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Using an engineer for construction drawings and assigned certifier

  • 24-11-2014 12:14pm
    #1
    thebackbar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 468 ✭✭


    Hello,

    I've recently got planning permission for a house which was designed by a architect.

    His fees for drawing up construction drawings and acting as an assigned certifier are a bit on the steep side.

    I'm considering getting an engineer to do up the construction drawings and act as an assigned certifier.

    Any major disadvantage in using this approach ?

    thanks


Comments

  • #2
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,354 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    thebackbar wrote: »
    His fees for drawing up construction drawings and acting as an assigned certifier are a bit on the steep side.

    I'm considering getting an engineer to do up the construction drawings and act as an assigned certifier.

    Have your priced the Engineer yet?
    May not be much of a difference as both have to sit on top of the tree to act as AC for the BCAR.

    Also, do you mind us asking how much you were quoted and your general area as it gives us an idea of how much the ammended regulations have pushed up costs. Thanks.


  • #3
    thebackbar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 468 ✭✭thebackbar


    i haven't received a price from the engineer yet.

    10k for construction drawings and 10k for assigned certifer are the numbers im looking at from the architect.


  • #4
    bmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 912 ✭✭✭bmm


    thebackbar wrote: »
    i haven't received a price from the engineer yet.

    10k for construction drawings and 10k for assigned certifer are the numbers im looking at from the architect.

    Oh dear God !!!! The Celtic tiger is back for sure !


  • #5
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    bmm wrote: »
    Oh dear God !!!! The Celtic tiger is back for sure !

    Nothing to do with a tiger, it's to do with Si9 (new building control regs)


  • #6
    thebackbar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 468 ✭✭thebackbar


    anyways .. has anyone done this before ? given that i've paid for the plans there should be no copyright etc issues ?


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  • #7
    Rabbo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 637 ✭✭✭Rabbo


    It's not uncommon for another engineer/architect to take over after planning stage. You are not tied to your original architect as presumably you have made no commitment to him/her. Additionally, there should be no problem with copyright however your original architect may not release the drawing files (autocad .dwg or similar) meaning your engineer will have to redraw from scratch.

    Make sure you are satisfied that your new engineer is experienced and knowledgeable enough to take on the AC (& PSDP) role, don't go with them just because they are the cheapest.


  • #8
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    thebackbar wrote: »
    i haven't received a price from the engineer yet.

    10k for construction drawings and 10k for assigned certifer are the numbers im looking at from the architect.

    Nuts.

    €6.5k is the cheapest I've come across for AC.

    And I'm very suspect of what 'drawings' are in advance of a full spec of how and what you're building, first.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #9
    overshoot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,254 ✭✭✭overshoot


    bmm wrote: »
    Oh dear God !!!! The Celtic tiger is back for sure !
    I do love how someone jumps in with this ****e once fees are quoted, quite simply there is not enough info to say if it is a rip off or good value.
    If the project is a 150k bog standard, bungalow bliss house, rip off.
    For the majority of houses it is certainly on the high side.
    If it is a 750k bespoke design, its fantastic value.
    Then theres what exact service is being offered, if it includes a full design team, PSDP, other site complexities, (the area wasnt given when asked)

    But to answer the OP's questions, yes happens all the time where there is a different designer and certifier. The architect retains copyright of plans but you have a licence to use them as drawn... as in dont go copying and pasting onto another site.


  • #10
    thebackbar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 468 ✭✭thebackbar


    the house is 250 sq meters in galway


  • #11
    Drift
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Drift


    Hey OP,

    Don't forget to include the costs of structural design (i.e. foundation design, beams, columns, etc.) in your calculations.

    Also you need someone to act as PSDP.

    When you are pricing around make sure you get clarification of what's included and what isn't. It's not just a matter of getting an AC and forgetting about it.


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  • #12
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Drift wrote: »
    Hey OP,

    Don't forget to include the costs of structural design (i.e. foundation design, beams, columns, etc.) in your calculations.

    Also you need someone to act as PSDP.

