Momentum Courses - are they mandatory?

Terpsichorean Master

Hi all!

I received a letter from the DSP yesterday informing me that five momentum courses had been "attached for my attention".

Now, while I'm obviously not against the idea of courses like these, these are five utterly random and completely irrelevant courses with regard to my skill set, education and areas of interest. The whole tone of the letter was impersonal and mildly intimidating; with the instruction being to review all courses and 'decide' which one I would like to join - regardless of actual choice or interest.

It also contained a direction at the end - in red print for emphatic 'threatening' effect - that the form had to be returned in two weeks or my "jobseekers payment WILL be affected. Please note that a valid reason will be needed by the Dept. if do not avail of the 'opportunity' that is being 'offered' to [me]".

Below that was just the generic sign-off term "Employment Services", they didn't even put someone's name to it, so I'm unable to contact anyone directly!

So, I would very much know of anyone who can answer specifically or with any useful information as to what the actual effective criteria are with regard to a "valid reason" for NOT accepting this 'opportunity'???

And also, are these courses actually compulsory when "recommended" in this context?

All and any information, instruction and help will be very gratefully received indeed, as this has me quite worried , thanks in advance.


P.S. A previous thread on this topic was closed due to the OP "Insulting staff of Social Welfare and posters of this forum" and getting themselves banned from the forum as a result, so please keep your replies on topic and free from personal slights or comments - thanks again!

rsole1

Terpsichorean Master wrote: »

Hi all!

I received a letter from the DSP yesterday informing me that five momentum courses had been "attached for my attention".

Now, while I'm obviously not against the idea of courses like these, these are five utterly random and completely irrelevant courses with regard to my skill set, education and areas of interest. The whole tone of the letter was impersonal and mildly intimidating; with the instruction being to review all courses and 'decide' which one I would like to join - regardless of actual choice or interest.

It also contained a direction at the end - in red print for emphatic 'threatening' effect - that the form had to be returned in two weeks or my "jobseekers payment WILL be affected. Please note that a valid reason will be needed by the Dept. if do not avail of the 'opportunity' that is being 'offered' to [me]".

Below that was just the generic sign-off term "Employment Services", they didn't even put someone's name to it, so I'm unable to contact anyone directly!

So, I would very much know of anyone who can answer specifically or with any useful information as to what the actual effective criteria are with regard to a "valid reason" for NOT accepting this 'opportunity'???

And also, are these courses actually compulsory when "recommended" in this context?

All and any information, instruction and help will be very gratefully received indeed, as this has me quite worried , thanks in advance.


P.S. A previous thread on this topic was closed due to the OP "Insulting staff of Social Welfare and posters of this forum" and getting themselves banned from the forum as a result, so please keep your replies on topic and free from personal slights or comments - thanks again!

They look very much like the old FAS courses to me. I think it is another "activation" scheme. CE schemes, TUS, Jobbridge, Gateway, Pathway. About 80,000 people are "employed" thus lowering the unemployment rates. Don't think it's compulsory though.

Terpsichorean Master

rsole1 wrote: »

They look very much like the old FAS courses to me. I think it is another "activation" scheme. CE schemes, TUS, Jobbridge, Gateway, Pathway. About 80,000 people are "employed" thus lowering the unemployment rates. Don't think it's compulsory though.

Thanks for the response!

Since I posted earlier, I spoke to a staff member in my LES (which is where I went for the group engagement & one-to-one sessions that preceded this letter & was the beginning of the process) who said that these letters are automated, but that failure to engage/respond with them (something I'd never considered btw) will DEFINITELY result in a reduction of payment of €44 and that as far as she knows - although she did say that her knowledge was limited only to what her clients had reported back to her & her co-workers - even an attempt at saying that the courses are unsuitable, unless I can demonstrate that I've applied for another course or in some way am doing something similar to what they're trying to make me do - i.e. just looking for a job is NOT enough - in the next ten days, it will most likely result in the same reduction also - which effectively makes it compulsory or, at least, under threat of sanction; and effectively the same thing.


Now, I would like to repeat that she did stress that her first-hand knowledge is limited to what she's heard back in that manner, as they are no longer in the loop in this process as they once would have been; but that she didn't reckon there was much in the way of choice once you're actually in this system.

She did say that they were indeed what would have been considered Fás courses in the past, but that they were now under a new name/umbrella since all the Fás staff were moved over following the changeover. And that this is indeed part of an 'activation' scheme, like you said.


She also said that I'd be best off contacting their 'Activation Support Team' directly, and gave me their local number, in order to get definitive information in this regard, but I'd much prefer to enter into that particular process as informed/forearmed as possible, hence the posts here.

