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The Hunt
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10-11-2014 2:51am#1I am posting this in equestrian forum at the suggestion of a moderator who closed the original post for being in the wrong section.
I understand that there are horse lovers who would never put their animal through a fox hunt, because they're true animal lovers.
My family were originally farmer/landowners and I grew up with country ways and attitudes. I understand that sometimes there may be need to "control" certain animal populations and this can be achieved somewhat humanely if deemed necessary . It is the recent attitude of hunt enthusiasts that I have experienced that I have a problem with.
I live in a residential area on the edge of a small town in mid Leinster. On my road there is a narrow entrance to a small GAA grounds and an entrance to a small light industry/commercial estate. The road is marked at both ends with "Local traffic only" signs.
Very recently my neighbourhood saw the Hunt move in and take over the whole road, the light industry estate and Gaa car park. Nothing I can say about private property, but I was incensed to see horse trucks/lorries, jeeps with horse trailers and private cars, come in and park illegally with all four wheels on the public foot path blocking it.
Incensed to see the road turned in to an impromptu car park/ farm yard.
Horse boxes left unattended that were secured to ESB poles by running chains across the remaining width of the footpath at ankle height and padlocking them to the pole.
Some boxes left their side doors open swinging in the wind and hitting off garden walls.
The road was at times completely blocked at the entrances with no marshalling. Vehicles were parked under traffic lights at a main junction. Marked fire hydrants blocked.
Horses using sections of the footpath and all of the road as a toilet with nothing cleaned up after. Ironically there are signs warning of fines for dog fouling. People abusing you in front of your small children you when you asked who was going to clean up the animal fouling
Some riders at times and where they could, using the footpath to ride their horses.
There was no way a child's buggy could travel the footpath as it was blocked by the vehicles left as their owners participated. One had to push the buggy out on to the road wheels through horse mess, avoiding many horses and other traffic.
My drive way was not completely blocked, but partially so, enough that it was impossible to get my vehicle through.
Stewards on off road unlicensed, and as such uninsured, ATV's thought it ok to use public roads, carrying up to 3 passengers and all with no helmets, just one marshal wearing one hiviz to keep them all safe. They were marshals after all and if they had to go as fast as the vehicle would allow them to with those children on board, then that seemed OK, because they were important.
Roads and narrow fire roads had vehicles and trailers parked in such a way that an emergency vehicle would never get through in a hurry.
I cannot understand why the selfish attitude of these people is tolerated in modern society. Why do these people think that because they are a "respectable" group in society and that its only for the day and it is in the name of some token charity or some such other excuse, and that the size of their total numbers, makes it all acceptable.
It all reminds me of my Grandmother telling stories of the days of when the local gentry in top hat and their cronies came damaging hedges, leaving open gates, churning up the ground, spooking sheep in lamb, and entering land without permission because the fox had turned that way. The Hunt did pay compensation for their actions, but you were the worst for asking and did it stop them from doing it all again next time?
If hunt enthusiasts wish to dispel their generally poor image where they think it's OK to destroy an animal in a most inhumane way, just because it's legal, you would think they would do their best to treat a residential area with respect. To try curry favour for their "sport". Maybe its just that they are too arrogant to care?
If any individual behaved in such a way they would fall foul of the law.
If another community in Irish society had used an residential area as a temporary halting site/ horse fair, blocking roads... depositing animal faeces; there would have been outrage. Gardai present and the like. When others posted youtube videos of running sulkies up the hard shoulder of the M7 at 6 in the morning there were media reports and promises from the authorities that they would clamp down.
So how are these people/ organizations such as this, allowed behave in this way and treat peoples neighbourhoods and the law with such disrespect?Tagged:0
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You are obviously upset about this
Why don't you find out who they were and what they were doing there and write the same things into your letter to the hunt secretary. OR charity ride organisers secretary
Was it a charity ride or a hunt.?
How do you know it was a "hunt "
You are right thou it's not right to block footpathh's etc or ride on them blocking pedestrians
Have you proof of this photographic or video evidence?
However I think this is an issue for the local hunt \ charity ride organisers to deal with.
It depends but some hunts some I say are very strict at where they park up and will send out a text beforehand to advise on parking etc.
If it was near a gaa grounds and the club was used to me it sounds more like a charity ride out.
Were there many stewards
Why didn't you approach one of those
I think the issue of quads bikes is an issue for the guards if you think they had no insurance and no helmet s etc.
Have you proof of no insurance?
Did you see their insurance certificate?
Were the children on board the quad children of the man driving it? It's his responsibility to ensure that they have headgear.
