Bully Tactics By Vendors Solicitor

Timfy

Firstly, I have read the charter and am fully aware that I cannot solicit legal advice on the forum. However, I would really like some opinions on the following.

My parents, who live in the UK, put in a full price offer on a property in Ireland. It was to be their retirement home. The offer was accepted and deposits paid. My parents sold their UK residence and were preparing to head over.

The engineer then found planning boundary issues with the property in Ireland, as well as right of way queries. My parents were advised that this would take in the region of 3-6 months to clarify and cost around €3000.

When the vendors solicitor was asked to clarify the situation, he replied that his client was already talking to another purchaser, who had offered an extra €10,000. The tone of his letter was quite aggressive and it stated that my parents should sort out all planning issues out of their own pocket or there was no reason for his client not to go with the higher offer.

As my parents had paid a deposit through the sole auctioneer is there anything here that "smells fishy"

They have now lost the sale of their own property, sold all their furniture and have hefty legal bills, leaving them many thousands of sterling out of pocket and not through any fault of their own. I think that the vendors solicitor has possibly acted illegally, certainly underhandedly, as have the auctioneers who promised to take the house of the market when the deposit had been paid but never did.

Is there an argument for compensation here? I certainly feel that a complaint should be raised but I'm not sure how to proceed.

Once again, I am not looking for specific legal advice, but I do think that I have a genuine grievance here...

MarkAnthony

Offering simply practical advice, nowts sure until the contracts are signed.

I know it's bad enough in England but it's mental here. I really don't know why we don't adopt the situation in Scotland but I'm digressing.

Expect a lot more of the same.

Timfy

Hi MarkAnthony

Yes, I was rather afraid that this would be the case. However if an auctioneer states that a property is to be taken off the market on receipt of a deposit and then a higher offer is made and used to push my parents into accepting all liability for a house that is currently unsaleable as well as taking the financial hit it seems to me that something underhand is taking place... forgive my naivety in these matters :-)

P. Breathnach

What interests me is that the vendor's solicitor is in the frame. What sort of deposit have your parents paid? If it's a "booking deposit", then they have little chance of getting anywhere. If it is a deposit paid on signing a legal agreement to purchase, then it is worth exploring the matter further.

Any defect on title is likely to concern another purchaser just as it concerns your parents' solicitor.

Consider also the possibility that there is a game of bluff being played.

MarkAnthony

Timfy wrote: »

Hi MarkAnthony

Yes, I was rather afraid that this would be the case. However if an auctioneer states that a property is to be taken off the market on receipt of a deposit and then a higher offer is made and used to push my parents into accepting all liability for a house that is currently unsaleable as well as taking the financial hit it seems to me that something underhand is taking place... forgive my naivety in these matters :-)

I couldn't agree more, it's an adversarial system to be sure and completely one sided.

nuac

You haven't stated whether the purchaser and vendor have actually signed contracts.

That should have been done before any arrangements made re disposal of UK property etc.

Timfy

Hi nuac
Apologies for not being a bit clearer... everything is at the signing contracts stage, both here and in the UK.
The vendors solicitor now refuses to forward the contract for the house in Ireland unless my parents take on all the issues with the planning boundaries at their own cost. My parents have put off signing the UK contracts until the Irish sale is clarified. The Irish solicitors own words were " not a bother, I'll sell it anyway... and a a better price" Originally the vendor was to sort the planning issues, with money held in escrow until the planning was put right.
My parents are in their 70s and this has destroyed them.
With regards to deposits, they have put down 5% of a 15% deposit, the remainder being due on signing the contract.

phater phagan

Timfy, sorry, but buying properties in Ireland can be a nightmare. There doesn't appear to be any regulatory bodies, or ombudsmen here to oversee and reprimand bad performance by the professions in Real Estate. The Law Society has the responsibility for performance standards in that profession, and only the client of the solicitor can make a formal complaint against them. It might be a good idea to contact your parents solicitor to make a formal complaint first to him with proviso that you will subsequently take a formal complaint to the Law Society, if you do not get specific performance from him. That sometimes work. Good luck

Ken.

phater phagan wrote: »

Timfy, sorry, but buying properties in Ireland can be a nightmare. There doesn't appear to be any regulatory bodies, or ombudsmen here to oversee and reprimand bad performance by the professions in Real Estate. The Law Society has the responsibility for performance standards in that profession, and only the client of the solicitor can make a formal complaint against them. It might be a good idea to contact your parents solicitor to make a formal complaint first to him with proviso that you will subsequently take a formal complaint to the Law Society, if you do not get specific performance from him. That sometimes work. Good luck

Wow, I guess the PSRA don't count then as a regulatory body for real estate agents then. http://www.psr.ie/website/npsra/npsraweb.nsf/page/index-en

phater phagan

I was unaware of that organisation. However, their presence is seldom noticed in the public arena. Not sure what they actually do.

Pat Mustard

Timfy wrote: »

The engineer then found planning boundary issues with the property in Ireland, as well as right of way queries. My parents were advised that this would take in the region of 3-6 months to clarify and cost around €3000.

What is the nature of the problem here? Is it a boundary issue or a planning issue or both?

Boundary rectification does not usually take that long, assuming that people are reasonable. What happens is that maps can be incorrect, so people agree to transfer the necessary parts of their paper title, so that the paper title will match the boundaries on the ground. This need cooperative neighbours, a competent engineer and conveyancing work to be carried out by solicitors acting on the behalf of the relevant parties. The expense quoted sounds high. I would think that many solicitors would advise purchasers that boundary rectification should be fixed by the vendor at his own expense.

