Rent going up, advise please.

metalgear2k2

Hi folks,

bit of history 1st I suppose.

We have been renting the house for the past 4 years paying a rent of €700 a month. We have been good tenants (in my opinion I take care of anything DIYish that needs to be done but always notify the landlord. Anything that I can't do myself I get a price from a few professionals and let the landlord decide whether he wants to sort the issue himself or will I look after it and take it out of the rent. We rarely see the landlord as he lives in Dublin and the house is in Cork. I'd say I have met him face to face 3-4 times in the past 2 years. This is fine for us, we keep the house well and seems to work for the landlord as he has never passed any comment otherwise.

2 years ago last August we signed a new 12 month contract/lease, same as the last one as far as I know. We didn't get any for the past year and didn't ask for one.

A few weeks ago I got a text from the landlord telling me that due to financial pressure the rent will go up €100 in January. I was pretty disappointed that this was delivered by text and not face to face or by email/letter.

I know €800 a month is probably cheap for a house in a city but this is a small village and we thought the rent was already on the dear side but we liked the house to decided to take it.

I don't want to fall out with the landlord as I think we have a good arrangement at the moment but I think the €100 is too much and definitely above the going rate for the area regardless of how nice the house is.

I guess I'm looking on advice on how to handle the situation, my/our rights considering we don't have a current contract/lease. Can the landlord just evict us if we refuse to pay the extra €100 etc?

Any help will be greatly appreciated, thanks.

xper

The landlord can only charge the market rate, his/her "financial pressures" are irrelevant. If you feel that 800 per month is above the market rate for the type of house in your area then you can take a case with the PRTB. You must do this within 28 days of receiving the notification of the rent increase. You continue paying the current rent rate until the case is decided. If the PTRB disagrees with you and decides the new rate is in line with the market, you will have to pay the new rate backdated to the original date it was supposed to come into effect. Or the PRTB may direct the landlord to stick with the old rate.

Either way, you will of course have soured your relationship with the landlord to some extent. How big an issue this is depends entirely on the character of the individuals concerned.

As you have no fixed term lease in place, you are in a Part 4 tenancy. This is where your mention of renting the house for "the past four years" becomes very important. You cannot be given notice to vacate for taking a case with the PRTB or just because the landlord takes the hump with you UNLESS you are between 4 years and 4 years 6 months in the house. This is because a Part 4 tenancy starts on the day you move in and lasts four years. When it ends you immediately and automatically enter a Further Part 4 tenancy. During the first six months of this new four year period, you can be given notice to vacate without reason. After that period is over, there are only limited circumstances in which you can be made leave as long as you are paying the legally binding rent rate.

You would also be entitled to 112 days notice to leave if it does come to that. You would have to give the landlord 56 days notice if you decide you want to leave.

davo10

OP you got great advice above, bare in mind that if you have been paying the same rent for four years, chances are in Cork the cost of renting has gone up but not as much as say, Dublin.

Unfortunately it's not what you think the house is worth, it's what the market thinks it is worth and if the going rate for a similar house in that area is €800 then the increase is reasonable. You may have to prove it is not if you make a complaint but as the poster above said, you will be liable for backdated €100 pm if you lose.

The most important point is the end of your Part 4 tenancy after 4 years, if you refuse to pay, LL can give you the relavant notice and ask you to leave. Once you refuse to pay, LL will seek advice and find this out straight away.

garhjw

OP, as. Other posters have stated, the rent has to be in line with market rates. Can you find examples of similar properties to rent in your area? If so, are they at €800 per month? If they aren't, I would put this to the landlord. If it is in line with market rates, you could try to negotiate with your landlord, perhaps suggest €750? If you are good tenants he Might decide to accept...

Eldarion

You should try to negotiate him down to a €50 increase. Tell him he's likely to incur a greater loss over the course of the re-letting with vacant tenancy and advertising costs. I'd also point out that you've been a model tenant and haven't caused him any hassle where as a new tenant could end up causing being a problem tenant or just be more hassle for him in general.

He shouldn't want to rock the boat too much as he sounds like he has a good deal. Definitely room to negotiate here I feel. He might feel it's worth rolling the dice for an extra €100 a month but it becomes a harder call if it's only €40 or €50 in the difference.

metalgear2k2

wow, lots of information in the above posts. Thank you everyone!

We moved in, in Aug 2010 so we are right in the middle of the 1st 6 months of the new Part 4 tenancy. So he could just make us leave if we don't agree to the hike?

I would like to negotiate and try bring it down, we would probably pay €750 to keep him happy but I have looked at a couple of places that are available to rent in the area, one is €550 a month, the other is €650. There are not that many places available in the area as it's a small village.

