"We're letting her have one litter..."

Vojera

Hi all.

I know this comes up every so often, but a friend of mine was telling me how he's letting his spaniel have "just one litter" before getting her spayed. I've tried explaining that this is an old wives tale, that he has no guarantee of finding homes for all the pups, that there are already enough dogs in rescues needing homes without adding to them, that it's an unnecessary risk to his dog's health, but he seems dead set on it.

Do any of ye know a good source I could direct him to on this? Or have ye managed to change someone's mind on this issue?

angeldaisy

A good friend of mine was dead set on this, she has a bichon frise.

I tried old wives tales etc, the only thing that worked for me was explaining - in very gory detail, all the mess, time etc that puppies create. She was working full time and explaining that she would need to take time out of work, being available to mum and pups 24/7 soon put her off.

Dog is now booked into be spayed following the waiting period of her first heat!

VonVix

How old is his spaniel? Saying he wants her to have a litter before she gets spayed makes me think she's young.

A lot of people think breeding is simple, but it's far more complicated and expensive when done right. I've never convinced anyone not to do it in the past but I can't imagine it being an easy task. A person shouldn't be breeding any dogs unless they are trying to improve the breed in my opinion and that requires a lot of money and research before any puppies are even here.

This link has some good info: http://www.chowwelfare.com/cciw/breeddog.htm

tk123

VonVix wrote: »

How old is his spaniel? Saying he wants her to have a litter before she gets spayed makes me think she's young.
/cciw/breeddog.htm[/url]

+1 Has she had a heat yet? If not she's too young to breed from - let him go thru one heat and he'll soon change his mind!

andreac

Oh god, they havent a clue.

Trust me, i knew all the ins and outs of having a litter but nothing prepared me for it when it actually happened. The madness was just unreal but great at the same time.
Your whole life is on hold for 8 weeks and thats only when the puppies arrived.

Ive never felt stress and worry like it on the run up to her whelping and the actually whelping process was very stressful too but thankfully it was all straight forward with no problems.

I did everything i could to prepare and spent a fortune on my litter. I ended up getting a pup back 2 weeks later too as it didnt work out with the owner and had to get a home for her, which i did quickly enough as id had lots of people enquiring for pups.

My bitch is spayed now as i dont plan on breeding again for a very very long time, if i ever even do again.

sillysmiles

VonVix wrote: »

A lot of people think breeding is simple, but it's far more complicated and expensive when done right. I

That's the important part.
When it's not done to the standard of people who care and want to improve the breed then there isn't that much work for the person - because they just don't do it.

Tranceypoo

andreac wrote: »

Oh god, they havent a clue.

Trust me, i knew all the ins and outs of having a litter but nothing prepared me for it when it actually happened. The madness was just unreal but great at the same time.
Your whole life is on hold for 8 weeks and thats only when the puppies arrived.

Ive never felt stress and worry like it on the run up to her whelping and the actually whelping process was very stressful too but thankfully it was all straight forward with no problems.

I did everything i could to prepare and spent a fortune on my litter. I ended up getting a pup back 2 weeks later too as it didnt work out with the owner and had to get a home for her, which i did quickly enough as id had lots of people enquiring for pups.

My bitch is spayed now as i dont plan on breeding again for a very very long time, if i ever even do again.

Thing is though Andrea, you're responsible, did all the checks, experienced, researched, are involved in the dog show world, put much thought into it etc etc, people like the OP's friend 'letting her have one litter' don't really give it much thought and honestly I don't think they care too much about whelping boxes, giving the pups the right vacs, worming etc, willing to take pups back if it doesn't work out, let's face it they're doing it for one reason and that's to make a bit of money and they probably will because they won't spend much on whelping boxes, special food before and after, vacs etc etc

OP, they only time I had a conversation with someone about this I too went into as much gorey detail as I could, the time, the expense, made up a few stories about people dogs dying, I really laid it on thick, now I don't think he was terribly serious about breeding and his wife (my friend) was against it, dog is now spayed and thankfully there were no pups. Good luck, honestly I nearly chewed my arm off I was so annoyed but I managed to stay calm and explain (which, if you knew me, you would know how hard it was!!)

gizmo555

angeldaisy wrote: »

Dog is now booked into be spayed following the waiting period of her first heat!

I understood it's better healthwise to do it before the 1st heat. Lower risk of mammary tumours.

http://spayaware.ie/Spaying%20Benefits_2013.pdf

tk123

gizmo555 wrote: »

I understood it's better healthwise to do it before the 1st heat. Lower risk of mammary tumours.

http://spayaware.ie/Spaying%20Benefits_2013.pdf

Actually depending on the breed/size it can be better to wait and let them have 1 heat to minimise the risk of a lots of other health issues/conditions..