However I don't know of a hunt who go around on quads that's what leads me to think it was a charity ride out.
The more I think about this the more I'm led to think it was a charity ride out as opposed to a hunt.
A quick search on done deals equestrian notice board page with your county will bring up a contact no of organisers and go down that route of complaining.
A lot of people who attend these have never hunted or know hunt etiquette.
Some have zero respect for residents walkers or respect for parking on or near people's property.
There are many charity rides being run in coordination with gaa clubs too why dont you ask around
alot of charity ride outs have ABSOLUTELY NO affiliation to any hunt or harrier club.
Were there hounds involved?
If people were abusing you why didn't you report them?
So you don't agree that a large group of people can come together and raise upwards of 3000 for temple street hospital down syndrome Ireland or cancer research or whatever is a bad idea?
I hope you never have to use the services of above named.
Some people have and are extremely grateful for hunt or charity ride organisers to fundraise.
However this is not a fox hunting issue about them spooking pregnant sheep or entering lands without permission.
This seems to be an organised event from your description. So i would not yet go down the route of slating fox hunts when they may not have anything to do with this.
Have you a residents association why dont you all get together and complain.0 -
Yes, it was upsetting and also intimidating, disgusting, frustrating and many other choice adjectives.
The point of my post was the attitude of those involved, that it never seems to change and what these people did, as members of a club/ organization or as guests of same, is unacceptable.
It brings the already sullied reputation of the "hunt" down even more, whether foxes were involved or not. Public perception, right or wrong, see ride outs and drag hunts as just practise for the real thing.
To say as you did, that this has nothing to do with fox hunts (with no proof just opinion to say that it wasn't a fox hunt) is very wrong
And whether it was a charity run, drag hunt or fox hunt no one within a large group of people should be allowed act in this way.
I am not sure what the point of your post is, it only seems to be trying very hard to pick holes in everything I posted in an attempt to disprove that it ever happened or was exaggerated to an extent that it needs belittling.
Asking for further proof.
Am I sure it was a fox hunt? Why didn't I report verbal abuse? Did I take photo's? Why didn't I approach the stewards?
Did I ask or see insurance certificates? How ridiculous. are you saying an unlicensed off road vehicle with off road tyres, no doe or nct, carrying 3 children hanging on where they could and an adult on the one fitted seat will be covered by any insurance on a public road, And that I have stopped them and demand to see an insurance policy before complaining?
Next you will be telling me to gather samples of manure for DNA testing.
And then in case it is true and unexaggerated, you add "A lot of people who attend these have never hunted or know hunt etiquette. Some have zero respect for residents walkers or respect for parking on or near people's property.", in a attempt to distance the hunt proper from the oikes.
The fact that a hunt knows about and expects "people who attend these...(who do not) know hunt etiquette" and feel that they need to send a blanket sms to half the attendee's, in a misguided belief that covers the clubs responsibility towards bad behaviour, is no excuse. They had eyes and could see the sh*t, the blocked paths etc and did nothing.
Making it in aid of charity is no excuse to act in this way. And to suggest that I should be grateful that funds were being raised in case I ever need the services of that charity is offensive.
Most charities if made fully aware of how their fundraisers caused such upset, would wish not to allow their name be used. They would not allow their good name became tarnished by the acts of law breaking and anti social behaviour.
I would have been more receptive to your post and been prepared to listen to another POV if you hadn't argued so poorly. Or maybe denial was the only tack you could take considering the circumstances.0 -
I think you should post in the soap box forum as opposed making a personal attack on me or anyone else in the equestrian forum.maybe you should just go out and protest about these things and put your energies into that0
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Before I reply properly Op, are you looking for it to be explained or are you just ranting and will continue no matter what is said?0
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No I am not ranting, and am not posting in a violent and angry manner. I am posting and replying to posts about an issue that I experienced.
In doing so I wish to highlight how people can justifiably become aggrieved by the actions of others and suggesting that it's about time these selfish ways changed, for the good of everyone including hunt enthusiasts.
I am wishing to debate a subject and would possibly let my opinion be changed by listening to the reason of others.
I understand that others have a different view, I just ask that any reply not insult by calling in to doubt what actually happened by one that was not present and whom tries use assumption and conjecture in their retort to debunk the points put forward.
If you have a genuine explanation as to why anti social behaviour and flouting of the law like this is totally acceptable and should be excused without question, then please... post away.
If you can't support your arguments and if deserved, then expect your arguments to be rebuked. And if so, not see it as a personal attack or an attack on all things equestrian..