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So, does anyone have any first-hand or further knowledge of what actually happens if you don't choose one of the proscribed courses on this list and how to practically go about doing so without being sanctioned?

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Once again, any and all input and information will be very gratefully received!

Cheers.

Balagan

Penalty rates
Your payment can be reduced if you refuse or fail to attend meetings requested by the Department or if you refuse or fail to participate in an appropriate employment support scheme, work experience or training. You can find out about sanctions for not meeting the conditions of your jobseeker's payment. Penalty rates do not apply to people over 62 from 1 January 2014
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/jobseekers_allowance.html

Reduction in payment
When you apply for a jobseeker’s payment you will be asked to sign a Record of Mutual Commitments (pdf) which explains your rights and responsibilities while you are getting your jobseeker’s payment from the Department of Social Protection (DSP).

Depending on your personal profile, you may be given an appointment for a further meeting with a DSP case officer. At this meeting your case officer will discuss your options with you and agree your Personal Progression Plan to prepare you to find employment. You will get ongoing advice and support to help you meet the goals in your Personal Progression Plan. You can read about the employment services the Department of Social Protection offers to jobseekers.

If you do not keep to the steps agreed in the Record of Mutual Commitments and the other conditions of your jobseeker’s payment, your payment can be reduced and eventually stopped altogether. Specifically you can be paid a penalty rate of JA or JB if you refuse or fail to:

Attend meetings requested by the DSP or
Participate in an appropriate employment support scheme, work experience or training
If you have been placed on a penalty rate and you continue not to meet the conditions you can be disqualified from your jobseeker’s payment for up to 9 weeks. You cannot be disqualified immediately – a penalty rate must apply first for at least 21 days.

Rates

Penalty rates of payment for JB
Personal rate Reduction to
€84.50 €65
€121.40 €93
€147.30 €113
€188 €144
Penalty rates of payment for JA
Personal rate Reduction to
€188 €144
€100 €75
€144 €111
Penalty rates do not apply to people over 62 from 1 January 2014.

Appeals
If you wish to appeal a decision (including a decision on a penalty rate) you should make this appeal to the Social Welfare Appeals Office using the contact information below. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/conditions_for_getting_a_jobseekers_payment.html

eastbono

You state that you have seen a case officer on a 1 to 1 interview. I would think that this letter is a direct follow on from your meeting. You would have discussed with the case officer on the day possible courses etc that may be of benefit in either you retraining to get back into the work force or continued training in your area. You need to get on to your case officer and ask for a follow up appointment to discuss this list of courses if they do not equate with what was discussed with your case officer.

Terpsichorean Master

Balagan wrote: »

Penalty rates
Your payment can be reduced if you refuse or fail to attend meetings requested by the Department or if you refuse or fail to participate in an appropriate employment support scheme, work experience or training. You can find out about sanctions for not meeting the conditions of your jobseeker's payment. Penalty rates do not apply to people over 62 from 1 January 2014


Reduction in payment
When you apply for a jobseeker’s payment you will be asked to sign a Record of Mutual Commitments (pdf) which explains your rights and responsibilities while you are getting your jobseeker’s payment from the Department of Social Protection (DSP).

Depending on your personal profile, you may be given an appointment for a further meeting with a DSP case officer. At this meeting your case officer will discuss your options with you and agree your Personal Progression Plan to prepare you to find employment. You will get ongoing advice and support to help you meet the goals in your Personal Progression Plan. You can read about the employment services the Department of Social Protection offers to jobseekers.

If you do not keep to the steps agreed in the Record of Mutual Commitments and the other conditions of your jobseeker’s payment, your payment can be reduced and eventually stopped altogether. Specifically you can be paid a penalty rate of JA or JB if you refuse or fail to:

Attend meetings requested by the DSP or
Participate in an appropriate employment support scheme, work experience or training
If you have been placed on a penalty rate and you continue not to meet the conditions you can be disqualified from your jobseeker’s payment for up to 9 weeks. You cannot be disqualified immediately – a penalty rate must apply first for at least 21 days.

Rates

Penalty rates of payment for JB
Personal rate Reduction to
€84.50 €65
€121.40 €93
€147.30 €113
€188 €144
Penalty rates of payment for JA
Personal rate Reduction to
€188 €144
€100 €75
€144 €111
Penalty rates do not apply to people over 62 from 1 January 2014.

Appeals
If you wish to appeal a decision (including a decision on a penalty rate) you should make this appeal to the Social Welfare Appeals Office using the contact information below.

Thanks for the info Balagan, although it was actually more of an input with regard to avoiding sanctions and not being forced onto an unsuitable course that I was looking for, but you're welcome nonetheless; as it's always good to know what the potential realities are!

