Not registered with TC to teach my subject

pinkbear

I have an engineering degree and a maths & science HDip, and according to the Teaching Council, I'm qualified to teach maths, physics and ICT. However I've been teaching technology for years. I'd love to get into maths, but my principal asks me every year to "do another year in technology". Basically it suits him to keep me in technology. My CID mentions Technology, Maths, Science, Physics and Computers.
I'm afraid to contact the Department of Education or the Teaching Council about my situation, in case it goes against me. Ideally I'd love to find out that I can't teach technology in the school, but my contract is safe, so I'd have to move into maths and physics. But my fear is that I'll be told that my contract and wages are in jeopardy.
If I talk to my principal, he'll tell me to keep my head down and say nothing. There is no-one in the school qualified to teach and be registered with the TC for technology, so it would cause him a bit of a problem. But I'm not overly sympathetic, as I stepped in to technology 12 years ago as a favour, and I could be lumbered for life at this rate.
Has anyone else been in a similar situation, or know anyone who has? What do you think I should do?

evolving_doors

pinkbear wrote: »

I have an engineering degree and a maths & science HDip, and according to the Teaching Council, I'm qualified to teach maths, physics and ICT. However I've been teaching technology for years. I'd love to get into maths, but my principal asks me every year to "do another year in technology". Basically it suits him to keep me in technology. My CID mentions Technology, Maths, Science, Physics and Computers.
I'm afraid to contact the Department of Education or the Teaching Council about my situation, in case it goes against me. Ideally I'd love to find out that I can't teach technology in the school, but my contract is safe, so I'd have to move into maths and physics. But my fear is that I'll be told that my contract and wages are in jeopardy.
If I talk to my principal, he'll tell me to keep my head down and say nothing. There is no-one in the school qualified to teach and be registered with the TC for technology, so it would cause him a bit of a problem. But I'm not overly sympathetic, as I stepped in to technology 12 years ago as a favour, and I could be lumbered for life at this rate.
Has anyone else been in a similar situation, or know anyone who has? What do you think I should do?

Basically it all comes down to the 'needs of the school' over-riding the TC...
So 'technically' you could be qualified in Japanese but if the Principal asks you to teach Technology then you teach technology.

You are right to be worried though as it might change in a few years... would you explore the option of getting yourself qualified in technology? I presume you want to get going teaching the other subjects too to get the experience in...

Depends where you're at yourself too though.. if you are mobile enough and it looks like you aren't going to ever get any hours in physics or maths then maybe start looking around!

pinkbear

Thanks for the information Armelodie. No, I definitely won't get further qualifications in technology - I despise the craft element of it..... always did, and always will. Need to think about my other options.

km79

Don't expect the teaching council to do anything to actually help a teacher
That does not seem to be their role !

TheDriver

I don't see how teaching technology or your Principal or your CID has anything to do with it, TC registration depends on your qualification. Saying you are qualified to teach it means nothing unless the TC has it. Its merely a paper exercise, have you sufficient units completed in college to be registered in those subjects.........

pinkbear

Hi TheDriver,
I don't understand your point. My degree course is not one of the ones allowed by the TC for teaching technology. But I have 11 years experience teaching it, and many years other relevant experience in this area. My question is can the TC stop me from teaching it at some point? Or stop my wages? If the TC / Dept forced me out of technology would the school be obliged to move me into another one of my areas? Should I bring this to the attention of the Department of Education, or my school, or just say nothing? I am registered to teach maths, physics and ICT.
PinkBear

Pwpane

At the moment, the TC cannot decide what subjects you teach in the school, only the principal. As you are not qualified in technology you are facilitating the principal by taking the subject. You have a CID, you won't lose your job by saying no.

In practice though, it might work better by coming up with a scheme like offering to train in someone as you gradually reduce your technology classes. For example say that next year someone else gets first years but you work closely with them. Next year they get first years and second years and you keep mentoring etc till you're out of technology and into physics or maths.

Or maybe you offer to take it on alternate years, and get out fully in a few years time.

The principal just wants the subject well covered. Give them a way to do that and keep you happy too. It's always better to have more than one teacher able to take a subject anyway.

evolving_doors

Thats a good idea about phasing in a 'qualified' teacher over a few years.

