out winter pad

epfff

Can anyone talk me through building one as I don't know of any local and have no clue about them
How muck shelter needed?
How big are pins?
How big lagoon?
What maintenance during year / after year?
And most of all costs?
All help appreciated

raher1

http://www.standishsawmills.ie/wintering_pads.html
Call this crowd, they supply wood chips and advise on costings

just do it

epfff wrote: »

Can anyone talk me through building one as I don't know of any local and have no clue about them
How muck shelter needed?
How big are pins?
How big lagoon?
What maintenance during year / after year?
And most of all costs?
All help appreciated

All I'll say is they were all the rage a few years ago but a good number of them have been converted for other uses subsequently. Probably grand for a small few cattle but not a runner financially for a lot of stock.

epfff

just do it wrote: »

All I'll say is they were all the rage a few years ago but a good number of them have been converted for other uses subsequently. Probably grand for a small few cattle but not a runner financially for a lot of stock.

As I said I know nothing about them but I like considering all options

Genghis Cant

I can answer 2 of your questions.

I used to call in to Teagasc at Grange where they had a good few. They were essentially built at the side of a farm roadway with no shelter at all on most of them. The odd one they put windbreak up, but it didn't last long.
They were different sizes. But some were the width of a field gate and a slat wide. The cattle stood on the slat to feed through a barrier. Teagasc published all the details at the time.

jack77

http://www.eblex.org.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/woodchip_report021211.pdf
english based research.

ford 5600

I don't have one, but knew 3 people that had them done maybe 10 years ago. 1 of them has been pulled out, and replaced by 2 simple slatted sheds.
Another is still there, but farm has been rented out for the last 4 or 5 years. Cows (dairy) got a major E-Coli outbreak. He was probably scrimping a bit on chip, but still, he told me it cost him 1800 for the year for chip for 30 cows, and it still wasn't enough.
The 3rd one is still in use. Dairy cows and followers on it. Its probably twice the size it needs to be for what stock is on it. The only hope it has, as woodchip used wouldn't be a quarter it should be.
The way I see it is , lowish capital cost the 1st day, BUT costs a fortune to chip every year. Chip cant be spread for a couple of years, and if you have to pay a contractor to clear it off every year and draw on new stuff, you will be into serious money.
Price a load of chip, work out how many loads you need and add a couple more for luck. Now add 500 -1000 for cleaning off, replacing chip, but not spreading. Now multiply these by 10 years , and you will find you can concrete build yourself a decent shed, with a large slatted tank, for similar money, with comfort for man and beast, with slurry that is ready to spread and isn't 50% water. Now add these annual costs to what it costs to build lagoon, strip site , stone, drainage pipes , liner if needed and the rest of building costs, and I would think you will soon forget about the pad.

Greengrass1

Topless cubicles for dairy and topless slats for beef.
Thats the way to go if you want a cheao job that will do a very good job

larrymiller

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Topless cubicles for dairy and topless slats for beef.
Thats the way to go if you want a cheao job that will do a very good job

What about rain or am I missing something?

mahoney_j

larrymiller wrote: »

What about rain or am I missing something?

I'm a fan of topless cubicles for dry cows and as a stop gap for milkers on crap days in spring but not convinced there a good idea for winter milkers

Connemara Farmer

Topless slats is not a good Google search term.

joejobrien

I bet it will go full circle, eventually roofs will appear over these open top cubicles........just coming back to what most put in years ago. Man needs comfort too:D

Greengrass1

mahoney_j wrote: »

I'm a fan of topless cubicles for dry cows and as a stop gap for milkers on crap days in spring but not convinced there a good idea for winter milkers

I know a man milking cows iff them over winter. Very happy with them

mahoney_j

Greengrass1 wrote: »

I know a man milking cows iff them over winter. Very happy with them

Fresh calvers or just April may late spring calvers???theres a big difference

Greengrass1

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

Topless slats is not a good Google search term.

