Help with insurance fraud

retro:electro

Currently have a thread in motors about this but just need to know a few more things so I said I would post here too. So I sold my car two weeks ago and stupidly left an old insurance disc in the glove box and the guy who bought the car from me was using it as his. He was involved in an accident yesterday and left the scene of the crash after the other person he crashed into started to take down details.
My insurance company rang me earlier and said they received a solicitors letter saying I was involved in an accident yesterday. I've contacted the guards since and everything is okay they know I have no responsibility as I sent the log book away two weeks ago and he is now the owner. What will happen to him now? He had no tax or insurance or nct, will he also be done for impersonating another driver? My blood is boiling at the fact that he did this! I have his phone number and address here as I took them down from the log book at the time so I passed them onto the guards there.

coylemj

Did the other guy give your name at the scene or did you become 'involved' simply because of the fact that your insurance disc was on the windscreen?

Either way, it's nothing to do with you at this stage. Let the Gardai deal with it.

MarkAnthony

Not sure we're allowed to help with that!

retro:electro

coylemj wrote: »

Did the other guy give your name at the scene or did you become 'involved' simply because of the fact that your insurance disc was on the windscreen?

Either way, it's nothing to do with you at this stage. Let the Gardai deal with it.

Ya he didn't actually give my details which is what I initially thought, I just became involved because of the disc and whatever details were taken down. Ya I want to move on from it now just find it interesting to know what will happen to him now.

MarkAnthony

anna080 wrote: »

Ya he didn't actually give my details which is what I initially thought, I just became involved because of the disc and whatever details were taken down. Ya I want to move on from it now just find it interesting to know what will happen to him now.

Guards may need you in court then you can find out

Kristopherus

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Not sure we're allowed to help with that!

Why? Could you elaborate. please?

MarkAnthony

Kristopherus wrote: »

Why? Could you elaborate. please?

It was a joke based on the double meaning of the title of the thread.

retro:electro

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Guards may need you in court then you can find out

For what exactly?

MarkAnthony

anna080 wrote: »

For what exactly?

They may need you to prove the issue with the disc, every element must be proved but I'm not a lawyer so I could very well be wrong (about them needing you). If you can find out when the case is you can go along anyway and watch - again at least you'll know what happened then.

retro:electro

MarkAnthony wrote: »

They may need you to prove the issue with the disc, every element must be proved but I'm not a lawyer so I could very well be wrong (about them needing you). If you can find out when the case is you can go along anyway and watch - again at least you'll know what happened then.

I see. Thanks

retro:electro

The person just text me and said the guards took the car off him and he can't get it back; I said I don't care and don't contact me again. He must still have my number. Hope I don't hear from him again.

coylemj

anna080 wrote: »

The person just text me and said the guards took the car off him and he can't get it back; I said I don't care and don't contact me again. He must still have my number. Hope I don't hear from him again.

What was he expecting you to do?

He had no insurance, he will be prosecuted for that and also for leaving the scene and not exchanging details as he's obliged to do by S.106 of the Road Traffic Act. Neither of those charges require you to give evidence so I would be very surprised if the Gardai called on you

retro:electro

coylemj wrote: »

What was he expecting you to do?

He had no insurance, he will be prosecuted for that and also for leaving the scene and not exchanging details as he's obliged to do by S.106 of the Road Traffic Act. Neither of those charges require you to give evidence so I would be very surprised if the Gardai called on you

I know! Crazy. What an arse.

coylemj

It will be hard to pin anything on him for using your insurance disc so while I appreciate that you claim he was 'passing off' your disc as representing his (non-existent) insurance cover, it won't be worthwhile pursuing that, given he's in enough trouble with the S.106 (hit and run) and no insurance charges.

JimsAlterEgo

OP might be needed to say disc wasnt left on windscreen but was recovered from glove compartment. Intentionally using someone elses insurnance to me is far more serious than simply not taking down a disk.

coylemj

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

OP might be needed to say disc wasnt left on windscreen but was recovered from glove compartment. Intentionally using someone elses insurnance to me is far more serious than simply not taking down a disk.

The guy can claim his wife put the disc in the windscreen holder and he never noticed.

NUTLEY BOY

You will probably have no involvement.

NOT LEGAL ADVICE - just a view on how I would think about this ;

1. Did I cancel the insurance on the sold car ? When ?

2 Did I return the CERTIFICATE OF INSURANCE to my insurers after I sold the car ?

3. Do I have a copy of the draft / cheque used to buy my car ?

4. Did I give the buyer a receipt for the car ? If so, do I have a copy ?

5. Did I get the RF200 or certificate completed ? When ? Do I have a copy ?


These items are the ones that I would want to get clear to disconnect myself completely from any potential liabilities or responsibilities especially if the new owner has no insurance.

retro:electro

I didn't cancel the insurance policy I just transferred it onto the car im using now, the policy number remained the same. I asked them should I send back the old disc and they said there was no need to send it back (I should have burned it though that was my bad) He bought the car using cash so I have no proof of payment unfortunately. I posted the log book immediately and he is now the responsible owner.

