New whistleblower. Tax avoidance for wealthy

emo72

Ministers and a judge implicated. The judge was investigating Ansbacher, which it's claimed he had an account. The civil servant that blew the proverbial whistle was offered a 20k bonus to "finish" his report.

My view is none of this stuff surprises me anymore. The country is severely corrupted. No-one wants to investigate this. Irish people are been pushed to extremes with taxes and are starting to push back. A bit.

Hopefully the guilty parties will be caught and given the same amount of justice that a man got for smuggling vegetables.

Skylinehead

Tax avoidance is legal.

HeidiHeidi

Skylinehead wrote: »

Tax avoidance is legal.

This. Think it's tax evasion you mean.

And (as of last I heard anyway) the only person to be named so far (the judge) is deceased.

emo72

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

This. Think it's tax evasion you mean.

And (as of last I heard anyway) the only person to be named so far (the judge) is deceased.

Well I wanted to be careful with the terms I used. The judges family have admitted he did have an Ansbacher account. But didn't use it for anything untoward. Would it not be normal for a judge to declare himself unable to preside due to being involved?

He knew he had an account. Didn't want anyone to know so said nothing. Would that be because he knew what he was doing was wrong?

Tabnabs

They were talking about this on the radio yesterday afternoon (think RTE Radio1) and the reporter said that the individual had made the information available to every official he could pass it onto including AGS and that it really was nothing new. If no prosecutions had taken place to date, the likely reason was that settlements had been reached with Revenue and the issues were no longer relevant.

Valetta

There was nothing illegal about having an Ansbacher account.

People need to inform themselves before going on nonsensical rants.

emo72

Valetta wrote: »

There was nothing illegal about having an Ansbacher account.

People need to inform themselves before going on nonsensical rants.

Hello, I'd hardly refer to what I wrote as a nonsensical rant. I wanted to talk on this "forum" about what was going on. It's all over the media. There is really no need for insults.

Edit.... And obviously there is something untoward going on. Why is it front page news otherwise?

I think it's a given that Ansbacher accounts are not illegal. It's what people use them for that issues may arise. And I believe someone is trying to silence to whistleblower.

Gloomtastic!

It seems to me that everyone implicated in this story is retired or dead - with the exception of Michael Lowry. (Was he ever honest?)

It's therefore a non-story really and just a whitewash to distract us from Irish Water........

Valetta

emo72 wrote: »

Ministers and a judge implicated. The judge was investigating Ansbacher, which it's claimed he had an account. The civil servant that blew the proverbial whistle was offered a 20k bonus to "finish" his report.

My view is none of this stuff surprises me anymore. The country is severely corrupted. No-one wants to investigate this. Irish people are been pushed to extremes with taxes and are starting to push back. A bit.

Hopefully the guilty parties will be caught and given the same amount of justice that a man got for smuggling vegetables.

Guilty of what, exactly?

creedp

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

It seems to me that everyone implicated in this story is retired or dead - with the exception of Michael Lowry. (Was he ever honest?)

It's therefore a non-story really and just a whitewash to distract us from Irish Water........

I know sure nobody has any interest in the corruption of past politicians or other big wigs .. we're much more interested in ensuring that the more average Joe in society pays their way. As a poster eloquently said in another thread recently 'I abhor tax cheats full stop'. I suppose though it is possible to abhor one category of tax cheat a bit more than another.

emo72

Valetta wrote: »

Guilty of what, exactly?

Well I can't really answer that. Because the people involved aren't really forthcoming with information. The CS obviously thinks something is up because he has a report that he has sent to numerous state bodies. I'm just taking a stab at this now, I'm sure he wouldn't be so dogged, and put his reputation at risk if he didn't think there was a case to answer.

So the answer is no one knows. But I would like it to be investigated so you could have an answer.

ardmacha

emo72 wrote: »

Hopefully the guilty parties will be caught and given the same amount of justice that a man got for smuggling vegetables.

Do you hope that water "tax" evaders will be similarly treated?

flutered

any ideas why it has taken two years for a goverment department to send a file to ags.

emo72

ardmacha wrote: »

Do you hope that water "tax" evaders will be similarly treated?

No I don't. But I'm sure they will be chased with much more vigour than Ansbacher holders who withheld information from revenue.

Cerco

flutered wrote: »

any ideas why it has taken two years for a goverment department to send a file to ags.

Even worse Is the feeble excuse of a change in personnel.

Son Of A Vidic

emo72 wrote: »

No I don't. But I'm sure they will be chased with much more vigour than Ansbacher holders who withheld information from revenue.

And of that you can be absolutely sure.

Sand

flutered wrote: »

any ideas why it has taken two years for a goverment department to send a file to ags.

That's pretty efficient for the civil service to be fair.

conorh91

emo72 wrote: »

Hopefully the guilty parties will be caught and given the same amount of justice that a man got for smuggling vegetables.