Seen a photo last yr of a lad with sheeo out wintered on slats. Had steel mesh put down on slats was a very good job

Greengrass1

mahoney_j wrote: »

Fresh calvers or just April may late spring calvers???theres a big difference

Nope fresh and late calvers

Connemara Farmer

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Seen a photo last yr of a lad with sheeo out wintered on slats. Had steel mesh put down on slats was a very good job

I saw mention of it either on Twitter or TFF or both. I imagine rainfall is probably too high in my area for it to be a runner.

Deepsouthwest

Greengrass1 wrote: »

I know a man milking cows iff them over winter. Very happy with them

I have one line of cubicles under a high-ish roof. When I get windy rain from the east, which is rare, it's makes them a total mess, if this is what topless cubicles are like everyday it rains, then milking off them is certainly not for me.

Greengrass1

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

I have one line of cubicles under a high-ish roof. When I get windy rain from the east, which is rare, it's makes them a total mess, if this is what topless cubicles are like everyday it rains, then milking off them is certainly not for me.

Lime makes them messy? Think you only put out lime on the dry days and then use a disinfectant other days there the whole time getting washed with rain so nothing like when indoor cubicles get wet.
I dont know his routine 100% them only speculating but he mikks off them okay

rangler1

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

I saw mention of it either on Twitter or TFF or both. I imagine rainfall is probably too high in my area for it to be a runner.

Yea, unless the tank has capacity for rainfall in your area, it won't get through an inspection

smokey-fitz

I have an outside 3 bay slated tank, been here for years. This year I put concrete around it, barriers in front and penned it off. The cows will have access to a straw shed right beside it. I will be putting a shed over it in time but want to use to feed cattle on at the moment. The only problem I can see is the tank filling with water fairly quick if there is alot of continuous rain. Its more of a trial run this year anyway so ill see how it goes.

The only viable option I can see for a outwintering pad is to have a large concrete base and a lined lagoon beside it and scrape every day or 2. At least then you have the option of putting up a shed or using as a silage slab down the line. At least then initial cost for setup wont be wasted.

blue5000

http://irishweatheronline.wordpress.com/climate-of-ireland/

Further west you are, worse it gets. Grange has about 800mm/yr. Have to agree with 5600 on this, you are better off to bite the bullet and go slats first day, avoids a lot of hassle from busybody coco prix as well.

Only way a pad might be justified is in a startup dairy situation where money is very tight, but good cashflow might help with high maintenance costs for a pad, and be used to avoid tax.

Muckit

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Topless cubicles for dairy and topless slats for beef.
Thats the way to go if you want a cheao job that will do a very good job

And even at that you have the big money spent. The shed is the cheapest part. Make up the savings in storm water vs watery slurry and a roof is a no brainer.

Greengrass1

Muckit wrote: »

And even at that you have the big money spent. The shed is the cheapest part. Make up the savings in storm water vs watery slurry and a roof is a no brainer.

Its half and half imo.
Could do a hundred cow cubicle shed for 100k usinh a lined lagoon. Could put up 100 topless cubicles for 50k and putting in lined lagoon.
If your only starting up and ye want to get money going ye need to keeps expenditure to a min.
All of this does depend on location of course but I know of at keast one set up in galway with topless cubicles.
Working fine

Farmer Pudsey

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Topless cubicles for dairy and topless slats for beef.
Thats the way to go if you want a cheao job that will do a very good job

Not sure if topless slats will be a long term solution for beef. It may be a short term stopgap until you get a roof on. You would have to factor in on average 1M+ of water into the tank as well. Take a 12' 6'' slat with 2' of toe space either side lots of places in Ireland average over 1M of rain fall add in water from toe space and you need 33% more capacity to average rain fall. So tank will need to 1/5M deeper or longer outside the stocking area. However this will collect water as well

It will be as cheap longterm to put a roof on it

blue5000

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Not sure if topless slats will be a long term solution for beef. It may be a short term stopgap until you get a roof on. You would have to factor in on average 1M+ of water into the tank as well. Take a 12' 6'' slat with 2' of toe space either side lots of places in Ireland average over 1M of rain fall add in water from toe space and you need 33% more capacity to average rain fall. So tank will need to 1/5M deeper or longer outside the stocking area. However this will collect water as well

It will be as cheap longterm to put a roof on it

It's only for the closed period that you need the extra capacity, approx 30cm extra depth. Makes it easy to agitate too.