Just wondering though, the trick is not so much the hours for Technology, but rather moving the OP initially onto low hours for another subject. Presumably it would be the Maths and Physics. Maybe have a look at the lay of the land for maths OP, there might be a good few teachers training themselves up to have it as a second subject in your school, so it could be a dogfight if someone retires or hours come up. In our school theres about 4 teachers positioning themselves to move into maths. Also consider your CPD/ inservices/subject associations for the other subjects. As it would be on the tick-box for any interview in another school.

Might be something to consider OP (and its a big commitment !) but would you consider offering extra classes in Applied Maths...(if theres none in the school) . Not so much for the School but for your CV/exit strategy, ...also you should be able to get registered with the TC for it given your background... (might have to do a few modules). Its a really do-able 'spare' points subject esp. for the hons maths/physics students... it might mean classes outside regular hours though (for no pay!! maybe ask for some type of stipend).

Be wary of any promises made to keep you sweet and in the school... you have to assume that nothing will change and the Principal's mission is to keep you in the status quo (and in fairness he has to look after the needs of the school first and foremost). I think we all know of a few cases where teachers are promised things but they dont materialise.

rainbowtrout

pinkbear wrote: »

Hi TheDriver,
I don't understand your point. My degree course is not one of the ones allowed by the TC for teaching technology. But I have 11 years experience teaching it, and many years other relevant experience in this area. My question is can the TC stop me from teaching it at some point? Or stop my wages? If the TC / Dept forced me out of technology would the school be obliged to move me into another one of my areas? Should I bring this to the attention of the Department of Education, or my school, or just say nothing? I am registered to teach maths, physics and ICT.
PinkBear

The teaching council and dept of education have no say in the time tabling in your school. The principal decides that. And honestly while I sympathise with your situation, I wouldn't be drawing the TC and the Dept on me in any situation.

So what you've got to look at is the bigger picture in your school. Is physics offered as a subject? Is there another teacher currently teaching physics? If so do they have another subject they can teach? If not, the principal will not be moving you into physics to suit you if they have nothing to give the other physics teacher. Same with maths. Also just say for instance you are moved into physics and maths in your school and another teacher is displaced and given another subject, who is going to teach Technology? Is there anyone on staff qualified to teach it or that has similar qualifications to yourself?

Honestly I can't see you being moved out of it anytime soon.

pinkbear

Hi Rainbowtrout,

The physics teacher only teaches physics (and junior science) and has at least ten years to retirement, and there are no other technology teachers in the school which is why I've been stuck in it for so long. I think I'm in it till retirement..... agh.... I hate the hands on work so much (and I know I'm terrible at it); but the other side is that the students love it so I have very relaxed and enthusiastic classes, and I know this certainly wouldn't be the case if I was teaching just maths. I have considered taking a year or two off so that it would force the school to get a new technology teacher, but it's a rather drastic solution, and there's no guarantee I'd be brought back into maths or physics.

I suppose it's good news that the TC don't have a say in time tabling in the school. At least my job or wages aren't in jeopardy. It's probably better not to highlight my situation to them or to the department.

Pinkbear

rainbowtrout

pinkbear wrote: »

Hi Rainbowtrout,

The physics teacher only teaches physics (and junior science) and has at least ten years to retirement, and there are no other technology teachers in the school which is why I've been stuck in it for so long. I think I'm in it till retirement..... agh.... I hate the hands on work so much (and I know I'm terrible at it); but the other side is that the students love it so I have very relaxed and enthusiastic classes, and I know this certainly wouldn't be the case if I was teaching just maths. I have considered taking a year or two off so that it would force the school to get a new technology teacher, but it's a rather drastic solution, and there's no guarantee I'd be brought back into maths or physics.

I suppose it's good news that the TC don't have a say in time tabling in the school. At least my job or wages aren't in jeopardy. It's probably better not to highlight my situation to them or to the department.

Pinkbear

I think you know your answer then. The physics teacher doesn't have another subject so you won't be getting physics for another 10 years. It may not be the ideal situation but having enthusiastic classes is half the battle. You could be put into maths and have the lowest stream, many of whom find maths difficult and don't want to do it, it will all be theory and no practical and you might find yourself wishing you were back in your technology class.