    When you are pricing around make sure you get clarification of what's included and what isn't. It's not just a matter of getting an AC and forgetting about it.


    depends on what you build it out of: the above only applies if site-built, as distinct from factory built. Factory-built should have lower DC/AC fees.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #13
    Drift
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Drift


    galwaytt wrote: »
    depends on what you build it out of: the above only applies if site-built, as distinct from factory built.
    No argument. Factory built houses will come with structural certification from the manufacturer and said manufacturer should also provide take down loadings to the engineer designing the foundations.

    galwaytt wrote: »
    Factory-built should have lower DC/AC fees.
    I see what you're getting at but if you follow that back up the chain logically a factory built house will have higher Ancillary Certifier costs, albeit already worked into the price being paid to the manufacturer.

    No arguments btw - just an interesting discussion with regards to liability!


  • #14
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Drift wrote: »
    I see what you're getting at but if you follow that back up the chain logically a factory built house will have higher Ancillary Certifier costs, albeit already worked into the price being paid to the manufacturer.

    No arguments btw - just an interesting discussion with regards to liability!

    Appreciate the comment, but AC costs would be lower, not higher. Off site construction has better quality controls, and is regularly audited (e.g. by Agrément etc) as standard. It's not a per-project charge, so cost is amortised over entire production capacity of the plant over a number of years, giving a far lower cost-per-build.

    So your AC should allow for that reduction in workload onsite.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #15
    Drift
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Drift


    galwaytt wrote: »
    so cost is amortised over entire production capacity of the plant over a number of years, giving a far lower cost-per-build.

    Fair point!


  • #16
    adam88
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭adam88


    thebackbar wrote: »
    i haven't received a price from the engineer yet.

    10k for construction drawings and 10k for assigned certifer are the numbers im looking at from the architect.

    20k and you haven't even turned the sod. Oh my god. What's the total build cost roughly


  • #17
    thebackbar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 468 ✭✭thebackbar


    adam88 wrote: »
    20k and you haven't even turned the sod. Oh my god. What's the total build cost roughly

    architect reckons ballpark 350k, hoping to do it for significantly less


  • #18
    Oral Surgeon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,240 ✭✭✭Oral Surgeon


    I priced an architect for my renovation. His fee including a structural engineer was in the region of €12-13k. I was quite set on the design I wanted so priced a structural engineer for the whole job instead. He has drawn plans, submitted for planning and is supervising the build for about €6.5k......


  • #19
    duckcfc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 616 ✭✭✭duckcfc


    bmm wrote: »
    Oh dear God !!!! The Celtic tiger is back for sure !

    I paid 650 or800 (can't remember what one) during Celtic tiger for engineer to look after my planning, site call outs, all drawings and 500 for cert when finished. I'd love the Celtic tiger days to be back instead of today's ridiculous prices!!!!


  • #20
    duckcfc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 616 ✭✭✭duckcfc


    adam88 wrote: »
    20k and you haven't even turned the sod. Oh my god. What's the total build cost roughly

    And don't forget the CC contribution fees, ESB, water which could easily add on another 20k. Only in Ireland lol


  • #21
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Back to the topic please & thanks


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  • #22
    braddun
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,221 ✭✭✭braddun


    did he not give you drawings or give them to the council


  • #23
    ArraMusha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 589 ✭✭✭ArraMusha


    Rabbo wrote: »
    .... however your original architect may not release the drawing files (autocad .dwg or similar) meaning your engineer will have to redraw from scratch.

    If the original architect won't release the source files (.dwg or similar) is there anything that can the done to avoid having to re-create them. Are the original files not legally owned by the client?


  • #24
    overshoot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,254 ✭✭✭overshoot


    ArraMusha wrote: »
    If the original architect won't release the source files (.dwg or similar) is there anything that can the done to avoid having to re-create them. Are the original files not legally owned by the client?
    For a very computer literate person, possibly but you would still be as well to just draw from scratch to get the accuracy required at detail design.

    And no the designer always owns their design, the copyright is theirs and the client has a license to use it (unless agreed otherwise). They are also in business, why make it easy for a one-off client to stop using their services? And if a good design, hand it to someone else for their portfolio?
    In short, be nice and you may have a chance, they will also be more than entitled to charge you a fee.


  • #25
    Crimsonforce
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭Crimsonforce


    I'm in the same boat, have planning permission, but architect is now too busy to take it to the next level. He has some large projects now on stream.....so we parted ways at this stage. He said pricing should be roughly 150k for extension. Can I give these drawings to an structural engineer to go to building stage ?
    Any idea of a cost associated with a build of around 150k


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