I cannot take seriously someone who takes just 5 minutes to read over a lengthy post like my last one, ruminate, and then formulate a reply, type and post it. (If you're going to be tarred with the "personal" brush, you might as well go with it).0 -
Op, your posts are quite long-winded, so apologies for what may seem an obvious question: are you more concerned about, in your words, the 'behaviour' of the group mounted on horseback, or are you complaining about the fact that this may have been a hunt who were hunting animals. Perhaps it's the way I'm reading it, but the 2 complaints seem to be merged together, with one argument fuelling the other.0
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I think not. An internet troll is someone whom antagonises other forumites by posting unfounded comments solely for their own enjoyment.
So again you're denying that it happened. Do yourself a favour and look up "flamer".0 -
Well maybe explain then in a few words what is it then that is the issue??0
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Op, your posts are quite long-winded, so apologies for what may seem an obvious question: are you more concerned about, in your words, the 'behaviour' of the group mounted on horseback, or are you complaining about the fact that this may have been a hunt who were hunting animals. Perhaps it's the way I'm reading it, but the 2 complaints seem to be merged together, with one argument fuelling the other.
Thank you, a decent question. No I am not a fan of fox hunting but am not actively against it, there are far more barbaric things happening in this country.
My posts my be lengthy because often when you use few words the readers are forced draw their own inference. Sorry if you find them tedious or wearisome.0 -
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Well maybe explain then in a few words what is it then that is the issue??
I thought I had in the OP, the first thing I wrote after creating foundation to my background:
"It is the recent attitude of hunt enthusiasts that I have experienced that I have a problem with"
And again in the first reply to you after I agreed with you that it was upsetting at the time, when I said:
"The point of my post was the attitude of those involved"0 -
Thank you, a decent question. No I am not a fan of fox hunting but am not actively against it, there are far more barbaric things happening in this country.
My posts my be lengthy because often when you use few words the readers are forced draw their own inference. Sorry if you find them tedious or wearisome.
So what is the issue here then I don't understand.
You launched an attack on me previously so I don't fully understand why you are posting
If it's a safety issue why dont you report to the organisers of the "hunt " or whatever group.
If you think people were rude to you why didn't you phone guards what is it that you are here to discuss is it one matter or a lot of issues?0 -
Guys, can we have less of the bickering please and just deal with the topic in hand. We all know it can be quite an emotive topic, but can we please try to keep things rational, polite and on-topic. Thanks.0
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Guys, can we have less of the bickering please and just deal with the topic in hand. We all know it can be quite an emotive topic, but can we please try to keep things rational, polite and on-topic. Thanks.
Of course. But I'm unsure what the topic is. I'm genuine. When I say that. .
Is it the issue of people parking on the path horse ****e on the road or the jockey door banging off a garden wall?0 -
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So what is the issue here then I don't understand.
You launched an attack on me previously so I don't fully understand why you are posting
If it's a safety issue why dont you report to the organisers of the "hunt " or whatever group.
If you think people were rude to you why didn't you phone guards what is it that you are here to discuss is it one matter or a lot of issues?
Yes I got it a long time ago that you were having difficulty in understanding and that you consider a criticism of weak arguments and vague points, a personal attack. You really don't have to mention that to me any more, it serves no purpose
When did I say that I haven't been in contact with all the various bodies you keep mentioning in your unsolicited advice? Why do you keep assuming I haven't?
The main question I asked in the OP was why did certain riders, spectators, organizers, club members, whoever, think that it was perfectly acceptable to behave in this way? And that is why I posted.
Can I take it that you condone such behaviour? The fact that you haven't condemned ANY of it, and question it ever happened, it is rather conspicuous.
C0 -
I had reservations about posting this in the equestrian section, reasoning that those interested in things horsey may be biased towards the support of hunting by horse.
I had hoped to find open mindedness and fairness, but from all that I have read, denial, belittling the issue, questioning whether it even happened, being called a tedious boring troll, only reinforces the idea that people involved with horses do think this attitude and behaviour is perfectly acceptable.
I seem to have been proved correct as no one has come out to condemn or justifiably explain why this behaviour is acceptable.
Maybe the mention of hunting by horse in a negative light only serves to make people jump to "anti blood sports" conclusions, I don't know. But what is clear is that you have let yourselves down, you have done nothing to improve the negative reputation that the sport has.
Best of luck to all.0 -
The main question I asked in the OP was why did certain riders, spectators, organizers, club members, whoever, think that it was perfectly acceptable to behave in this way? And that is why I posted.