Farmer Pudsey

blue5000 wrote: »

It's only for the closed period that you need the extra capacity, approx 30cm extra depth. Makes it easy to agitate too.

Maybe legally, however you will need it totally empty as of the 15 of October. take this year we have already got about 8''(20cm) over last 4 weeks. It is lareday saying it is only for the closed period. Nobody wants it flowing over the top Christmas week or be there in late January and fields flooded and you needing to spread slurry.

mf240

They were the craze at the time.

Just like topless cubicles are now.


There neither one thing or another. Be better of building a shed the first day.


Have to laugh at lads driving around in new jeeps and tractors and they wouldnt stick up a few measly h-irons and a few sheets of galvanise over the cows for the winter.

frazzledhome

mf240 wrote: »

They were the craze at the time.

Just like topless cubicles are now.


There neither one thing or another. Be better of building a shed the first day.


Have to laugh at lads driving around in new jeeps and tractors and they wouldnt stick up a few measly h-irons and a few sheets of galvanise over the cows for the winter.

They weren't a craze. Not too many put in. We put ours in so as to keep cash free to buy land. Cost of woodchip is the only thing that's beaten them. Fantastic way to winter cattle and as long as your not milking there's nothing to beat cattle health and comfort.

On OC's few measly H irons you say. A roof on ours is just not needed so why go to the cost another €4-500 a cubicle by the time lights, doors etc.

Why would I more than double my expenditure when I can get a better return on that money elsewhere.

That was a lazy post, as you have no idea what plans or commitments people have. If I thought a roof was necessary it would be done.

Deepsouthwest

frazzledhome wrote: »

They weren't a craze. Not too many put in. We put ours in so as to keep cash free to buy land. Cost of woodchip is the only thing that's beaten them. Fantastic way to winter cattle and as long as your not milking there's nothing to beat cattle health and comfort.

On OC's few measly H irons you say. A roof on ours is just not needed so why go to the cost another €4-500 a cubicle by the time lights, doors etc.

Why would I more than double my expenditure when I can get a better return on that money elsewhere.

That was a lazy post, as you have no idea what plans or commitments people have. If I thought a roof was necessary it would be done.

I agree with most of what u say, have seen cattle in a few out wintering pads around here, the comfort is second only to straw bedding in a shed. But I can't agree on quoting €4-500 a cubicle for roofing, people tend to quote teagasc figures for a roof, and we all know if we spent those construction figures we'd be broke. I re-roofed this shed last yr, it's 120ft x 48ft. It cost circa €6500 ex vat. (€3,198-cladding inc one gable and roof lighting, €1425-timber, €1214-labour). I'm allowing €660 for three lights and bolts nails misc. no charge for my labour, or use of my load all. I know it's no oil painting, but it's effective, and it didn't break the bank.

Farmer Pudsey

frazzledhome wrote: »

They weren't a craze. Not too many put in. We put ours in so as to keep cash free to buy land. Cost of woodchip is the only thing that's beaten them. Fantastic way to winter cattle and as long as your not milking there's nothing to beat cattle health and comfort.

On OC's few measly H irons you say. A roof on ours is just not needed so why go to the cost another €4-500 a cubicle by the time lights, doors etc.

Why would I more than double my expenditure when I can get a better return on that money elsewhere.

That was a lazy post, as you have no idea what plans or commitments people have. If I thought a roof was necessary it would be done.

Cost of the woodchip was everything. Just like lads putting in straw bedded pens in an area where straw will cost 17-20/bales on average. Outside slats may be viable along the east coast where average rain fall is 25-30''/year. On good land you can get out with slurry in January. Along the west coast it is a different senario. Biggest issue will be rain fall and access to land. Maybe 50'' and 25'' during the closed period.

Running cost are most important and looking forward 5-10 years and probable senario's. Like you said milking off outside cubicles may not be a goer. There fore along the west coast where you may need to milk off them on the shoulders of the year are they feasible. Hindsight is 20/20 vision but factoring in future cost is what saves money longterm.