Vojera

The dog is between her first and second heats so yes, she's still quite young. Her first heat was only a month or two ago.

Cheers for the links, I'll give them a proper read over when I get home. It's so frustrating because I know he's not going to put in the effort that people like andreac do, it'll be more an attitude of "Sure breeding is natural, she doesn't need any help, she'll be grand" and any pups will be given to the first person who asks.

I can't believe people still believe this sort of thing. And he's only in his early thirties, it's not like he's from a different generation!

Graces7

Have heard several times this year.. well I just want to see what they are like.. when the dog i one of the named cross breeds like pollywollydoodles.... or If I see a dog I like,,,

kylith

I think the best you can do is say something like 'Well, I hope you have better luck than my friend Mary. Pups got stuck and her dog died/needed an operation costing thousands/Couldn't find homes for them and was stuck with 8 puppies/Mother rejected them and she spent 6 weeks hand rearing them'.

It's probably harder to talk to the owners of a male because they don't have to deal with the pups at all. Thankfully the only one I've had to deal with was my brother, who isn't a total jackass, and I was able to make the case that the pounds are overflowing with dogs and no-one was going to want his mongrel puppies.

tk123

A guy local to me bred his jrt on her first heat(!) and ended up having to keep 2 of the pups because he couldn't find homes for them. Vicious little things the two of them - no socialisation at all.

Rips

Good luck.

I complimented a dog the other day on its temperament and despite the owner gushing for 15mins about just how good the dog was and how he spoiled her, he subsequently asked me did I want her :rolleyes:

No I said, I can't have another dog.

Oh, he thought I might want her to breed from (?????????)

''Because she was already 4, and hasn't been bred yet.'' (she's a mixed breed BTW, spaniel cross!)

So even the people who understand the risks, who don't even want their dogs anymore, seem to think the only answer lies in breeding.

He was of the opinion she needed to be bred before she was spayed. And because he did care for her somewhat, wanted to home her to someone he thought would breed her. The same old 'one litter myth'

A bitch who is 4 years old, as healthy as they come, with an exceptional temperament.

We'll drown in dogs.

Tranceypoo

Rips wrote: »

Good luck.

I complimented a dog the other day on its temperament and despite the owner gushing for 15mins about just how good the dog was and how he spoiled her, he subsequently asked me did I want her :rolleyes:

No I said, I can't have another dog.

Oh, he thought I might want her to breed from (?????????)

''Because she was already 4, and hasn't been bred yet.'' (she's a mixed breed BTW, spaniel cross!)

So even the people who understand the risks, who don't even want their dogs anymore, seem to think the only answer lies in breeding.

He was of the opinion she needed to be bred before she was spayed. And because he did care for her somewhat, wanted to home her to someone he thought would breed her. The same old 'one litter myth'

A bitch who is 4 years old, as healthy as they come, with an exceptional temperament.

We'll drown in dogs.

Christ on a f king bike, sometimes I feel like there's no hope!!!:mad:

Fluorescence

Rips wrote: »

Good luck.

I complimented a dog the other day on its temperament and despite the owner gushing for 15mins about just how good the dog was and how he spoiled her, he subsequently asked me did I want her :rolleyes:

No I said, I can't have another dog.

Oh, he thought I might want her to breed from (?????????)

''Because she was already 4, and hasn't been bred yet.'' (she's a mixed breed BTW, spaniel cross!)

So even the people who understand the risks, who don't even want their dogs anymore, seem to think the only answer lies in breeding.

He was of the opinion she needed to be bred before she was spayed. And because he did care for her somewhat, wanted to home her to someone he thought would breed her. The same old 'one litter myth'

A bitch who is 4 years old, as healthy as they come, with an exceptional temperament.

We'll drown in dogs.

Jayzis, we need a public service announcement or something.


OP, try telling your friend that if he wants to reduce the risk of his bitch getting mammary cancers she needs to be spayed at the latest before her second heat. Spaying after gives her no protection against these cancers.

I suspect going into the gory messy disgusting details of how difficult hand-rearing a pup is, or having emergency c-sections for pups that get stuck will be the only way. Depending on what kind of dog he lets her breed with, she could have huge difficulties and might not even make it.

