How to tell if wall is load bearing?

El_Dangeroso

We're looking at a house at the moment and it was built in the 1980's where for some reason there is a kitchen and a separate dining room of equal size, both on their own are too small, it's crying out to knock the wall between and make a decent sized kitchen diner.

Now because it was built in the 80's all the walls separating the rooms are brick, so you can't do the 'knock on the wall' trick to determine what's load-bearing.

Are there any rules of thumb for what walls are load bearing? Obviously we will be employing a reputable builder to do this work, but before we go sale agreed we'd like an indication that this is possible.

The layout of the house is four rooms downstairs, and a cross of walls in between, top left quadrant is kitchen, top right diner, bottom left hall and bottom right sitting room.

I know it's a long shot but is there absolutely any way for a lay person to get an indication?

loyatemu

get an engineer. If it is load-bearing you'll need to put in a girder to replace the bit you remove but it's probably still doable.

Volvoair

get a qualified builder/engineer ,if knock a load bearing wall,without supporting the load above, the consequences could be very serious.

El_Dangeroso

Yeah, thought as much, thanks guys.

Two further questions, could I ask the structural engineer when I get a survey done?

Also, if it is load bearing, how much would that work typically run at, ballpark? (or is it one of those how long is a piece of string sort of things?)

cpoh1

If there are joists running perpendicular to the wall overhead then its load bearing and will need bracing with an RSJ.

This can be done in two ways, fully recessed (expensive) and below the ceiling level (less expensive), the latter less cosmetically desireable.

A handy builder can do this for you without needing an engieers sign-off, had a wall down recently in my place and including RSJ and finishing it cost roughly €2k.

cpoh1

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Yeah, thought as much, thanks guys.

Two further questions, could I ask the structural engineer when I get a survey done?

Also, if it is load bearing, how much would that work typically run at, ballpark? (or is it one of those how long is a piece of string sort of things?)

Engineer who surveys the house will answer your question no bother, just ask him before he visits the house!

Woodville56

Thinking about a similar project on recently purchased property. Got the advice of engineer while doing structural survey and like earlier poster here he reckons the job can be done quite easily by replacing load bearing wall with supporting beam - is this the same as an RSJ ? We weren't thinking of taking away the full length of wall, just removing the door and making a wider walk thru between kitchen and dining area - would this work or better to go for full wall removal ?
Can the below ceiling not be made cosmetically acceptable ? I'm not to inclined to go for the recessed option if it's significantly most costly or if it involves much more "deconstruction" work ?

El_Dangeroso

cpoh1 wrote: »

If there are joists running perpendicular to the wall overhead then its load bearing and will need bracing with an RSJ.

This can be done in two ways, fully recessed (expensive) and below the ceiling level (less expensive), the latter less cosmetically desireable.

A handy builder can do this for you without needing an engieers sign-off, had a wall down recently in my place and including RSJ and finishing it cost roughly €2k.

Was the €2k for recessed RSJ or ceiling height?

OREGATO

We got a few quotes for doing exactly that, we have a massive space now between the dining room and the kitchen - highly recommend doing it.

The quotes we got were roughly in the €2,000 to €2,500. We got it done at ceiling level and we don't mind that it's there. Some people may want it recessed but this is more expensive.

El_Dangeroso

OREGATO wrote: »

We got a few quotes for doing exactly that, we have a massive space now between the dining room and the kitchen - highly recommend doing it.

The quotes we got were roughly in the €2,000 to €2,500. We got it done at ceiling level and we don't mind that it's there. Some people may want it recessed but this is more expensive.

Yea ceiling height will probably be fine tbh. Just wondering if the expense diff is huge or not.

ted1

I went for the recessed approach, really makes the room one, no box breaking up the room.

El_Dangeroso

ted1 wrote: »

I went for the recessed approach, really makes the room one, no box breaking up the room.

How much did it cost if you don't mind me asking?

cpoh1

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Was the €2k for recessed RSJ or ceiling height?

Ceiling height, we were enlargening a bedroom and werent too fussed, if it was a living area I would have recessed it to be honest although you are talking anouth €1500 on top, lots more intrusive!

ted1

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

How much did it cost if you don't mind me asking?

About 2,400. It's about a 12 foot span.

Also forgot to say on of the tell tales signs of a supporting wall is if the floorboards upstairs run the same direction as the wall, the beams will be perpendicular yo the biards and hence resting in the wall

cpoh1

ted1 wrote: »

About 2,400. It's about a 12 foot span.

Also forgot to say on of the tell tales signs of a supporting wall is if the floorboards upstairs run the same direction as the wall, the beams will be perpendicular yo the biards and hence resting in the wall

Was that an upstairs or downstairs wall ted?

Downstairs will be trickier because you have no access to the joists from above like in the attic.

OREGATO

On a side note, from our experiences of doing this, I thought I'd just share some other things when getting this done which might be helpful/relevant.

We got it done fairly quickly after we had moved in, reason being is that it is a big piece of work and causes a lot of dust (in our case anyway!)

The guys who did the work, did put covers up but for the kitchen and dining room, we kept the rooms as cleared as possible so that we didn't have to pack up everything when they came such as dining room tables and chairs and other stuff. We used duct tape to cover all of the cabinets to make sure that no dust crept in (it still does!), our new fridge was left in the hall way and didn't make it to it's final destination for at least 2 months after we moved in.

I'm sure you probably already know this one, but obviously depending on the floors you already have in both rooms and making a kitchen and dining room as one, you will probably need to factor in the floors you put in. We had carpet in the dining room and lino in the kitchen, we were going for tiles and the cost of the tiles and fitting added up to well over €1,500 (you could probably do it cheaper if you went for a different floor or tiles) - So just something to think about when you're getting the work done. Having the floor up meant we were able to get a plumber in to put a line for the fridge for water as well before the tiler came.

Aside from that, the knocking down of the wall took 1 full day, the guys started at 8am and finished at 6pm. They came back the next day to plaster over the RSJ and general clean up.

Carawaystick

If there's floorboards upstairs, the nails will show the direction of the joists.
A wall parallel to these downstaies is *unlikely* to be load bearing, while a wall perpendicular is *likely* to be load bearing.

Just so you'll have a rough idea before the engineer checks

ted1

cpoh1 wrote: »

Was that an upstairs or downstairs wall ted?

Downstairs will be trickier because you have no access to the joists from above like in the attic.

It was downstairs, there was no need to access from upstairs

Victor

cpoh1 wrote: »

If there are joists running perpendicular to the wall overhead then its load bearing and will need bracing with an RSJ.

Note that this isn't the only test for a load bearing wall. It won't cover cases where there it supports just more walls, the roof or if htere are beams.