I got the text on the 30/10/14 so I guess I only have a few days to take it to PRTB. According to threshold a text is not notice, must be in writing:

http://www.threshold.ie/download/pdf/top_tips_for_rent_reviews.pdf

We are good tenants, he is a good landlord, I don't want to sour the relationship but I don't think we are willing to pay the €800 and if he won't budge we will probably start looking around for somewhere else.

quietsailor

metalgear2k2 wrote: »

wow, lots of information in the above posts. Thank you everyone!

We moved in, in Aug 2010 so we are right in the middle of the 1st 6 months of the new Part 4 tenancy. So he could just make us leave if we don't agree to the hike?

I would like to negotiate and try bring it down, we would probably pay €750 to keep him happy but I have looked at a couple of places that are available to rent in the area, one is €550 a month, the other is €650. There are not that many places available in the area as it's a small village.

I got the text on the 30/10/14 so I guess I only have a few days to take it to PRTB. According to threshold a text is not notice, must be in writing:

http://www.threshold.ie/download/pdf/top_tips_for_rent_reviews.pdf

We are good tenants, he is a good landlord, I don't want to sour the relationship but I don't think we are willing to pay the €800 and if he won't budge we will probably start looking around for somewhere else.

I'd be very careful of using threshold as a reference - there's been a thread here in the past where it was linked to where they mixed up the rules for fixed term and part 4 tenancies.

The Residential Tenancies Act 2004 is the law and the PRTB are the ones to interpret the law Check the PRTB website regarding using texts as notifications - from reading other threads on here they've allowed texts for eviction notices

metalgear2k2

quietsailor wrote: »

I'd be very careful of using threshold as a reference - there's been a thread here in the past where it was linked to where they mixed up the rules for fixed term and part 4 tenancies.

The Residential Tenancies Act 2004 is the law and the PRTB are the ones to interpret the law Check the PRTB website regarding using texts as notifications - from reading other threads on here they've allowed texts for eviction notices

From the PRTB website, page 2. written notice:

http://www.prtb.ie/docs/default-source/tenant-guides/good-tenant-guide-%28english%29.pdf?sfvrsn=4

mirrorwall14

To be honest if there is somewhere suitable at 550 a month Id move. That's a substantial monthly saving even before the increase on your current place?

metalgear2k2

We like the house we are in, we don't want to move. We are happy to pay the current price.

D3PO

I have no idea if 800 a month is reasonable for the rent in the area your in but if he hasn't increased the rent in 4 years then I cannot imagine its excessive or above market rate, despite your protestations.

you have 2 choices OP.

1 hand in your notice and move out
2 raise a PRTB dispute about the increase if you believe it is above market rent. Whilst awaiting an hearing you continue to pay the 700. If the PRTB find in the LLs favour however then you owe all the backrend while waiting on the hearing.

FWIW a 14% increase in rent in 4 years to me have little chance of being adjucated against. So really either accept it or move out.

metalgear2k2

D3PO wrote: »

I have no idea if 800 a month is reasonable for the rent in the area your in but if he hasn't increased the rent in 4 years then I cannot imagine its excessive or above market rate, despite your protestations.

you have 2 choices OP.

1 hand in your notice and move out
2 raise a PRTB dispute about the increase if you believe it is above market rent. Whilst awaiting an hearing you continue to pay the 700. If the PRTB find in the LLs favour however then you owe all the backrend while waiting on the hearing.

FWIW a 14% increase in rent in 4 years to me have little chance of being adjucated against. So really either accept it or move out.

You are absolutely correct, you have no idea.

Leilak

my landlord too has increased my rent by 100 a month since sept going from 700 to 800 for 3 bed in youghal

emeldc

metalgear2k2 wrote: »

You are absolutely correct, you have no idea.

Actually, I'd say he probably has a better understanding of it than you have.

endacl

D3PO wrote: »

I have no idea if 800 a month is reasonable for the rent in the area your in but if he hasn't increased the rent in 4 years then I cannot imagine its excessive or above market rate, despite your protestations.

you have 2 choices OP.

1 hand in your notice and move out
2 raise a PRTB dispute about the increase if you believe it is above market rent. Whilst awaiting an hearing you continue to pay the 700. If the PRTB find in the LLs favour however then you owe all the backrend while waiting on the hearing.

FWIW a 14% increase in rent in 4 years to me have little chance of being adjucated against. So really either accept it or move out.

There is a third option. Negotiate in a non-confrontational manner:

'Hi landlord. Tenant here. Is there any chance we might negotiate the increase? Perhaps meet somewhere in the middle?'

Arbiter of Good Taste

Michael_Noonan wrote: »

Has the LL mention registering for Irish Water at all?

Arbiter of Good Taste

endacl wrote: »

There is a third option. Negotiate in a non-confrontational manner:

'Hi landlord. Tenant here. Is there any chance we might negotiate the increase? Perhaps meet somewhere in the middle?'

Get yourself out of here with your sense talking

Baby01032012

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Get yourself out of here with your sense talking

I don't understand your post - you might explain.

Baby01032012

Michael_Noonan wrote: »

Has the LL mention registering for Irish Water at all?