Horror stories are the only way for ignorant people who don't want to listen to reason

SingItOut

I was the same as your friend OP, but I wanted a litter from my terrier simply to keep the line going when she passes away (which I hope won't be until 10+ or more years). I knew none of the puppies would be a clone of their mum but I wanted something to remember her by. I waited until she was 4 to even consider breeding from her as she was quite puppy-ish so I didn't want to take that away from her. I had her and the potential dad both checked by a vet before hand and did everything by the book. Then the more I thought about it I realised what a selfish thing it would be to do to my dog for my own benefit and what if I did rehome all the puppies there's no guarantee they wouldn't end up being put to sleep in a pound later in their lives, I just couldn't live with myself knowing I would have caused that. I had her spayed during the summer and never bred from her. You could tell your friend about that harsh reality.

I'm going to get slated for this but personally the way things are in pounds and shelters all over the country nobody should be breeding from their dog, that goes for "reputable" breeders too. There are far too many pure Breeds put to sleep in the pounds every day, they are just as good as one with papers.

ferretone

I have another horror story to add to the list, almost fresh off the press. On Monday I had to bring my neighbour and her lovely Saluki x Grey boy (neutered) in to the vet to have warty lumps removed from his throat, as they were growing.

When we were picking him up in the evening, the nurses were telling us that earlier in the day, the vet had had to go out to deliver 6 puppies for a lovely collie, belonging to a lovely old man. Horrific delivery. Poor girl didn't make it, and they'd had to call a wonderful lady they have on their books, who has reared many orphan pups, and hardly lost any. Really cute pups, they showed us the photos, and I'm rooting for them that they make it. Poor old man is distraught, and has been promised the pick of the litter if they do.

Guess what? He'll be having having her spayed, and never breeding again!

boomerang

Vojera wrote: »

a friend of mine was telling me how he's letting his spaniel have "just one litter"

I hate that expression. As if the dog requested it. Female dogs don't grow up dreaming of having puppies one day. It's not necessary for their wellbeing at all.

Ashbx

I may get a bit of unwanted attention for this but funnily enough, I actually have a nice story! My friend bred her Yorkshire Terrier before going into her second heat. Bo had 5 beautiful puppies. I was actually living with her at the time and got to witness it from conception to delivery!

Having 5 puppies in the house yes was a handful but not as bad as people seem to be making it out to be. Although my friend was not a breeder, she did her research found out what she needed to do and did it. She managed to find homes for all her dogs before they were even 4 weeks old. She only charged for the price of the vaccinations plus an extra tenner (to cover the mothers food, vet bills etc etc) so she was not doing this for profit purposes. She got the dog spayed soon after (which was her intention all along) and all went so successfully from beginning to end.

People are warning about the costs and mess etc and honestly, none of this was an issue for my friend (or me...relating to the mess). I understand people are trying to make it out to be worse to prove a point. But it can also be an amazing time. I don't think I would ever do it myself but it was very nice to be a part of the process.

To be honest, I don't know her reasoning for my friend doing this. I think she, like the OPs friend, felt that the dog had some longing to have puppies when we all know this is not the case. By no means do I agree with my friend. I don't see why you should get your dog pregnant just for the sake of it and agree Singitout that I wish I could see all dogs out of rescue centres before more dogs are being bred (by reputable breeders or regular breeders).

boomerang

If it was the easiest thing in the world to see a dam through pregnancy, whelping and then caring for the pups too (which it isn't, if you're doing it right) I STILL would not put my dog through the pain and duress of whelping and nursing. In the excitement over puppies I think a lot of people forget that it's no picnic for the mother dog.

If I had a rescue dog whelp here, the puppies wouldn't leave until they were socialised, fully vaccinated, fully wormed, NEUTERED and on their way to being litter-trained.

Rips

Ashbx wrote: »

I may get a bit of unwanted attention for this but funnily enough, I actually have a nice story! My friend bred her Yorkshire Terrier before going into her second heat. Bo had 5 beautiful puppies. I was actually living with her at the time and got to witness it from conception to delivery!

Having 5 puppies in the house yes was a handful but not as bad as people seem to be making it out to be. Although my friend was not a breeder, she did her research found out what she needed to do and did it. She managed to find homes for all her dogs before they were even 4 weeks old. She only charged for the price of the vaccinations plus an extra tenner (to cover the mothers food, vet bills etc etc) so she was not doing this for profit purposes. She got the dog spayed soon after (which was her intention all along) and all went so successfully from beginning to end.

People are warning about the costs and mess etc and honestly, none of this was an issue for my friend (or me...relating to the mess). I understand people are trying to make it out to be worse to prove a point. But it can also be an amazing time. I don't think I would ever do it myself but it was very nice to be a part of the process.