You would need to speak to the people involved to answer that I suppose. You could also put in a complaint to the organisers, as other have suggested it shouldn't be difficult to find out who it was.
You mentioned people parking on footpaths, running chains across footpaths and blocking entrances - these are issues for the Gardaí. Did anyone contact them about this? If not then it is not a case of them getting away with treating the law with disrespect and them being treated differently. The authorities can only do anything to individuals or to organisations if they know about incidents occurring. There's only special treatment and 'getting away with it' if the Gardaí refused to act. And that would be a whole other issue.
To be honest, confronting anyone when you have your children in tow (or even if you haven't) is not a good idea. Report the wrongdoing and leave it to the professionals. If they do nothing, escalate.
I don't hunt but to be honest your inference that anyone who does is putting their horse through some ordeal is probably not the best way to start a post if what you want is a polite discussion in an equestrian forum.0 -
Some people were simply born without manners - unfortunately you have experienced this in terms of a "hunt" or an XC run. I think the point is - it is a complete lack of respect and disregard for other people - however I assume that these people probably go through life like that - it is a totally seperate issue to the fact that they were engaging in Equestrian Activity IMO.0
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I had reservations about posting this in the equestrian section, reasoning that those interested in things horsey may be biased towards the support of hunting by horse (and from your description, I don't think it sounds like a hunt).
I had hoped to find open mindedness and fairness, but from all that I have read, denial, belittling the issue, questioning whether it even happened, being called a tedious boring troll, only reinforces the idea that people involved with horses do think this attitude and behaviour is perfectly acceptable.
I seem to have been proved correct as no one has come out to condemn or justifiably explain why this behaviour is acceptable.
Maybe the mention of hunting by horse in a negative light only serves to make people jump to "anti blood sports" conclusions, I don't know. But what is clear is that you have let yourselves down, you have done nothing to improve the negative reputation that the sport has.
Best of luck to all.
I think one of the biggest problems here is that it hasn't been established whether or not it was a hunt or a charity ride out, and that some people, justified or not, feel that you're basing your argument on the assumption that it was a hunt, and, whether you intended it or not, it comes across in places that you are not 'pro-hunting' (although you did clarify this in a later post).
I posted a warning to all to keep things civil, with less bickering and accusations as to whether one is a troll of being personally attacked. Perhaps this is why more people haven't replied, or the fact that, after a weekend of horsey activities and today being a day of work, they haven't yet had a chance to reply.
The reason why posters may be slightly 'suspicious' and immediately thinking that you may be an 'anti' hunting person is because relatively often we have a thread or two brought up attacking people for hunting and/or supporting hunting. We even had one thread about bull fighting suggesting that anyone who admired the skill in the equestrian part (we're talking horsemanship here, and the ability to communicate with the horse) and not condoning bull fighting, deserved to be gored, etc. etc. etc. When we experience this kinds of attitudes, it's very hard for people not to be suspicious and skeptical.0 -
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I think this needs to be broken down into pointsI am posting this in equestrian forum at the suggestion of a moderator who closed the original post for being in the wrong section.
I see no problem with posting this in this forumI understand that there are horse lovers who would never put their animal through a fox hunt, because they're true animal lovers.
This is where you started pissing off people, I would consider myself an animal lover, I have two very well cared for dogs, two well cared for cats, and at any one time I could have up to 12 horses under my care also. BUT according to you because I hunt, I am not a "true" animal lover. Thanks for making me realise how cruel I am!My family were originally farmer/landowners and I grew up with country ways and attitudes. I understand that sometimes there may be need to "control" certain animal populations and this can be achieved somewhat humanely if deemed necessary . It is the recent attitude of hunt enthusiasts that I have experienced that I have a problem with.
Can you confirm whether they were hunt enthusiasts or charity ride followers? There is a differenceI live in a residential area on the edge of a small town in mid Leinster. On my road there is a narrow entrance to a small GAA grounds and an entrance to a small light industry/commercial estate. The road is marked at both ends with "Local traffic only" signs.
touching on the league of gentlemen here! What town do you live in if you don't mind me asking, we may be able to narrow down where to aim your complaint, as I know that the both the hunt and the charity run crowd I follow, would like to hear this, so they can rectify the matterVery recently my neighbourhood saw the Hunt move in and take over the whole road, the light industry estate and Gaa car park. Nothing I can say about private property, but I was incensed to see horse trucks/lorries, jeeps with horse trailers and private cars, come in and park illegally with all four wheels on the public foot path blocking it.
well we do have to park our range rovers somewhere! can't be stepping out into mud!