Pads were the bees knees until woodchip went up in price. Was it predictable ib 2002 maybe in 2007 definately. Straw prices are the same yes thisyear it is cheap will it be the same over the next 7 years. Add in transport cost and it seldom varies by more than 3-4/bale. Along the west coast it is still costing over 15/bale this year.

frazzledhome

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

I agree with most of what u say, have seen cattle in a few out wintering pads around here, the comfort is second only to straw bedding in a shed. But I can't agree on quoting €4-500 a cubicle for roofing, people tend to quote teagasc figures for a roof, and we all know if we spent those construction figures we'd be broke. I re-roofed this shed last yr, it's 120ft x 48ft. It cost circa €6500 ex vat. (€3,198-cladding inc one gable and roof lighting, €1425-timber, €1214-labour). I'm allowing €660 for three lights and bolts nails misc. no charge for my labour, or use of my load all. I know it's no oil painting, but it's effective, and it didn't break the bank.

Are they timber uprights?
Looking a something similar for calves

Timmaay

DSW that looks very interesting, did you put it up yourself? Timber rafters are becoming less and less common, however do the job extremely well in my view, makes the installation easier if you have any sort odd sized roof/off square etc etc. Using the timber poles instead of steel girders is something I haven't seen in a long time, how much do they save over each girder do ya know?

mf240

frazzledhome wrote: »

They weren't a craze. Not too many put in. We put ours in so as to keep cash free to buy land. Cost of woodchip is the only thing that's beaten them. Fantastic way to winter cattle and as long as your not milking there's nothing to beat cattle health and comfort.

On OC's few measly H irons you say. A roof on ours is just not needed so why go to the cost another €4-500 a cubicle by the time lights, doors etc.

Why would I more than double my expenditure when I can get a better return on that money elsewhere.

That was a lazy post, as you have no idea what plans or commitments people have. If I thought a roof was necessary it would be done.

Ok fair enough you dont need the roof. But why talk about doors and lights.

Im talking the bare roof and h irons. Enough to keep most rain off and divert rainwater.

Dont forget you can also depriciate the roof over 8 years so if on high rate of tax you will be saving 41% of costs.

Timmaay

mf240 wrote: »

Dont forget you can also depriciate the roof over 8 years so if on high rate of tax you will be saving 41% of costs.

I don't buy this spending money to save tax argument at all. Simple as is invest money on whatever gives you the most return on your investment, all this money can be offset against tax anyways, whether it be a shed, outdoor cubicles, more cows, etc etc. If frazz has to spend 20k on a roof this year on top of the cubicles etc, surely that would mean 20k less to spend on cows etc etc, against him just deciding to draw it down and get hit on tax on it?

F.D

Don't know if it has been said here before but, a lot of farmers have limited land bases, or fragmented pockets of land every where, so
Why would you consider loosing an acre to dig a big hole in the ground
to collect slurry and rain water
and then the added cost of drawing it to all these pockets of land to get rid of it
and then another acre to a big woodchip pad that i could cut in half by having cubicles or slats
it seems mad to me, if i had a 300 acres in one block then it would not cost me a thought to put one in

another point is the soil structure i know there is a lot of merit in spreading watery slurry but when you see people lashing out 3-4000 gallons to the acre in one application it cannot be good for the ground especially if its a wet summer already and you have no choice but to get the lagoon emptied

frazzledhome

Lads it's a drop of rain, 3 mths max. I've a river through farm and I see an awful lot of lads drawing water to agitate tanks.

On spreading why spread in one go. It's 2k per acre right through summer, young lad €50/ day. All farm gets it and in fact all other slats are pumped to lagoon.

I have a shed on an out farm and the slurry is this thick stuff that cakes on the ground. I'd prefer mote watery stuff.

Saying all this we must collect all water that falls when cows are on OC's.

To roof what I needed to roof the way id want it would've cost in the region of 60-70k. Much better places for money, I can't see the return. I only want a place to keep cows till the go back out to graze

RightTurnClyde

frazzledhome wrote: »

Lads it's a drop of rain, 3 mths max. I've a river through farm and I see an awful lot of lads drawing water to agitate tanks.