You refer to the man who planned and executed a €1.6 million revenue fraud over the course of four years.

I'm so tired of this constant portrayal of that case as a squabble over a few cloves of garlic. It was a carefully planned, fraudulent enterprise.

Anyway, back on the subject of the "whistleblower", it's clear the Gardaí, Revenue and the ODCE have had the material evidence for some years. Investigations seem to have had concluded, and it is unclear why the civil servant believes his Garda statement would have been so significant as to have been capable of resulting in a prosecution.

emo72

conorh91 wrote: »

You refer to the man who planned and executed a €1.6 million revenue fraud over the course of four years.

I'm so tired of this constant portrayal of that case as a squabble over a few cloves of garlic. It was a carefully planned, fraudulent enterprise.

Anyway, back on the subject of the "whistleblower", it's clear the Gardaí, Revenue and the ODCE have had the material evidence for some years. Investigations seem to have had concluded, and it is unclear why the civil servant believes his Garda statement would have been so significant as to have been capable of resulting in a prosecution.

yeah i agree with you conor. the guy committed a crime and got done for it. 1.6 million worth of fraud. all anyone usually asks for is fairness. the same rule to apply to all.


"it's clear the Gardaí, Revenue and the ODCE have had the material evidence for some years"

i think i heard on the news tonight that the file has only been forwarded in the last couple of days to the gardai, things might have changed recently.

conorh91

emo72 wrote: »

i think i heard on the news tonight that the file has only been forwarded in the last couple of days to the gardai, things might have changed recently.

My understanding is that the recent material sent to AGS is a statement from Mr. Ryan, the whisteleblower.

AGS have already been in possession of the material evidence which resulted from the initial investigation.

In fact, it's quite possible AGS have been in possession of more information than Mr Ryan, the whistleblower, is aware of.

My name is URL

How come the whistleblower has been publicly named at this stage? Has he come out himself and talked about it?

Seems kind of odd that his name is all over the media when so little else is known. I'm sure it puts him or any other potential whistleblower in a tricky position.

tbradman

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

This. Think it's tax evasion you mean.

And (as of last I heard anyway) the only person to be named so far (the judge) is deceased.

I think Skylinehead got it right. Tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion is illegal.

translegal.com/legal-english-lessons/tax-avoidance

tbradman

Valetta wrote: »

There was nothing illegal about having an Ansbacher account.

People need to inform themselves before going on nonsensical rants.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the Ansbacher account system as designed by Des Traynor a form of tax evasion and therefore illegal?

Just opening an Ansbacher account is fine, it’s a bank account, nothing wrong with that. I believe several people had an empty/never used Ansbacher account and were not subject to any action by Revenue. However using it to deposit money and evade paying taxes i.e. using it the way the Irish Ansbacher account holders used it, it was an instrument of Tax evasion?

This recent information from a new whistle-blower seems to suggest that some account holders were never brought to light and as a result never paid taxes and penalties. The only way to find out the truth is a new and open investigation.

Cerco

tbradman wrote: »

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the Ansbacher account system as designed by Des Traynor a form of tax evasion and therefore illegal?

Just opening an Ansbacher account is fine, it’s a bank account, nothing wrong with that. I believe several people had an empty/never used Ansbacher account and were not subject to any action by Revenue. However using it to deposit money and evade paying taxes i.e. using it the way the Irish Ansbacher account holders used it, it was an instrument of Tax evasion?

This recent information from a new whistle-blower seems to suggest that some account holders were never brought to light and as a result never paid taxes and penalties. The only way to find out the truth is a new and open investigation.

The tax evaders did not open an Anbacher account. They opened an account with Guinness Mahon bank. It was Mr. Tray nor who organised the Ansbacher accounts.
Seems now that some have taken advantage of tax amnesties. If so their names will not be published.
Irish Times reports now that PAC are not legally permitted to investigate either.
Really emphasises the saying"Taxes are for the little people"

The Corinthian

Tax avoidance is where you simply take advantage of legal means to pay less tax, such as writing off certain expenses or losses, claiming for charitable donations and so on. It's legal and anyone can do this, it's just that most PAYE workers don't bother or are not even aware of this - in reality, most could save themselves a bit of money if they did their homework.

Tax evasion is where you fraudulently fail to pay tax that you should be paying; such as not declaring income or the like. This is illegal and anyone can do this too, or are 'nixers' somehow a special kind of undeclared income?

This story is about the latter, of people who were failing to pay tax that should have been paid. The subjects of the story are also from the early 90s / late 80s, back when tax evasion was the norm in Ireland and remarkably easy to do.

From what I can see, any potential prosecutions seem to be the Irish equivalent of Israel finding a 95-year old Nazi in South America - based on historical rather than current crimes.

curioser

Extract from article in Irish Independent Saturday 22 November -

One of the senior politicians who allegedly evaded tax by holding an offshore bank account will certainly cause a jolt.