On a realistic note let, again where are you? you need to direct this to the hunt/charity run so the matter can be addressedIncensed to see the road turned in to an impromptu car park/ farm yard.
was there cows?Horse boxes left unattended that were secured to ESB poles by running chains across the remaining width of the footpath at ankle height and padlocking them to the pole.
there are ignorant people in all walks of life, not just the equestrian world, but they were just fearful of their horseboxes being robbed!Some boxes left their side doors open swinging in the wind and hitting off garden walls.
sometimes people get nervous before a run/hunt, and perhaps they just forgot, it would have been nice if you closed them for them!The road was at times completely blocked at the entrances with no marshalling. Vehicles were parked under traffic lights at a main junction. Marked fire hydrants blocked.
did you inform the owners of the vehicles of this?Horses using sections of the footpath and all of the road as a toilet with nothing cleaned up after. Ironically there are signs warning of fines for dog fouling. People abusing you in front of your small children you when you asked who was going to clean up the animal fouling
what sort of abuse? and it is not a legal requirement to pick up horse/sheep/cow dung from the road or path as it is not toxic the same way dog poo is, do you poo pick after your dog every time it dumps a load?
Some riders at times and where they could, using the footpath to ride their horses.
There was no way a child's buggy could travel the footpath as it was blocked by the vehicles left as their owners participated. One had to push the buggy out on to the road wheels through horse mess, avoiding many horses and other traffic.
My drive way was not completely blocked, but partially so, enough that it was impossible to get my vehicle through.
Stewards on off road unlicensed, and as such uninsured, ATV's thought it ok to use public roads, carrying up to 3 passengers and all with no helmets, just one marshal wearing one hiviz to keep them all safe. They were marshals after all and if they had to go as fast as the vehicle would allow them to with those children on board, then that seemed OK, because they were important.
Roads and narrow fire roads had vehicles and trailers parked in such a way that an emergency vehicle would never get through in a hurry.
I cannot understand why the selfish attitude of these people is tolerated in modern society. Why do these people think that because they are a "respectable" group in society and that its only for the day and it is in the name of some token charity or some such other excuse, and that the size of their total numbers, makes it all acceptable.
It all reminds me of my Grandmother telling stories of the days of when the local gentry in top hat and their cronies came damaging hedges, leaving open gates, churning up the ground, spooking sheep in lamb, and entering land without permission because the fox had turned that way. The Hunt did pay compensation for their actions, but you were the worst for asking and did it stop them from doing it all again next time?
If hunt enthusiasts wish to dispel their generally poor image where they think it's OK to destroy an animal in a most inhumane way, just because it's legal, you would think they would do their best to treat a residential area with respect. To try curry favour for their "sport". Maybe its just that they are too arrogant to care?
If any individual behaved in such a way they would fall foul of the law.
If another community in Irish society had used an residential area as a temporary halting site/ horse fair, blocking roads... depositing animal faeces; there would have been outrage. Gardai present and the like. When others posted youtube videos of running sulkies up the hard shoulder of the M7 at 6 in the morning there were media reports and promises from the authorities that they would clamp down.
So how are these people/ organizations such as this, allowed behave in this way and treat peoples neighbourhoods and the law with such disrespect?
I got bored0 -
This thread reminds me of this short film. What is left when the symbols are taken away?
http://vimeo.com/754325760 -
From what the op said thats a usual site outside a rural church on a sunday morning, cars abandoned everywhere0
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Same at the local GAA pitch with a match or training in progress.0
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I also think this was more like a charity ride than a hunt. Did you see hounds , OP, how were the riders dressed?0 -
OP - I read your first post and tbh it does come across that you don't like people who hunt / that they are not animal lovers / that they are stuck top hat wearers up and that was before you even got into the body of the complaint!
Leaving all that aside there is a vast difference between a hunt and a charity ride - yes there are horses and riders in both but it's similar to saying that those that play rugby are no different from football players.
If it was not a hunt - then the rant about hunting is completely irrelevant
Firstly I would try and identify who the group were - ask around someone will know
Contact one of the organisers and let then know that some riders blocked paths and left horse droppings etc which caused problems to you
Do you have a residents organisation? Organise that any future ride be given their contact details so that any issues or problems can be reported
Horse riding in all its forms provides a hugely popular pastime for many people - adults and children included. Some may be well off but the majority may have to borrow, share or hire a horse to go out on a ride. They are ordinary people who have jobs, families, pets... No one goes out deliberately to cause problems but if there are problems - then find out who caused them but try not to randomly attack a specific group just because the may or may not been there0
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