Why would or should the landlord mento registering for Irish water. Nothing to do with the landlord. I haven't heard of a landlord mentioning to a tenant registering for any other utility like electricity or gas.

quietsailor

metalgear2k2 wrote: »

From the PRTB website, page 2. written notice:

http://www.prtb.ie/docs/default-source/tenant-guides/good-tenant-guide-%28english%29.pdf?sfvrsn=4

Can anyone remember threads about email or text notice. I have a hazy memory about an argument saying a written notice was provided but it wasn't a letter and someone provided a link to a dispute finding that backed it up.

Either way op only go by the PRTB rulings nothing else - even advice on here

D3PO

metalgear2k2 wrote: »

You are absolutely correct, you have no idea.

God your an ignorant so and so aren't you. Would you rather we all ignore your posts and don't reply to them ?

I know significantly more than you about tenancy rights and obligations so rather than being snide perhaps you should listen to what others have to say.

drumswan

quietsailor wrote: »

Can anyone remember threads about email or text notice. I have a hazy memory about an argument saying a written notice was provided but it wasn't a letter and someone provided a link to a dispute finding that backed it up.

Either way op only go by the PRTB rulings nothing else - even advice on here

The notice needs to be in writing 28 days before the increase. A text message is not sufficient.

D3PO

drumswan wrote: »

The notice needs to be in writing 28 days before the increase. A text message is not sufficient.

Im sure I have read where a PRTB report where they accepted a text as sufficient notice. So I wouldn't be so sure about that.

kandoola

quietsailor wrote: »

Can anyone remember threads about email or text notice. I have a hazy memory about an argument saying a written notice was provided but it wasn't a letter and someone provided a link to a dispute finding that backed it up.

Either way op only go by the PRTB rulings nothing else - even advice on here

I imagine in the PRTB it would be something like this.

Tenant : The LL didnt give me written notice. He only sent me a text.
LL : I sent him a text, and also sent it in writing.
Tenant : I didnt get it.
LL : Prove it.
Tenant : Dont have to
LL : Do
Tenant : Dont
LL : Do

PRTB : What can we make up now for this situation.

beauf

kandoola wrote: »

I imagine in the PRTB it would be something like this.

Tenant : The LL didnt give me written notice. He only sent me a text.
LL : I sent him a text, and also sent it in writing.
Tenant : I didnt get it.
LL : Prove it.
Tenant : Dont have to
LL : Do
Tenant : Dont
LL : Do

PRTB : What can we make up now for this situation.

I'm curious how you think anyone can prove they didn't get something?

The LL can send something by registered post to prove they sent it. or email and txt and get a delivery receipt.

quietsailor

D3PO wrote: »

Im sure I have read where a PRTB report where they accepted a text as sufficient notice. So I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I've tried searching boards but I can't come up with the thread - the more I think about this I remember arguing with someone about this, they were saying it had to be written - my reply was a text is written, the same as a letter is typed.

Then they argued something about proving delivery and I plus a few others were pointing out that you can prove a text was sent, it's more impersonal/hands off that saying you posted in the letter box and the tenant saying you didn't.

Someone posted they had read/read of a PRTB adjudication that accepted a text as proof

The_Conductor

They have accepted text messages- I've had a quick look and can't find the thread either- but I know that they have accepted them.

metalgear2k2

I was just speaking to someone from the PTRB, she said it must be in writing, text is not acceptable.

Also from the PTRB website, page 2 & 3:

http://www.prtb.ie/docs/default-source/tenant-guides/good-tenant-guide-%28english%29.pdf?sfvrsn=4

The_Conductor

Thats the official line.
In practice- they have accepted text messages.

metalgear2k2

The_Conductor wrote: »

Thats the official line.
In practice- they have accepted text messages.

Fair enough, I'm not really interested in arguing in whether its notice or not, I was more interested in the time limit for bringing it to the PTRB, what is outlined on the bottom of page 3 suits me. I was worried it was from the time I got the text but the date the new rent takes effect is late January so that's good.

I intend in getting all my information together, and asking the landlord to sit down and discuss it.

If we can't come to a agreement I will bring it to the PTRB.

quietsailor

metalgear2k2 wrote: »

I was just speaking to someone from the PTRB, she said it must be in writing, text is not acceptable.

Also from the PTRB website, page 2 & 3:

http://www.prtb.ie/docs/default-source/tenant-guides/good-tenant-guide-%28english%29.pdf?sfvrsn=4

Just consider "in writing" can mean anything --

A text will be easier to read than a badly handwritten, to the point of being unreadable, letter, both can be argued in some way as being not fit for purpose but at least a text can be tracked - if you go to the trouble of requesting info from a phone company. Text is no better or worse than a letter

Why the PRTB don't just say they officially accept texts as a form of communication is madness - They even include them on their own PRTB ICT Strategy scroll down to page 25