IJF moves to prohibit combat sports crossover

Mellor

IJF making moves to ban IJF ranked athletes from competing in other sports without permission. Feels a bit like a protection move, but I can see it doing more harm than good and alienating rather than protecting.

But I'm not overly familiar with the state of international judo, and why they might feel this is necessary. Any of our more clued in judoka have an opinion on the ban?


http://fightsportasia.com/2014/11/17/judo-or-judont-officials-move-to-prohibit-combat-sports-crossover/

Doug Cartel

I thought it was a hoax at first, but then Travis Stevens confirmed it on twitter.

I have no idea what the motivation is, but I'm having trouble thinking of a positive reason for doing it. Back in the early days of judo, there was a ban on fighting for money, but I would see that as an amateur vs. professional thing. Does anyone know if any other amateur sports put restrictions like this on their competitors?

Mellor

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Does anyone know if any other amateur sports put restrictions like this on their competitors?

The GAA used to have a ban on player competing in "foreign" sports. But that was lifted in 1971. This current move feels like a similar kind of ignorance.


Sumo wrestlers must follow a very restrictive and traditional lifestyle. Which probably includes competing in other sports. But that's more a case Sumo is a full time lifestyle, rather than a outright ban on other sports.

Doug Cartel

Mellor wrote: »

The GAA used to have a ban on player competing in "foreign" sports. But that was lifted in 1971. This current move feels like a similar kind of ignorance.

I had a feeling that would come up, but that rule was a product of the very early days of the GAA when it was a very political organisation, and we live in very different times now.

As for the sumos, aside from the tradition and all that, they are professionals and are being paid to do sumo and nothing else.

Mellor

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I had a feeling that would come up, but that rule was a product of the very early days of the GAA when it was a very political organisation, and we live in very different times now.

As for the sumos, aside from the tradition and all that, they are professionals and are being paid to do sumo and nothing else.

Agree completely.
The GAA ban was introduced in 1902. Politically motivated to the extreme. It should never have hung around as long as it did though.

And yeah, sumo's simply have no time.
Sumo gotta sumo

Peetrik

Really dislike when organisations do this. Whatever the professed reasons for doing this, it is always really about politics and ultimately only hinders whichever sport the organisation is supposed to be serving.

Doug Cartel

I still haven't seen any mention of this on any official IJF sources. I am getting suspicious again.

Doug Cartel

The following apparently went up on the ijf site but was taken down. (I never saw it when it was live)

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Awww.intjudo.eu%2FNews%2Fcikk3286&oq=cache%3Awww.intjudo.eu%2FNews%2Fcikk3286&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i58.10311j0j4&client=ms-android-sonymobile&sourceid=chrome-mobile&espv=1&ie=UTF-8

In case the cached version disappears, the English text is:

Dear Judokas,

With regards to your worries towards the IJF decision to limit the migration of judokas to other sports and disciplines, I would like to make the following clarifications: IJF, the Continental Unions, the National Federations, as well as the Judo clubs made serious efforts in these past years on all levels, in order to support and participate in the development reform of our sport.

The International Judo Federation and its Member Federations have extensively invested in training and competition programs, setting up of structures, equipment donation and media coverage. All these investments must be preserved, like in any other sports, having in their rules a return toward the formative structures.

This extensive development program has an impact on the complexity of the competition program, the media and marketing strategy, the promotion, the IJF solidarity programs worth several million dollars every year, the Sports Department, the Refereeing Department, the Financial Department, Judo for Children, Judo for Schools, Judo for Peace, as well as prize money for athletes and coaches, all of this as part of an idea of radical change of our sport, reflected by the inclusion of Judo, for the first time in history, in the third category of Olympic Sports among the five existing categories and meanwhile having as major aim the introduction of the Team Event in the Judo Competition at the Tokyo 2020 Olympic Games.