NUTLEY BOY

anna080 wrote: »

I didn't cancel the insurance policy I just transferred it onto the car im using now, the policy number remained the same. I asked them should I send back the old disc and they said there was no need as it was out of date anyways. He bought the car using cash so I have no proof of payment unfortunately. I posted the log book immediately and he is now the responsible owner.

What did you do with the certificate as distinct from the disc ?. What I am after is clarity as to whether or not there was a current certificate in existence covering the registration number of your "old" car at the date of the accident ?

If the certificate was returned to the insurers that should be alright.

If the certificate was not returned to insurers but had expired prior to the accident that should not be a problem either.

BTW the mere act of signing and posting the log book to the motor taxation / registration office might not actually transfer property in the strict legal sense as "ownership" can be a slightly slippery concept in law !!

I don't mean to worry the OP but this is a really good example of how careful we all need to be in selling and buying cars. I disposed of an old car a few years ago and felt really windy about selling it to a particular individual who was interested in it. I was almost glad when he said that he wasn't interested in the end ! I sold it to the mechanic who serviced it and felt easy about that as there would be no come back because he was also a bona fide motor trader !!

retro:electro

No he wouldn't have had the certificate for the disc I have that here along with the new one. My insurance company rang me there and they have spoken to the guard about it and everything seems okay. I asked them could I get a letter from them detailing everything that happened and how I am not responsible or involved in any way and that it will not effect my policy. Would just like to have this in writing in case the time comes for renewal and I get a nasty surprise.
Also I don't just mean because I posted the log book that he is the owner, the guards were able to tell me that he is now on the system as the registered owner.

hullaballoo

anna080 wrote: »

No he wouldn't have had the certificate for the disc I have that here along with the new one. My insurance company rang me there and they have spoken to the guard about it and everything seems okay. I asked them could I get a letter from them detailing everything that happened and how I am not responsible or involved in any way and that it will not effect my policy. Would just like to have this in writing in case the time comes for renewal and I get a nasty surprise.
Also I don't just mean because I posted the log book that he is the owner, the guards were able to tell me that he is now on the system as the registered owner.

You seem to be taking quite a sensible approach in looking for written absolution but just for your own sake, don't get over-involved in this.

I don't think there's any reality in suggesting that you could implicate yourself but if you continue calling the Gardaí/insurance co. they may start to wonder why you're so interested as an innocent party.

retro:electro

hullaballoo wrote: »

You seem to be taking quite a sensible approach in looking for written absolution but just for your own sake, don't get over-involved in this.

I don't think there's any reality in suggesting that you could implicate yourself but if you continue calling the Gardaí/insurance co. they may start to wonder why you're so interested as an innocent party.

True yes but I just want the letter for absolute peace of mind and then I tend to wash my hands of this and forget about it.

coylemj

anna080 wrote: »

True yes but I just want the letter for absolute peace of mind and then I tend to wash my hands of this and forget about it.

You sold the car in a private sale and accepted cash, you notified the people in Shannon of the change of ownership. That's as much as you can be expected to do. I wouldn't worry about a reference to a receipt - who asks for a receipt in a private sale?

Leaving the insurance disc in the glovebox is not a crime and does not expose you to any civil liability.

Even though your insurance company will tell you on the phone that you have no liability, asking them to put this on paper is a different matter, you'll find that not even the CEO (of your insurance company) will sign that piece of paper.

The Gardai and your own insurance have both told you that you are off the hook so you really need to walk away from this situation and forget it.

coylemj

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

BTW the mere act of signing and posting the log book to the motor taxation / registration office might not actually transfer property in the strict legal sense as "ownership" can be a slightly slippery concept in law !!

In a private sale, legal ownership transfers when the buyer hands over the cash and the seller hands over the keys. The OP then posted the paperwork to Shannon which made the sale complete in all respects, legally and administratively.

He has zero exposure in this case, the insurance disc is a complete red herring. Even if he left the cert in the glovebox and the disc on the screen, he still has no liability since he was neither the driver nor the owner of the car at the time of the accident which is all that matters.

The notion that someone might have some exposure (i.e. civil liability) because he sold a car with the insurance disc in the glovebox is fanciful in the extreme.

retro:electro

coylemj wrote: »

In a private sale, legal ownership transfers when the buyer hands over the cash and the seller hands over the keys. The OP then posted the paperwork to Shannon which made the sale complete in all respects, legally and administratively.

He has zero exposure in this case, the insurance disc is a complete red herring. Even if he left the cert in the glovebox and the disc on the screen, he still has no liability since he was neither the driver nor the owner of the car at the time of the accident which is all that matters.

The notion that someone might have some exposure (i.e. civil liability) because he sold a car with the insurance disc in the glovebox is fanciful in the extreme.

I'm a girl

coylemj

anna080 wrote: »

I'm a girl

Sorry, habit. Should have noted your userid, apologies.

retro:electro

Insurance crowd have sent me an e mail absolving me of any involvement which I'm happy about. The woman from the claims department rang me too and said that she rang the guy and he admitted to everything and then he asked could he now be put on my policy!! The bloody cheek. Thanks for all the responses. Case closed! (For me anyway)