of training - the first race didn't go as I'd hoped. Why not give it a second go. Not expecting huge improvement, but it would be nice to finish the year a little more positively.

But as to the coach's hands being tied, you're right. After Pisa I hope to take a week off and a week easy...

Just because the race didn't go according to plan doesn't' mean all that training has somehow meant nothing! Some days it just isn't there.

I have no doubt that someone can improve their time within a short turn around. Think of it as a freebie, with little pressure. Get yourself sharp, learn from your mistakes (that's my plan anyway!) and most of all, don't over-train. That's the biggest risk; you try to hammer out sessions and risk everything. It's better to be under than over cooked. Be realistic in your targets and most of all, enjoy!

Itziger

dublin runner wrote: »

Just because the race didn't go according to plan doesn't' mean all that training has somehow meant nothing! Some days it just isn't there.

I have no doubt that someone can improve their time within a short turn around. Think of it as a freebie, with little pressure. Get yourself sharp, learn from your mistakes (that's my plan anyway!) and most of all, don't over-train. That's the biggest risk; you try to hammer out sessions and risk everything. It's better to be under than over cooked. Be realistic in your targets and most of all, enjoy!

I love that word when it comes to the marathon. Don't know what it means, but I love it.

Rather than pure time, what I really want to do in this distance is a) not cramp, b) neg split, or at least so near it makes no difference c) not cramp.

ECOLII

Agree with the majority of what DR is saying

Very little physically to be gained in between multiple marathons. The previous Marathon will actually act as a huge fitness boost in itself however that does not mean that sessions are pointless. I am not going to presume to know exactly what the coach is thinking but a session like that can be great mental boost moreso than physical before the next attempt. I would approach it as that but err on the side of caution, if you need to pull the plug do, listen to your body very carefully at this stage and get to the start line 100% is more important than a physical or mental boost

Letyourselfgo

@ ecoli
just wondering what your thoughts are on the session 8 days out with 12k at MP?

ECOLII

Letyourselfgo wrote: »

@ ecoli
just wondering what your thoughts are on the session 8 days out with 12k at MP?

Without knowing the background of the overall plan in some cases it can be in line with the right approach for the athlete however given the multi marathon approach here I would exercise caution approaching it and don't let ego get in the way of pulling the plug early if needs be.

It could be a case where the coach has looked at the athletes background and decided that they are already in good shape and this tough on paper sessions provide more of a benefit mentally than the cost mentally, again each coach has their own line of thinking, as long as there is a decent rationale and the risks have been evaluated I wouldn't flat out say that it is the "wrong" approach.

Personally having dealt with a multi marathon scenario recently I tended to come from the other end of the spectrum - i.e using the weeks in between as maintenance and relying on the previous marathon provide the stimulus and the recovery period as compensatory to allow the body to adapt and improve for the next marathon attempt (no real long runs of high intensity sessions but rather just keep things ticking over)

Itziger

Well, just did the Progression session there. Felt like a good tester of where you're at. Tough but doable.
This is how it panned out. Remember the 'lap' is 1.01km so the time is good to go, without having to add the 2 or 3 seconds for Garmin effect.

The 8@4.15 were: 4.13, 4.10, 4.09, 4.08, 4.21, 4.14, 4.10, 4.16 (Don't know what happened the .21)

The 6@4.05 were: 4.06, 4.05, 4.05, 4.03, 4.04, 4.00 - spot on!

The 4@3.55 were: 3.54, 4.02, 3.53, 3.55

The last 4, as you can imagine, were tough. It was almost pitch dark for the last set as well but I know the path like the back of my hand. Felt great to hit the targets. It's the kind of session that you could do for a Half as well as a Full, but maybe you'd have to tweak the pace a small bit. The 2k cool down was up through the woods. Couldn't see in front of me but it was either that or 6k on the path!