All our achievements, as well as our objective to have the team event for the first time in Tokyo 2020, strengthens our conviction that we must maintain our sport in a homogenous, unitary, clean and integral community, in order to achieve all our other objectives for the following period. Judo wishes to preserve its heritage.

It is important to remember that when wrestling was temporarily removed from the Olympic program, one of the reasons was also the fact that this sport assimilated the MMA community, Grappling and other disciplines.

IJF does not exclude collaboration and partnership with other combat sports disciplines, but these must be carried out within the limits of mutual advantages and without the migration of athletes from one community to the other. Some agreements were established with federations that specify the conditions of participation.

In this period of reforms and development of Judo, other sports and disciplines noticed our evolution and they showed to be more and more interested in attracted our athletes ready formed, due to the investments made by their clubs, their National Federations, their Continental Unions, as well as IJF, in order to benefit from their services and to generate financial benefits in the interests of certain leaders from other sports, as well as in order to promote the image of these sports through the performances of our athletes, achieved with a lot of efforts and hard work in the Judo competitions at all levels, as well as the Olympic Games. Moreover, private bodies of match organization exploit the work of our federations without any compensation.

At the same time, the migration of athletes to several sports would only represent a spiritual contamination of our sport once these athletes come back to Judo, a sport whose spirit and values were acquired and transmitted through generations, from Jigoro Kano onwards. We should not forget the history of Judo and the merits of all the heroes and legends of our sport.

Freedom is one of the supreme values of humanity and each of us is free to choose a path in life, just like I myself did, when I chose to immigrate to a free world in my youth, but we should not forget that before Freedom, Honor and Loyalty are primary values of any community or generation. The principles and values of our sport are more than enough for individual perfection, on a sports level as well as on the formational level for society.

The values of our sport, together with the Honor and Loyalty to Judo mean a lot more than a few extra dollars for which we could sell our identity and than a bleeding on inhuman face on various podiums of other sports that never made any efforts for the education and sports preparation of the athletes involved.

I can reassure you that the IJF decisions always serve the interests of our sport and our athletes, and that they preserve and continuously develop the values of Judo and the welfare and integrity of our community.

I consider that for all of us, Judo is the true path in life, in sport and in society.
We have to keep Judo strong and united!

With friendship,

Marius Vizer

pablohoney87

The statement reeks of everything people find wrong with some of the more whacky martial arts. Preserving heritage and continuously diluting down what you are allowed to use.

I hope they see sense soon and realise this is all just bad for the sport and the art itself.

Doug Cartel

pablohoney87 wrote: »

I hope they see sense soon and realise this is all just bad for the sport and the art itself.

I think it's worth baring in mind that the statement was only up for a few hours on the website. I get the feeling that this is not a step that they are entirely sure of themselves.

Mellor

pablohoney87 wrote: »

The statement reeks of everything people find wrong with some of the more whacky martial arts. Preserving heritage and continuously diluting down what you are allowed to use.

Agreed. If that was posted without reference to IJF or judo it would be dismissed as a load of fairy nonsense.

Imagine a organisation, "Irish jutso-chun", posted about an open grappling comp but excluded people who studied judo/bjj/mma as they would pollute the comp. It'd be entirely ridiculed.

I do agree that the fact it was taken down, plus the fact that it was a less than direct response means there's probably some internal conflict regarding this.

Doug Cartel

Well when you have the head of the federation trying to distance it from MMA and you have the one of the main competitions, the British Open, being sponsored by the UFC, it really starts to look like something is up.

pearsquasher

It's interesting to me this idea of "keeping judo pure". I can see both sides of the argument. Sure, the freedom to modify and integrate is very enticing and that's the power of MMA - in the context of it being a sport.

But while judo has been sportified over the decades it also has other equally-important-to-some attributes like tradition and lineage and whether people like it or not, that means something to some folks. Not everything has to be holistic, free-for-all, open, up-for-grabs.... it's ok. In the end, judo does contain the full range of personality types and the good guys and gals will find their place.