To be honest, I don't know her reasoning for my friend doing this. I think she, like the OPs friend, felt that the dog had some longing to have puppies when we all know this is not the case. By no means do I agree with my friend. I don't see why you should get your dog pregnant just for the sake of it and agree Singitout that I wish I could see all dogs out of rescue centres before more dogs are being bred (by reputable breeders or regular breeders).

€50( €10 per pup) wouldn't cover the costs of the scan of any health tests, a respectable stud fee or specialist food, worming or registration, microchipping. Assuming she only paid for first vacs, those pups could still be out in the world without full protection, unchipped and who knows where they'll end up ... I'd hardly call that a 'happy story'.

People breed dogs illegitimately for selfish reasons, to sooth their own fears or anthropomorphic beliefs. They do it to have cute puppies and they often don't consider the risks, or the future of the pups they are breeding. And yes, it can go without a hitch, meaning the people who do it, get to have the 'cute puppy aww days', and its rescue down the line that are left to pick up the pieces.

If I had a couple of hundred euro to throw at a breeding bitch, I'd foster one from rescue and put the money to good use. Plenty of charities scraping pennies to get the basic aftercare costs covered.

andreac

Ashbx, if the Bitch had the litter before her second heat, how old was she??
Most bitches start their seasons around 6 months then every 6 months or so. So give or take a month here or there she must not have been much older than 12 months which means she was only a puppy really herself.

DBB

Ashbx wrote: »

Having 5 puppies in the house yes was a handful but not as bad as people seem to be making it out to be.
....
People are warning about the costs and mess etc and honestly, none of this was an issue for my friend (or me...relating to the mess). I understand people are trying to make it out to be worse to prove a point.

In fairness Ashbx, having reared a littler of Boxer x Labs born here, and fostered I-don't-know-how-many very young medium or large-breed puppies in my time, raising a litter of Yorkshire terrier pups would feel like a walk in the park!
I enjoyed it a lot, but my god in every case I was well glad to see the back of them too. Not trying to prove a point at all, the reality is that rearing bigger pups is an absolute bloody mess and stink, and I'm not particularly houseproud. As my colleagues described it, "DBB has turned her house into a kennel"

zef

I would like to see a no-pup breeding ban for 12 months just to absorb the number of unwanted dogs we have at the moment. It's not going to go away unless something is done about it. I know it sounds crazy extreme, and maybe true breeders trying to better bloodlines could apply for an exemption. Hopefully it would hit BYBs and the people making money from 'pollywollydoodles'

Ashbx

DBB wrote: »

In fairness Ashbx, having reared a littler of Boxer x Labs born here, and fostered I-don't-know-how-many very young medium or large-breed puppies in my time, raising a litter of Yorkshire terrier pups would feel like a walk in the park!
I enjoyed it a lot, but my god in every case I was well glad to see the back of them too. Not trying to prove a point at all, the reality is that rearing bigger pups is an absolute bloody mess and stink, and I'm not particularly houseproud. As my colleagues described it, "DBB has turned her house into a kennel"

Oh I totally agree with you! And to be honest, it was a bit of a handful at times and if I was considering breeding mine before, this experience really did put in in perspective for me! The biggest issue we had with the yorkie pups was trying to avoid standing on them when walking around the house! So I do understand its going to be different with different breeds but not all breeding stories are horror stories!

Rips - Im not sure how much she charged for the pups but the point I was making was she wasn't doing it for the money or the cute puppies or anything. She did it because she was convinced (like the OPs friend) that a dog must fulfil some longing they have to be a mother. I know this is not the case. The happy part to my story was actually rearing the puppies. Everyone was saying how messy it was, how much time it took, how smelly it was etc. etc. My "happy story" was that it wasn't messy and that the bitch didn't meet her demise by having these pups! I understand people were trying to get their point across but its not all bad news.

I do agree with you though. I think money could be better spent somewhere else! Plus there is enough dogs in the shelters at the moment, we don't need more! I really wanted to get a particular breed for my second dog but decided against it and got a rescue dog instead and I feel so much better in my decision!

I understand your concern re the pups when they have grown up. Funnily enough, she still sees 3 of the pups regularly so its only two that she doesn't know really how they are getting on.

Andreac - I actually just asked the owner and Bo was born in February and had the pups the following August so was a year and a half thereabouts. Agree she was still quite young but handled it very well. Had no issues from start to finish!

Vojera

A small update - over the weekend my friend has picked himself up one of those "free to a good home" dogs advertised on a facebook group, and the two dogs are getting on great and now the idea of a litter seems to have disappeared (only proving there were no good reasons for her to have a litter in the first place and that all he wanted was another dog). Fingers crossed his mind will stay changed that way and he doesn't end up wanting them both to have litters at some stage. It's so frustrating.