After being associated with the highest ethical standards throughout his career, such a revelation would cause irreparable damage to his legacy.

Could this possibly refer to a former PD leader? And might it explain why Mary Harney was the Minister who asked the whistleblower to wind up the enquiry?

The Corinthian

tbradman wrote: »

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the Ansbacher account system as designed by Des Traynor a form of tax evasion and therefore illegal?

You know, I can't pass their offices on Mühlebachstrasse without feeling just a little homesick.

conorh91

curioser wrote: »

Extract from article in Irish Independent Saturday 22 November -

One of the senior politicians who allegedly evaded tax by holding an offshore bank account will certainly cause a jolt.

After being associated with the highest ethical standards throughout his career, such a revelation would cause irreparable damage to his legacy.

Could this possibly refer to a former PD leader?

The Indo are certainly sailing close to the wind on that one, since the number of former senior politicians fitting the description of "associated with the highest ethical standards" is precisely one!

What a depressing thought.

And might it explain why Mary Harney was the Minister who asked the whistleblower to wind up the enquiry?

We now have the weapon and the motive, but we still don't have the body.

Dannyboy83

What was the alleged reason Harney asked the whistle-blower to wind up the enquiry?

I feel 'It rans it's course' is not going to quite cut it now.

This is pretty grim, even for Irish politics tbh...

Dan_Solo

conorh91 wrote: »

Investigations seem to have had concluded, and it is unclear why the civil servant believes his Garda statement would have been so significant as to have been capable of resulting in a prosecution.

Could you provide your evidence that this "investigation" existed?

Dan_Solo

conorh91 wrote: »

In fact, it's quite possible AGS have been in possession of more information than Mr Ryan, the whistleblower, is aware of.

Well, lot's of things are "possible" in the strict sense of the word. Is it likely AGS conducted any investigation involving senior government politicians off their own bat?
Not bleedin' likely mate.

conorh91

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well, lot's of things are "possible" in the strict sense of the word. Is it likely AGS conducted any investigation involving senior government politicians off their own bat?
Not bleedin' likely mate.

AGS typically investigate white-collar crime on foot of a complaint.

I can think of several recent examples where AGS have done so, most of which resulted in prosecutions.

Anyone who reads the news would be aware of these Garda investigations - two separate prosecutions of serving or former TDs have been in the news this week alone, and that's not including the investigation under discussion.

michael999999

conorh91 wrote: »

AGS typically investigate white-collar crime on foot of a complaint.

I can think of several recent examples where AGS have done so, most of which resulted in prosecutions.

Anyone who reads the news would be aware of these Garda investigations - two separate prosecutions of serving or former TDs have been in the news this week alone, and that's not including the investigation under discussion.

And they were only prosecuted because a newspaper discovered the frauds committed by the Fianna fail TDs.

The whole Fianna fail organization needs to be investigated by CAB and Revenue. Criminality seems to be systemic and there seems to be a culture of decwit and self enrichment!

conorh91

michael999999 wrote: »

And they were only prosecuted because a newspaper discovered the frauds committed by the Fianna fail TDs.

That's the nature of white-collar crime.

White-collar crime cannot ordinarily be detected like road traffic and public order offences. You cannot just visually detect it. Someone has to go and report their suspicions.

hfallada

michael999999 wrote: »

And they were only prosecuted because a newspaper discovered the frauds committed by the Fianna fail TDs.

The whole Fianna fail organization needs to be investigated by CAB and Revenue. Criminality seems to be systemic and there seems to be a culture of decwit and self enrichment!

And SF has never had connections to shady organisations? I cant understand why everyone screams how corrupt FF was and yet turns a blind eye to the actions of SF.

Revenue and CAB are independent from the Government. We dont live in Russia, where the investigations stop because someone in Government says so. If there was an illegality regarding these off shore accounts. There would have been arrests already. Ivor Callays fraud case didnt get swept under the rug because he was a former TD. He was charged like anyone else

michael999999

hfallada wrote: »

And SF has never had connections to shady organisations? I cant understand why everyone screams how corrupt FF was and yet turns a blind eye to the actions of SF.

Revenue and CAB are independent from the Government. We dont live in Russia, where the investigations stop because someone in Government says so. If there was an illegality regarding these off shore accounts. There would have been arrests already. Ivor Callays fraud case didnt get swept under the rug because he was a former TD. He was charged like anyone else

Why hadn't the head of revenue a copy of the whistle blowers report last week?

Why did Fianna fail bring in an amnesty to protect the original Ansbacher account holders?

Why did Richard Bruton keep the report for so long?

It all stinks, and unfortunately well never find out the truth because Irish politics is a corrupt circle of friends!