Doug Cartel

If tradition and lineage were actually important to them, they would not be going on about what category judo appears in the Olympics. The founder of judo, Kano, was against the over emphasis of judo as a sport and I don't think the idea of changing it to fit with the Olympics would have sat well with him.

He was against his students taking part in pro wresteling and I think prize-fighting, but he was in favour of them taking part in other styles.

Mellor

pearsquasher wrote: »

It's interesting to me this idea of "keeping judo pure". I can see both sides of the argument. Sure, the freedom to modify and integrate is very enticing and that's the power of MMA - in the context of it being a sport.

But while judo has been sportified over the decades it also has other equally-important-to-some attributes like tradition and lineage and whether people like it or not, that means something to some folks. Not everything has to be holistic, free-for-all, open, up-for-grabs.... it's ok. In the end, judo does contain the full range of personality types and the good guys and gals will find their place.

Nobody is asking judo to integrate with MMA, or any grappling art.

And allowing judoka to compete in other grsppling comps doesn't affect the lineage and tradition. You haven't really said how it does?

pearsquasher

And allowing judoka to compete in other grsppling comps doesn't affect the lineage and tradition. You haven't really said how it does?

Just speaking generally - i believe the article linked to above from Marius Vizer gives insight into this..

Doug Cartel

pearsquasher wrote: »

i believe the article linked to above from Marius Vizer gives insight into this..

Come on let's give this a real try... How does Marius Vizer's post give insight into this? If you can be specific it would help push the conversation forward.

Mellor

pearsquasher wrote: »

Just speaking generally - i believe the article linked to above from Marius Vizer gives insight into this..

But how does it, in general or otherwise?
How the traditions and lineage that Vizer mentions at risk? How does this ban protect those traditions.

We can set aside the Olympic stuff for now.

MartyMcFly84

They say they want to keep the sport "pure". Then change the rules whenever it suits them instead of working on existing traditional techniques...

I have decided to go back training Judo once my rehab is complete but the rule changes and now this makes me go :rolleyes:

Its seem motivated by fear and insecurity. They seem afraid people we find a more complete art and leave Judo. They tackle this by banning existing techniques and further limit the art and make it less complete. Its seems like they are just shooting themselves in the foot.

conor678

I know this isn't directly relevant to this thread but I find the recent rule changes in judo regarding leg grabs and double grabbing the lapel very frustrating and in the long term negative to the sport. With the recent popularity of mma and bjj and to some extent wrestling a lot of people from my experience have shown an increased interest in judo. That's what I have experienced in my club in England. We're getting a lot of people cross training and showing confusion and frustration when told they can't grab the leg or double grab the lapel.

I think martial arts should be trying to embrace this renewed interest in stand up grappling from the success of the ufc and to some extent Ronda rousey but I feel these sort of short sighted rules and rule changes will ultimately drive people away from the sport to more 'real life applicable' grappling.

My thoughts anyway

Doug Cartel

conor678 wrote: »

I know this isn't directly relevant to this thread but I find the recent rule changes in judo regarding leg grabs and double grabbing the lapel very frustrating and in the long term negative to the sport.

I didn't like the rule change, but part of me felt that if leg grabs were important to you, you could always do a bit of BJJ or wrestling on the side. Now we have this decree, and while I realise it only affects high level players entering international competitions, I do feel that it sends a message that cross training is not seen as a good thing.

conor678

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I didn't like the rule change, but part of me felt that if leg grabs were important to you, you could always do a bit of BJJ or wrestling on the side. Now we have this decree, and while I realise it only affects high level players entering international competitions, I do feel that it sends a message that cross training is not seen as a good thing.

I do cross train in bjj and a bit of wrestling but being based in the UK the vast majority of stand up grappling is judo.

I see were you're coming from i just feel that judo should jump on the bandwagon of the new popularity in grappling not shun it.