On spreading why spread in one go. It's 2k per acre right through summer, young lad €50/ day. All farm gets it and in fact all other slats are pumped to lagoon.

I have a shed on an out farm and the slurry is this thick stuff that cakes on the ground. I'd prefer mote watery stuff.

Saying all this we must collect all water that falls when cows are on OC's.

To roof what I needed to roof the way id want it would've cost in the region of 60-70k. Much better places for money, I can't see the return. I only want a place to keep cows till the go back out to graze

Can't fault anything said there. On the watery slurry, totally agree, I hate this thing of dumping thick slurry onto pasture at certain times of the year. 90% of my slurry storage is outdoors, and all washings are added into this tank. Spreading watery slurry in the right conditions throughout the year gives great returns. Weither it's the highly soluble P or weither it's acting like liquid urea, I don't know, but it's some stuff to grow grass.

Farmer Pudsey

There is no such thing as one size fits all. A drop of rain for 3 months along the easy coast is a deludge along the west coast. Looking after excess water then is the issue.

Some lads poo poo Capital allowances, however they too have there place especiall in the drystock where lads are working as well. After first day cost of setting up they are easy to maintain. Water slurry is grand if spreading yourself but a different story if you are paying a contractor. Spread at the right stage N value is 0ver twice the best senario teagasc gives.

Cattlepen

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Not sure if topless slats will be a long term solution for beef. It may be a short term stopgap until you get a roof on. You would have to factor in on average 1M+ of water into the tank as well. Take a 12' 6'' slat with 2' of toe space either side lots of places in Ireland average over 1M of rain fall add in water from toe space and you need 33% more capacity to average rain fall. So tank will need to 1/5M deeper or longer outside the stocking area. However this will collect water as well

It will be as cheap longterm to put a roof on it

Not saying your wrong but there was a topless slatted unit in the journal a few years ago and the owner said the amount of extra slurry was negligible. He said some years he had to add water to agitate. Not sure how true, just what I read.

onyerbikepat

Could you put a cover (tarpaulin) over the slats when the cattle are out and divert rain away from the tank. Leave a small gap for the gases not to be trapped.

Miname

ive an outdoor tank all be-it a small one that i put ten cows on it. They have access to a cubicle house with a creep area. the surrounding ground around it is higher to 2 sides so it in theory should be catching about as much rain as any. most years i end up drawing water into it . the amount that you have to allow for is minimal and on the worst of days you'll still find them outside standing in the weather.The same for the calves too. i was tempted to roof it a few times but more for appearances sake but ive now changed my opinion on that completly.
Its very easy for other lads to call round and say you should do this, this and the other as ive found while building another shed but like frazzled said earlier theres always other options with potential returns that may be better. Nobody knows their own finances better than themselves and a few lenghts of h iron and a couple of sheets of galvanise mightnt be overly expensive but if your after finishing a new project they may be completly unattainable.

Deepsouthwest

frazzledhome wrote: »

Are they timber uprights?
Looking a something similar for calves

Ex telecom poles, neater than ESB poles

darragh_haven

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Ex telecom poles, neater than ESB poles

And I wonder why I can't get a landlind with feckers stealing the poles

Deepsouthwest

Timmaay wrote: »

DSW that looks very interesting, did you put it up yourself? Timber rafters are becoming less and less common, however do the job extremely well in my view, makes the installation easier if you have any sort odd sized roof/off square etc etc. Using the timber poles instead of steel girders is something I haven't seen in a long time, how much do they save over each girder do ya know?

Yes, had a v handy man with me with all his own tools, and two more lads on the day we were firing up the cladding. The poles were there from the old roof(about 30 yrs old). But ur right bout the timber rafters, they are v forgiving, and they needed to be, no two poles were the same span or height. The previous generation obviously stood them in the dark, without a line, a tape or a level!

lakill Farm

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Seen a photo last yr of a lad with sheeo out wintered on slats. Had steel mesh put down on slats was a very good job

that's the 2 lads off twitter in? one sheep and 1 dairy?

Both seemed really happy and to be honest a lot of lads had there eyes opened that the set up worked so well