What else do you have on your timeable besides technology? I'd imagine even with a class in every year it doesn't take up 22 hours.

pinkbear

I have 2 of each junior class, and 1 of each senior class (including TY) so I am 100% technology. And yes, I totally realise that having happy enthusiastic classes in a great school, and my own room, and way more freedom than other subjects is a huge plus. If I actually liked and was any good at working with my hands, I'd be living the dream!

evolving_doors

As regards loosing your job/tc/cid. If/when the TC bring in a qualification requirement it will probably only apply to new/recent teachers so I would imagine you are safe enough... most things they bring in they allow for long timers like yourself.

Inspector Coptoor

Exactly

Happens in science all the time.

I'm "qualified" to teach LC biology and JC science.
I'm teaching chemistry for years and while I'd like to do a masters in chemistry at some stage for my own interest and benefit, apart from giving the TC €65 a year, I have no contact with them

man_no_plan

This thread is worth a read for anyone who's asking what subjects to pick for teaching.

So often people pick subjects they think will give a job rather than picking a subject they like. (I know its not the case with the op)

You have to like your second subject because it could well be your main one.

As for the op, I see it all the time, French and Spanish teacher with only spanish on their timetable wants to teach french! Other teacher has french only so cant put the anywhere else, not that you don't think they would be good at french or anything.

I know you're different with your tc quals and so on but the practicals are so creative. You can bring ib as much maths as you like. The piece is x+2y long, mark it out, electronics can be mathsy, angles and lines, slopes rise/run, gear ratios, coordinate geometry for cnc,....

pinkbear

I bring tons of maths into my classes, man_no_plan. And I love teaching the theory of it. The problem is the actual hands on work..... I just despise working with my hands.... I was one of those little kids who had no interest in hand making cards or cutting up paper, I just despise it. I was the nerd in the corner doing maths puzzles. I have mild dyspraxia so I have awkward ways of doing things, and I can't paint to save my life. But I love teaching, and I love the theory of it. When I was offered the job, it came as a total surprise as I had applied for a maths and science job, and I was put on the spot and passed a book of exam papers to check I would be able to teach anything on the course, which of course I am. I didn't realise there was a practical element to it at all. I actually had never even heard of the subject Technology in schools.

So it's not quite the same as the French / Spanish teacher example. I am a very academic person with 6 years theoretical training in university and no hands on training, teaching something that is probably about 30% practical. It's more like a language teacher with no interest in sports been sent out to teach PE.

The teaching council has recognised that my qualifications don't cover the craft element for my job. But going by what people here are saying it is the principal that gets the final say - not me, or the TC.

With all that said, my LC students get very good results, so my dislike of the practical element isn't affecting anyone else thankfully. (And I am very thankful for all that is good in my job!)

Pwpane

Pinkbear, remember this. You're a professional with a permanent job, and that is your school and your students. The principal's job is to manage the school but you're the expert as regards your teaching. So of course you have an input into what you teach, as professional teacher to professional manager.

Think out a course of action that could work, preferably more than one (e.g.a rota between you and the other teacher in physics). Think out the details, and how it will work over a few years. Then choose your time (end of Jan?), make an appointment and put your concerns and your proposals to your principal in a thoughtful and helpful way. It's not your business to choose classes for other teachers, but you could put forth possibilities and describe the advantages to yourself, the other teachers, students and the school (continuity of cover and choice in the timetable when there are several teachers for each subject, development of the physics dept (how?), what your academic strengths will bring to your subject esp when the curriculum changes, ideas you have like team planning, outings, promotion of physics to younger students, links with colleges, Young Scientist etc if you have the stomach for it.

Make the giving of maths or physics to you an advantage to the principal both in terms of timetabling and subject provision, and in terms of the school's development and reputation.

Don't overstay your welcome, leave it to the principal to think about it, ask to pencil in another meeting in a few weeks to further your combined ideas and be gracious in thanking them for their time and their listening. Make sure you get the second meeting, and if it's a no for next year be prepared with proposals for how that will actually facilitate the change for the following year.