Also in terms of leg grabs i am not talking double legging people but more the odd ankle or leg pick to complete a throw or trip. Sorry don't know the Japanese term for the double leg

conor678

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I didn't like the rule change, but part of me felt that if leg grabs were important to you, you could always do a bit of BJJ or wrestling on the side. Now we have this decree, and while I realise it only affects high level players entering international competitions, I do feel that it sends a message that cross training is not seen as a good thing.

I do cross train in bjj and a bit of wrestling but being based in the UK the vast majority of stand up grappling is judo.

I see were you're coming from i just feel that judo should jump on the bandwagon of the new popularity in grappling not shun it.

Also in terms of leg grabs i am not talking double legging people but more the odd ankle or leg pick to complete a throw or trip. Sorry don't know the Japanese term for the double leg

Doug Cartel

I actually don't think you see where I'm coming from.

If I had my way there would be leg grabs in judo. After the ban came in, I didn't like it, but felt that at least people had the option of training somewhere else without dropping judo completely. Now it feels like the IJF are trying to close that option down as well.

conor678

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I actually don't think you see where I'm coming from.

If I had my way there would be leg grabs in judo. After the ban came in, I didn't like it, but felt that at least people had the option of training somewhere else without dropping judo completely. Now it feels like the IJF are trying to close that option down as well.

Sorry now i see. Totally agree with you. I share your frustrations and do mix and match my training.

Also i think this is just one of many examples of how some martial arts can become overly conservative and closed minded within itself.

conor678

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I actually don't think you see where I'm coming from.

If I had my way there would be leg grabs in judo. After the ban came in, I didn't like it, but felt that at least people had the option of training somewhere else without dropping judo completely. Now it feels like the IJF are trying to close that option down as well.

Sorry now i see. Totally agree with you. I share your frustrations and do mix and match my training.

Also i think this is just one of many examples of how some martial arts can become overly conservative and closed minded within itself.

Doug Cartel

BJJ EE stirring the pot again...

Now the powerful French Judo federation which is run by the IJF, has decided to offer to counter the growing number of Judokas migrating to MMA practitioners by creating a new sport: “Mixed JuJitsu Arts”.

http://www.bjjee.com/articles/judo-federation-counters-migration-to-mma-by-creating-mja-mixed-jujitsu-arts/

hurpederp

That sounds ridiculous, but they were correct last time.

Doug Cartel

Yeah, I thought the last one was a hoax and was wrong. There is also this report on it http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/sport/la-federation-de-judo-lance-un-concurrent-dans-les-jambes-du-mma_1625939.html, but it is in French.

just-joe

Related article from Olympic bronze medalist Ronda Rousey http://www.bjjee.com/featured/ronda-rousey-on-new-ijf-rule-bullsht-politics-is-going-to-destroy-judo/

(This is why I didn't go to the olympics.)



In regards to no leg grabs: I have been watching a fair bit of judo lately, and while I hadn't been watching a ton when leg grabs were still possible, it seems like judo now is relatively upright and people are aiming for hip, shoulder, and leg throws. I think this is good as before there was a lot of negativity and too much grappling for a bear hug or wrestling style leg grab.

As Doug has kinda suggested, if you want to do leg grabs, do something else. If you want to do judo, then throw people.

I don't know if its perfect, perhaps it would have been good to keep the counter leg-grab in, but I don't think no leg grabs is bad.

(Also, as an aside, I think the score always beats a penalty rule is quite a good one)

What think ye?

paulol

This sounds like what happened in many of the other martial arts. The changes they make and rules they create are made to show the general public a distinction between them and the next guy. If judo did not do this then they would not be able to get included as an olympic sport that was different to wrestling.

In the same vein South Korean World Taekwondo Federation made it's sport TKD more kicking oriented so as to show it was different to boxing and had another dynamics involved that helped it get ahead of Kickboxing and Shotokan Karate who were also biting at their heels.

So this rule by the IJF is a way to protect their patch. What will change big group thinking is when a large group of people on the ground (pun) walk away and make a point (pun) of the reasons they had to make that stand (another pun).