Campaign for a Secular Alternate Scout Promise

Orion

https://www.facebook.com/SecularScoutPromiseIRE

Got shared this yesterday. Personally I think this would be a very positive step. I know people who won't get involved in scouting because there is an insistence of a higher power belief but who would like to be involved in the movement. The youth members involved are requesting from NC2015 that the NMC, who have the power to do so, change the promise to this alternate wording to make it more inclusive than it currently is:

On my honour, I promise to do my best,
To further my understanding of spirituality,
To serve my community,
To help other people,
And live by the Scout Law.

BeardySi

It seems to not be there any more...

Though I fail to see what's not inclusive about that - furthering an understanding of spirituality is part of having an open mind and an aid to understanding the world and its people all the better. It's not a commitment to actually practice anything...

amen

Though I fail to see what's not inclusive about that - furthering an understanding of spirituality is part of having an open mind and an aid to understanding the world and its people all the better. It's not a commitment to actually practice anything

but what happens if you don't have any belief in any spirituality ?
Why should you promise to further your understanding of something you don't believe in ?

If you don't believe in the Loch Ness monster and wanted to join a youth group that requested you to further your understanding of the Loch Ness monster would you think that is a reasonable promise ?

BeardySi

Gaining an understanding of faiths doesn't mean you have to believe in them. It's just that - an understanding.

That promise as it is makes no commitment to actually practice any faith or observe and spiritual practice. It simply says you'll broaden your horizons on the subject. As a (for the sake of argument) atheist leader would you not want to do exactly that if you had a situation where a new joiner came from a faith you weren't familiar with?

Having a better idea of the beliefs and attitudes of different religions gives a better understanding of the people who adhere to them. Surely that's not a bad thing? It's ignorance and closed mindedness that cause problems...

As for your Lough Ness analogy... Whether you believed in it or not would it not help in that situation to have an idea of how the belief in the monster effects others? After all you're not expected to believe in the monster, just to try and gain an understanding of those who do...

tomc

amen wrote: »

but what happens if you don't have any belief in any spirituality ?
Why should you promise to further your understanding of something you don't believe in ?

If you don't believe in the Loch Ness monster and wanted to join a youth group that requested you to further your understanding of the Loch Ness monster would you think that is a reasonable promise ?

AS you said, you shouldn't promise to believe in something you don't and as this is a core value in Scouting then people should opt for an alternative outlet other than scouting.

The Scout promise has been modified over the years to be to be as inclusive as possible that it almost means nothing now. Too much PC.

Orion

So you're saying it's PC to be inclusive and have a promise that allows anyone of any faith or none to take? It's in the SI constitution that it is open to people of all faiths or none yet the two promises insist on an "acceptance" of either God or a spiritual reality. This proposed one removes that "acceptance" qualification and is merely an understanding of spirituality which anyone bar a hardline denier of religion can take. Dismissing that as PC is not very tolerant.

BeardySi

Btw, is that a hidden group or something cost I can't access it, I just get send back to my feed on FB...

What's the version they're proposing?

Orion

It's not a group at all - it's a page and should be open to anyone.

The new version being proposed is in the OP.

BeardySi

Aaaah had the wrong end of the stick there... Thought that was the current one ye were looking to change and I was really wondering why!

So for those of me who aren't SI (despite Si being my name! ) what's the existing non religious promise ye have? I seem to recall ye do have an alternative...

And nope, cant load that page... Not on my phone at least, will try on the computer later on...

edit: nope, not on the PC either, rather odd...

Orion

The current Promise is:

On my honour, I promise to do my best,
To do my duty to God,
To serve my community,
To help other people,
And live by the Scout Law

and the current Alternate Promise is:
On my honour, I promise to do my best,
To further my knowledge and acceptance of a spiritual reality
To serve my community,
To help other people,
And live by the Scout Law

BeardySi

Well that's just pointless... Both pretty much say the same thing...

Orion

A general understanding of spirituality and acceptance of a spiritual reality are not the same thing.

BeardySi

I meant - "To do my duty to God" and "To further my knowledge and acceptance of a spiritual reality" essentially mean the same thing. Both are requiring a belief. Makes the current alternative rather pointless really.

Your proposed version is far better, if a bit of a mouthful...

My lot went for the option of;

On my honour, I promise
To uphold our Scout values
To do my duty to the Queen,
To help other people
And to keep the Scout Law

Which, while an improvement, its a bit daft as upholding scout values and keeping the scout law are essentially the same. Still, it did away with a lot of crossed fingers and creative interpreting of the wording....

Boardnashea

Lots of discussion of this on Myscout.ie at present