jbombon

Hi,

my case is a little bit similar, I qualified in 2010 in France as an EAL teacher and taught that subject for two years in secondary schools there. I have a MA in English.
I then moved to England and taught Special Needs for a year, as that's where the jobs were.
I then filled in my application to register with the Irish TC. I have a conditional registration for English, but as you can imagine my applications for English teaching jobs have not been successful... Who wants to hire a French native as an English teacher?
I got 30 credits for French during my first year of BA, and passed a postgraduate Diploma in French as a foreign language last year. I thought I would be able to add French to my list of subjects, but the TC said that I should get 20 credits in French lit (by probably studying the same stuff I studied in secondary school in France, taught by a teacher who certainly won't be French and speak with an accent... sorry I'm rambling here but this is just driving me crazy!!! :-( ) in order to be able to have it as a second teaching subject.
I have been registered since January, and between then and the end of May I have had three substitute contracts (about 5-7 weeks each) in two different schools (one private, one community school).
Do you think it would be possible for me to be hired as a French teacher without having French as a registered subject? I have been applying to all the French jobs in the Dublin/Kildare area, and have not had any answers yet. I am trying to be positive, but this is all extremely stressful and frustrating! Do you think I'll find a job for French?

jbombon

I mean a fixed-term contract, or a maternity leave... I'm not naive enough to think I'll ever find a permanent job!

Naoko

jbombon wrote: »

Hi,

Do you think it would be possible for me to be hired as a French teacher without having French as a registered subject? I have been applying to all the French jobs in the Dublin/Kildare area, and have not had any answers yet. I am trying to be positive, but this is all extremely stressful and frustrating! Do you think I'll find a job for French?

If you're in the Dublin/Kildare area, you're near NUI Maynooth so why don't you just do four five-credit modules of French literature and get the Teaching Council recognition for French? It would cost about 3000 euro but you could get some of that back in tax relief and through the Marino refund of fees scheme. If the modules cover literature you've known since secondary school, as you say, then you could probably just rock up and get a pass grade in the exams even if you don't make all the lectures given by the non-French people with the accents...

rainbowtrout

Naoko wrote: »

If you're in the Dublin/Kildare area, you're near NUI Maynooth so why don't you just do four five-credit modules of French literature and get the Teaching Council recognition for French? It would cost about 3000 euro but you could get some of that back in tax relief and through the Marino refund of fees scheme. If the modules cover literature you've known since secondary school, as you say, then you could probably just rock up and get a pass grade in the exams even if you don't make all the lectures given by the non-French people with the accents...

Actually I've been doing physics this way through Maynooth for the last 2 years. 20 credits costs me €1977.

Naoko

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Actually I've been doing physics this way through Maynooth for the last 2 years. 20 credits costs me €1977.

Well that's even better. Is that before or after any refunds?

rainbowtrout

Naoko wrote: »

Well that's even better. Is that before or after any refunds?

Before.

That's the cost of four 5 credit modules done in one academic year and a student registration fee of some sort which is €100 I think.

A 5 credit module last year was €469. It was the same the year before.

jbombon

Naoko wrote: »

If the modules cover literature you've known since secondary school, as you say, then you could probably just rock up and get a pass grade in the exams even if you don't make all the lectures given by the non-French people with the accents...

I know I sound terribly snobbish when I say this... Sorry, I have nothing against the Irish education system... But having to go back to school to cover some things you might have done before in your native country is frustrating!

jbombon

Naoko wrote: »

If you're in the Dublin/Kildare area, you're near NUI Maynooth so why don't you just do four five-credit modules of French literature and get the Teaching Council recognition for French?

I have considered doing this, I have looked at the course, but I am already registered with DCU to study modules to address my shortfalls in English so at the moment I just don't have the time or the money to do a French course... I am hoping to do it in a year or two, but my real concern right now is could a principal hire me to teach French even if it isn't in my list of subjects?

vamos!

There are teachers teaching subjects other than their own. They are usually in the school already or hired for a French and Religion job when they are qualified in French and English. I don't know how you could be hired to teach French when your real subject is English. You are not likely to be hired as an English teacher and also given French hours. Apparently it is difficult to get French subs so you could be lucky. Would you not focus on qualifying in French instead of addressing shortfalls in English? I know it'd frustrating but I'm a qualified French teacher and would be very annoyed if an unqualified French native was hired ahead of me. I can't just turn up in France with my French degree and expect to be allowed teach English. The French department in Maynooth is very good. Believe it or not they have fairly good French accents. They even have PHDs in French!

jbombon

vamos! wrote: »

Would you not focus on qualifying in French instead of addressing shortfalls in English?