Terpsichorean Master

eastbono wrote: »

You state that you have seen a case officer on a 1 to 1 interview. I would think that this letter is a direct follow on from your meeting. You would have discussed with the case officer on the day possible courses etc that may be of benefit in either you retraining to get back into the work force or continued training in your area. You need to get on to your case officer and ask for a follow up appointment to discuss this list of courses if they do not equate with what was discussed with your case officer.

Well eastbono, as you can see from my reply to rsole1 above, I've already contacted my case officer about this and she informed me that that these letters are automated and that as far as she knows - although she did say that her knowledge was limited only to what her clients had reported back to her & her co-workers - even an attempt at saying that the courses are unsuitable, unless I can demonstrate that I've applied for another course or in some way am doing something similar to what they're trying to make me do - i.e. just looking for a job is NOT enough - in the next ten days, which is the remaining time before I need to respond, it will most likely result in a reduction of my payment regardless of said unsuitability.

In fairness, she did also say that I'd be best off contacting their 'Activation Support Team' directly, and gave me their local number, in order to get definitive information in this regard, as she doesn't know for sure what the actual situation is - which tells you something about how peripheral her/their role has now become under the current regime.

As I said already, I'm not opposed to these course in the least, I'm just not interested in doing a completely irrelevant and uninteresting course under threat of sanction, all so someone can finesse the Live Register numbers in a pre-election cycle.

And, more importantly, I would prefer to be able to give my options a little more consideration than 12 days when it comes to committing myself to something that will take up seven months of my life, whether I end up having to do one of these courses, or am able to choose something similar myself, regardless.

This is the whole reason that I posted this topic, as before I contact them directly, I'd like to know as much as is humanly possible - ideally from people who have been through this process themselves and so would have first-hand knowledge, but I do welcome all input - so that I can best represent myself and ensure my own best interest in the face of what appears to be a somewhat heavy-handed and impersonal, numbers-driven approach.



If you have anything further to add yourself, I'd be only too glad to hear it; and likewise, I welcome any further information that ANYONE thinks is relevant or will help!


Thanks again!

eastbono

AFAIK a penalty rate cannot be applied to your claim if you do not take up an offer on one of these computer generated momentum letters. If your case officer and you had decided on a course of action and you did not follow through on it then that would be an entirely different scenario and a penalty rate could be applied but this is not the case. Your case officer is part of the activation team so I dont know why she would refer you to activation support team.

salamanca22

I got the same letter this week however I am on BTEA and am in college.

With my college schedule I will never get in to get this sorted.

Terpsichorean Master

eastbono wrote: »

AFAIK a penalty rate cannot be applied to your claim if you do not take up an offer on one of these computer generated momentum letters. If your case officer and you had decided on a course of action and you did not follow through on it then that would be an entirely different scenario and a penalty rate could be applied but this is not the case. Your case officer is part of the activation team so I dont know why she would refer you to activation support team.

Well, I certainly hope that you're correct - can you remember where did you hear or find out about this?

As it would certainly help immensely to be able to clarify this in advance.


Unfortunately, that's not what the LES officer said though; although, as I said, she wasn't absolutely certain about that - hence the reference to the Activation Support Team. Then again, perhaps she was hedging her bets in that regard. And she's not actually my case officer as it happens, she's just covering her cases. My case officer is off sick at the moment and for the foreseeable future, as she had some sort of accident - which is extremely inconvenient to say the least, but what can you do.

Tbh, it did annoy me somewhat that she didn't know if that was the case for sure, as she's supposed to be acting as a mediator in this situation, but my initial case officer did say previously that they were being directed to rather than worked with in the current environment; and that their input, influence and/or recommendations were no longer being given the same sort of weight as before.

I had agreed on a certain course of action, as you are effectively forced to do in that situation; and while the idea of doing 'a' course in this timeframe isn't necessarily outside that remit, although it is a very rushed period to be deciding something like this, these specific courses certainly are. And it's quite an accelerated timeframe also, as it's only a month since I saw her for that meeting and our next meeting isn't until January. Her fill-in also said that this letter isn't necessarily the only one I might receive, despite the fact that I'm being pushed to take this particular 'course'-of-action, there is still a possibility that I could receive a similar letter WRT another type of course, a scheme or internship etc.



Anyway, thanks again for your reply - and if there's anything else that you can tell me, it will be only too gratefully received!

Likewise, ANYONE else that has something that could contribute - feel free, any and all help and information will be very much appreciated!

MouseTail

What was agreed in your personal progression plan with your Case Officer? Did you agree to pursuing training opportunities, and have you identified any? eastbono is correct, the penalty rate will apply if you do not engage with the progression plan. If you have been pursuing actions identified, and can prove this, you wont be penalised.