I suppose that planning applications can take months. I'm not certain what engineers charge in that regard.

The other question that arises is as to what type of property is in sale. Is it a site without planning permission, to be sold subject to the purchaser making the application for planning permission?

If it is a house, one might expect the seller to sell the house with full planning permission in accordance with Law Society general conditions of sale.

Timfy wrote: »

They have now lost the sale of their own property, sold all their furniture and have hefty legal bills, leaving them many thousands of sterling out of pocket and not through any fault of their own.

If your parents received legal bills for several thousands of euro in relation to a property transaction that never progressed to the signing of contracts, then they could speak to their solicitors about those fees.

Timfy wrote: »

I think that the vendors solicitor has possibly acted illegally, certainly underhandedly as have the auctioneers who promised to take the house of the market when the deposit had been paid but never did.

What law do you think was broken here?

Timfy wrote: »

The vendors solicitor now refuses to forward the contract for the house in Ireland unless my parents take on all the issues with the planning boundaries at their own cost.

What have your parents' solicitors advised in relation to all of this?

Also see s.51 Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Act 2009:

51.— (1) Subject to subsection (2), no action shall be brought to enforce any contract for the sale or other disposition of land unless the agreement on which such action is brought, or some memorandum or note of it, is in writing and signed by the person against whom the action is brought or that person’s authorised agent.

(2) Subsection (1) does not affect the law relating to part performance or other equitable doctrines.

(3) For the avoidance of doubt, but subject to an express provision in the contract to the contrary, payment of a deposit in money or money’s worth is not necessary for an enforceable contract.

nuac

You are better off discussing this with your Irish solicitor

Timfy

Hi all, thanks for the detailed responses... I will update and address you questions tomorrow.

johnnyskeleton

Timfy wrote: »

They have now lost the sale of their own property, sold all their furniture and have hefty legal bills, leaving them many thousands of sterling out of pocket and not through any fault of their own. I think that the vendors solicitor has possibly acted illegally, certainly underhandedly, as have the auctioneers who promised to take the house of the market when the deposit had been paid but never did.

One point that I would make is that people pay a solicitor to advise them as to whether to proceed with a transaction or not. Their solicitor was paid to sniff out any planning problems and she/he did just that. The vendor has now backed off. Sounds like they got great value from their solicitor as she/he saved them from making a potentially disasterous mistake.

It is a common misconception that if you pay a solicitor to advise you on the purchase of a house and then, because of the solicitor's good work results in you not going ahead with the purchase, that money is wasted. It is not. It is a saving.

Having said that, I don't mean to detract from the undoubtedly stressful time that your parents are having. But if they were not so advised by the solicitor, they would face even greater stress in a few months'/year's time.

JimsAlterEgo

the law society might like to hear about the behavior of the vendors solicitor

Timfy

Morning all! It progresses!

Firstly, to address The Mustard...

What is the nature of the problem here? Is it a boundary issue or a planning issue or both?

It is both a planning and a boundary issue... the original planning application (2001) for the house included sections of land that did not actually belong to the Vendor! It is a standard bungalow. Planning permission was also sought and granted on an adjacent part of the same land in 2011, however this was based on the first property not being built. Drawings submitted did not show the original building... how that got passed I'll never understand! Just to clarify, this second property was never built.

If your parents received legal bills for several thousands of euro in relation to a property transaction that never progressed to the signing of contracts, then they could speak to their solicitors about those fees.

Again, I apologise for my terminology, when I say legal bills I am actually lumping in all other costs accrued, engineers reports for both the UK and Irish properties etc.

With regards to laws broken... I really don't know. I assumed that if a property is put on the market then it at least has to be saleable with regards to planning, ownership etc


But wait!!! This gets better!

The auctioneer contacted the vendor direct and showed him a copy of his own solicitors letter. It appears that the solicitor was acting completely without instruction. There is no other offer on the property and the vendor had no idea on the planning issue, being advised that everything was in order (I must just add at this point that the vendor is an elderly gentleman)

The vendor was mortified! He has now applied for the retrospective planning at his own cost. To speed things up he has also offered my parents a free housekeeper agreement so as they can move in whilst everything else is being sorted out.

I am even more angry at the Vendors solicitor now and would love to shake him warmly by the throat! My mother in her innocence asked me if he acted that way because they were English. I've lived here long enough to know better than that and told her as much... but I have yet to come up with a reason for this solicitor going "rogue" and trying to scupper the deal!

P. Breathnach

Timfy wrote: »

... but I have yet to come up with a reason for this solicitor going "rogue" and trying to scupper the deal!

It's good that things have taken a turn for the better. I hope that your parents can also tidily sort out the sale of their own place.

You'll probably never know why the solicitor behaved as he did. I have seen solicitors take charge of situations in a way that exceeds their instructions: in one case I attributed it to arrogance, a belief that he knew better than his client (the client did know what he wanted, and changed solicitors).

In your parents' situation, it might simply be that the solicitor wanted to make his own life easier by not taking on the work of tidying up the issues that related to title, and simply played too much hardball.

JBG2011

Something here doesn't quite add up: while I know many mad and idiocentric solicitors who are well capable of going on crazy solo runs this appears to be off the wall stuff altogether and I would doubt the providence of what the vendor himself is saying. There may have been some element of instruction or encouragement from the vendor to his solicitor.

It's not uncommon for people to instruct their solicitor to do something, have it blow up in their face, and then try to distance themselves from it all by saying the solicitor acted outside of his/her authority.

The solicitor may well be mad and have acted outside of his authority here, but I suspect there's more to it than that. The vendor may not be entirely straight with you.