I would love to do that, but French can only be a second subject as I have only studied it for a year at undergraduate degree and passed a postgraduate diploma in teaching French as a foreign language... I have 90 credits in French only. so I'm going to address the shortfalls in the subject I am registered for first, and then do the French. I understand that it is frustrating for qualified teachers to see someone without the registered subject get a job, but I have a postgrad in French! The TC isn't happy because it does not have a big enough literature component... As if there was any French lit taught in French language classes! It is absolutely ridiculous.

evolving_doors

jbombon wrote: »

I have considered doing this, I have looked at the course, but I am already registered with DCU to study modules to address my shortfalls in English so at the moment I just don't have the time or the money to do a French course... I am hoping to do it in a year or two, but my real concern right now is could a principal hire me to teach French even if it isn't in my list of subjects?

In fairness though any literature completed in secondary wouldn't be the same as university level!

We always found it tricky to get subs for french... although the combination needed was usually french and another language.

Id say the time to create a good impression is during the orals in march/april... so sell the french. Theres always 'the needs of the school' which allows an unqualified teacher to teach if they cant get anyone, so if you showed that you are in the process of completing a few modules to get there it would show you are serious (about teaching french!).

English teachers are in oversupply , although you might get lucky given you have a unique combination.

Crazyteacher

Think of it this way , would you expect an English teacher to go over to teach English (lit) in France without having acquired a degree in English (lit) just because they are English? Even though they've read many books in English as they are English. Would that be fair on the students ? Even teachers of Irish need a full degree in Irish before they can teach it, it's not enough to be an Irish person or speaker of Irish. They still go through the same process.

jbombon

Crazyteacher wrote: »

Think of it this way , would you expect an English teacher to go over to teach English (lit) in France without having acquired a degree in English (lit) just because they are English? Even though they've read many books in English as they are English. Would that be fair on the students ? Even teachers of Irish need a full degree in Irish before they can teach it, it's not enough to be an Irish person or speaker of Irish. They still go through the same process.

Crazyteacher, I am talking about teaching French as a foreign language. I have a postgraduate diploma (it is actually the first year of a Masters' degree which in French gives you the equivalent to a postgrad) in teaching French as a foreign language as I have mentioned earlier in this thread... I am not stupid enough to believe you can teach a language only because I am a native. I am originally an EAL teacher with two years experience, and I am more than aware of the skills needed to teach a language that go way beyond what you learn when you learn your L1. All I am saying is that I do have a qualification, it just does not have enough lit in it to teach a language apparently.

Crazyteacher

jbombon wrote: »

Crazyteacher, I am talking about teaching French as a foreign language. I have a postgraduate diploma (it is actually the first year of a Masters' degree which in French gives you the equivalent to a postgrad) in teaching French as a foreign language as I have mentioned earlier in this thread... I am not stupid enough to believe you can teach a language only because I am a native. I am originally an EAL teacher with two years experience, and I am more than aware of the skills needed to teach a language that go way beyond what you learn when you learn your L1. All I am saying is that I do have a qualification, it just does not have enough lit in it to teach a language apparently.

Is it post primary/ secondary French you want to teach ?

jbombon

It is post primary French yes. Although if there was a position in a primary school to teach French I would also consider it, but I do not think French is taught at primary level by teachers registered at post primary level.
I wish to apologize for the tone of my previous post, I do not want to sound rude at all,but this whole thing is really starting to stress me out a little bit. Since no one wants to hire me for English, and rightly so since I have no experience teaching it, French is pretty much my only career prospect at the moment.

evolving_doors

most working language teachers teach two languages so the chances are if you want to apply to sub for a language teacher then they would probably be looking for two languages!

Have you any German/Spanish/Italian?

Crazyteacher

jbombon wrote: »

It is post primary French yes. Although if there was a position in a primary school to teach French I would also consider it, but I do not think French is taught at primary level by teachers registered at post primary level.
I wish to apologize for the tone of my previous post, I do not want to sound rude at all,but this whole thing is really starting to stress me out a little bit. Since no one wants to hire me for English, and rightly so since I have no experience teaching it, French is pretty much my only career prospect at the moment.

Not at all. It's very stressful for everyone. Definitely check in with Maynooth University. Also the open university has French credits you can add on and a lot or its online. UCD has a part time arts course too. Definitely keep applying for jobs and see what happens, you have a teaching council number so are entitled to apply just as anyone else with conditional registration. Some school might be lucky enough to get you as a native French speaker even check out the ETB's for teaching evening and or PLC classes too.